Castrol Syntorq in the NV4500

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One of the more vocal (and sometimes abrasive) TDR members e-mailed me a message that reads in part:

"Joe ,
I don't want you to be an oil salesman.
I just would appreciate it if you would stop swearing on a bible about the Castrol and warrantees. You are just plain wrong, and you send the nervous nellies into a fit everytime you say it. It takes weeks to calm their fears!!! You drive me crazy! I'm trying to read your article, and the phones ringing, with " JOE SAYS THIS ! JOE SAYS THAT!

Ask them to put that warranty void bit in writing. It won't happen. "

IT IS IN WRITING. Read the label on the PTO covers of any NV4500. I quote the label in its entirety:

>NOTICE<
TRANSMISSION _MUST_ BE REFILLED WITH
CASTROL SYNTORQ LT
GM P/N 12346190
CHRYSLER P/N 4874459
----------------------------------------------
UNLESS THIS PROCEDURE IS FOLLOWED:
# SEVERE DAMAGE WILL RESULT
# TRANSMISSION WARRANTY IS NULL AND VOID
-------------------------------------------------

PTO INSTALLER
INSTALLATION OF A PTO UNIT REQUIRES
--- CORRECT SHIM AND GASKET
--- ENDPLAYMUST BE SET ACCORDING TO
PTO MANUFACTURERS SPECIFICATIONS

OK, Sir? Just crawl under your Ram before flaming me next time. I stand by my writings and have reason for them. Use any lube you want but I feel that I must warn people to read the label on the PTO cover first.

Joe

 

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Joe,
Just for the record,it wasnt me. My two cents worth while i am here is this.
As long as a particular oil meets the required specifications set down by the manufacture for their product they cannot deny you warranty on that basis.
Whether you have a car or a lawnmower, all oil manufactures are required to state their specifications.
Bill
Diesel Transmission Technology

 

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With all due respect to the Mighty Joe Donnelly, whose technical advice I have sought on numerous occassions, and who writes wonderful articles, which are the topic of many GLTDR discussions,

You are just plain wrong, sir!

Yes it does say that on the PTO cover! We AGREE on that! (I read that as I was removing it to install the Geno's filter. )
BUT, that is a scare tactic for the mechanics. They sell a lot of $20 a quart oil using that little sticker, showing it to the customer.

READ your owners manual Joe!

I QUOTE,

" Use Mopar Synthetic Manual Transmission lubricant(Part Number 4637579) or equivalent synthetic lubricant conforming to the requirements of the API category GL-4. " End quote.
That's how Dodge covers their kiester.

I can not vouch for any other oil, but the Amsoil EXCEEDS these specs, AND IS FULLY WARRENTEED BY AMSOIL, THAT IT WILL WORK IN THESE TRANSMISSIONS!

Joe, have you not read the Magnuson-Moss act?

It has only been discussed 100 times on this sight!!!

Federal Law does not allow this sort of thing to protect the consumer. But the uneducated fall for it time and again!
I will be posting a PDF file later on this subject,explaining the law and Amsoil's warranty.

Go ask your local dealership to put it in writing. They will not do it.
What is it going to take for you to reverse your thoughts on this matter?

Good old 36 grit,vocal and proud of it,
Gene


To Bill,
Now that you know it was me, you can retract your statement if you wish!!! hehehe!

 

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Joe,
I too want the record to show it wasn't me that sent the e-mail, but I do have to go along with Bill Kondolay and his remarks.

To further his remarks, the "Magnusson-Moss Act", a federal law, states that a manufacturer cannot require the use of any specific brand of lubricant or any OTHER PART, unless it is provided by the manufacturer free of charge under the terms of the warranty!
To affect the Manufacturers warranty, the lubricant or part, must be DIRECTLY responsible for the failure. This of course would have to be PROVEN. The warranty by the way, can not be voided by verbal instruction only, and if voided, must be in writing, stating the SPECIFIC reason.

Best regards,

Wayne

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94'SLT 4X4 AT/White in color. Factory Tow Hooks & Running Boards. Amsoil By-Pass filter, Amsoil Air cleaner,and all fluids are Amsoil. Optima "Red Top" batteries.
BD exhaust Brake, BD Torque Lock, BD Torque Converter, Dr. Performance Stage II Injection Pump. Mag-Hytec Diff Cover,Mag-Hytec Transmission Pan, Isspro Pyro, Boost,Oil temp Gauges mounted in 3 Gauge post mount. One gauge monitors Engine Oil, Trans, Diff. Temps.
Wayne Owen

 

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I thought the Amsoil meets GL-5 not GL-4 so it would not be strictly equivalent. Is it cheaper than $54 per gallon (the required amount)? What's the point of using a lube with less history of successful performance in the transmission? Lots of companies make GL-5 synthetic. For example, Torco makes a good 75-90 GL6 lube and it would be a bit cheaper than the Castrol. I still use the recommended lube with a long history of good performance in the transmission.

Magnuson Moss merely guarantees lawyers the opportunity to make large fees while my transmission is still broken. The dealer may still argue that the PTO cover makes the case clear, and the manual says "equivalent" which I will need expensive data and more lawyers to argue about.

Overall I don't see the point in vigorously arguing for some other lube when the recommended stuff is available at a decent price. Even changing it every 35,000 miles does not add up to much money over using a cheaper lube. But then, I change the engine oil "too often" also.

 

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Webmasters,

Don't you have a 'stand in the corner for sniveling & whining' policy?

 

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If the PTO cover has a dimple chad can we assume that someone intended to change the oil? Therefor DC must pay for rebuild of a transmission destroyed by lack of clean lube?

Seriously
I understand what Joe says as;
"for the risk/return ratio, it's not worth trying something less proven by experience". ($2000-$5'000 transmission repair job vs $20 oil cost savings)x(SynTorque=proven/others=said to be OK)
Buyer beware, especially when someone is trying to sell you something

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1972 Chinook class C with 96/215 5spd, 4/5" exh, 4"BD, MagHytec, 85gal fuel, K&N RE0880, AutoMeter, 370's, BD gov kit, BD afc kit, 16cm, yada-yada-yada
www.fostertruck.com/cummins

 

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LarryB, you have made a good point. I did not find any change interval in the service manual, but the draining is accomplished by removing a bottom PTO cover bolt. I asked NV a couple years ago at the SEMA show, and the rep said to change it every 50K if you wanted to be real nice to the trans. I have seen one that pulled heavy loads for 60K and I think the fluid should have been changed long before then. However, the change interval is after the expiration of the drivetrain warranty, so Dodge will probably say you are on your own. The question for us is "how far out on that rope do we want to go?" I have a gallon of Sta-lube petro-based 80-90 wt "GL-5+" in my garage. Should I save money and use it--why, I think it cost me upwards of $6 or 8 for the gallon jug? If my transmission doesn't grenade with the usage cycle I give it, does that make it the ideal lube for everyone else?

Sorry the Amsoil dealers on the list are upset. If you give me a gallon of your lube and a new spare NV4500, I'll try it. . . maybe. But, I'll carry the spare around with me, filled with Castrol Syntorq LT. #ad

 

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i'll soon be replacing the GetTrash with an 4500 I'll use Castrol AND be changing it @ 20,000 miles. I change the GetTrash now @ 25,000. The Cost outweigh the problems down the road. But then again I change my oil ONCE a week which varies between 3,200-3,800 miles a week of driving. Sure it cuts down on $$ but its a small amount Vs. another eng. #ad
Mike

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92 Std cab. LE. 215 P-pump reman cummins motor. 5-speed, 3. 54, 105 gal Aux tank in bed. Borgeson shaft, Banks Power pack. 12cm Hot end housing w/wastegate. 4" Exh, Pyro & boost guage, oil temp guage. E-brake. Galaxy DX99V, Used as a Hotshot/express Reg. at 36,000 lbs in 48 states. Custom built DOT approved Sleeper unit. & Texas Star 400 http://hometown. aol.com/hotshothauler/myhomepage/business.html 2000, 3500 being setup for Hotshot work as we speak. 9500 miles todate
2000 FL-70 Pulling a 48' low boy.

 

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Interesting comments
I Just returned an e-mail to a fellow TDR member as i told him i have inexces of 700,ooo mi. on my 96 all bearings and synco's and such are still the factoy(oe) installed parts,I drain and refill every 100k and at that time i remove the PTO cover and check inside still looks and shift great have grossed as high as 32k in 98 deg temps running from NC. to as far as SD. most of the time i was under 26k. And as i and most
people looked for a lower cost lube that would stand the test oF miles.
I went with castrol syntec 75 w 90 Gl 5. I dont see any tarinsh or pieces/parts in the bottom of the case a drain's.
As in racing if someone wants to a tare down inspection send a e-mail and we will work the details.
At about $7 a qt you can change more often and still pocket a saving's.
As in a vote it is your choice. .

 

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Just for the record... the first lube change I did on my 5 speed I used AmsOil 80W-90 GL-4 gear lube. I ran it 35K and then sent in a sample to Blackstone and it showed under normal metals. The second change I am using AmsOil Ser. 2000 75W-90 GL-5 and I can tell you the trans shifts better now than it did with either of the the others. I went against the factory advise and as with our engine mods---I AM MY OWN WARRANTY STATION.

In the past I have rebuilt lots of manual transmissions most had failed from lack of lube. The only thing that can be effected by GL-5 fluid in our NV 4500 are the sycro rings.

I am comfortable running my AmsOil Ser 2000 and hopefully it wasn't me that flamed Joe while sleep webbing. LOL

AJoe great article, now can I used Standard trans's upgraded nut when I replace my clutch as a bandaide?

 

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Just for the same record... I drained the Castrol Syntorq out of my "99" NV4500 at 2K and filled with Amsoil Series 2000 - 75W-90. At 65K it works great. Oh yes, I've always been my own warranty station, I learned long ago that letting the dealership touch my truck was like going in the hospital, you always come out with something worse than you went in with!!
If I rembember right, I heard that NV had lube failures bench teating the first 6 spds and they went to a different lube. I think Texaco was the low bidder on that lube. Maybe someone with a late 6spd. could look at their PTO cover and let us know what it says.

CPFF

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CUMMINS POWERED FAST FORD

 

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CPFF
How much power are you putting through yours? I couldn't tell by your thread.
Thanks, just curious.
Larry

 

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As I recall, Castrol doesn't even have a refinery; rather their oil is made by others to their specifications.
All the more reason for me to belief they do NOT have the market cornered on quality. I belive there are a number of oils out there that do as good a job, if not better, than Castrol.

 

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Joe,
You mentioned GL-5 vs. GL-4.
The Amsoil series 2000 75w-90 is a GL-5, BUT, it also meets API spec MT-1, which addresses the soft metal argument.
So, you are right Joe, The Amsoil is not equivalent, it is much better. And yes, it is less expensive. Which tells me Castrol and Mopar are just GOUGING the Consumer.

Everybody whines how much Amsoil is, then they line up to buy Castrol with a smile on their face because " Dodge says so. " ( As they COMPLETELY DESTROY the rest of their warranty by BOMBing insanely!!! I believe you fit into this category, Joe. )

This lube is not only SAFE, but exceeds ALL NEW VENTURE SPECS. It should be the oil of choice to all BOMBers and trailer haulers alike, who want long life out of their 5 speed.
Using this Lube WILL NOT void your DC warranty, period. Anyone who says that it does is wrong, Amsoil should be notified. It will be taken care of.
Amsoil has been taking care of the misinformed consumer for over 25 years, and DC's little sticker is not going to change Law.
AND, IT IS WARRANTED BY AMSOIL FOR USE IN THIS TRANSMISSION.

We have all talked about how Dodge has ADMITTED these trans are only designed for 100,000 miles. Now why would they put an awesome oil in, when pretty good, low bidder, works just fine?
My Castrol did not resemble gear lube at 26,000 miles. TONS of metal, and the 3rd gear synchros were on their way out. I switched to something better because I did not think the Castrol would give me the durability that the Amsoil would.

I don't really care what anybody uses, I just don't like to hear false information about warranties being voided for this or that.

Does anyone have a copy of Castrol's warranty?

Gene

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WANTED: Wrecked Dodges. 1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled
Member of TDR,LIC-ROC,GLTDR,NRA www.awdist.com

[This message has been edited by MGM (edited 11-24-2000). ]

 

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LarryB
In answer to your question, not much -- every day driver w/centerforce smooooth clutch. With wheel hopping street tires it turned 86 mph & 16. 3 in the 1/4 mi. The pump is putting out 250cc at breakaway (3200rpm), thru 275 inj. with timing at 15. 9deg. Runs smooth and averages 20 mpg. Not as much power as JD is running I'm sure!!!

CPFF

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CUMMINS POWERED FAST FORD

 

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Gene, Gene, please get off the rant mode. No one is attacking your credibility as an Amsoil bomber. No one said Amsoil isn't good lube or that you can't sell it any more.

I object to being called someone who bombs insanely. My poor old sickly Ram runs on #2 diesel only and I have never been stuck at the side of the road broken. I think you are just jealous #ad


Your warranty is Dodge's guarantee that your Ram will run like stock for 36,000/100,000 miles. If you don't want it to run like that, what good is a warranty? Why replace stock parts with more stock parts if they don't perform like you want? Why go away from Dodge's recommendation on lube in a $2500 transmission when you have stock power, a warranty from Dodge, and consider bombing to be an act of insanity?

If I gotta go to Bombaholics anonymous, you haveta go to Amsoilaholics anonymous. #ad


Hehehehe this discussion is almost as much fun as the post wars and 12 vs. 24 valve war. I didn't think I would strike such a sensitive nerve on something so mundane as transmission oil. I guess some folks spin up as easily as a Ram's turbo. Think we can get to 100 posts on this thread? Unbelievable! #ad

 

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Sure Joe, as soon as you get off your "I'm Joe Donnelly and your not, so I must be right. " mode!!!! #ad


My rant started with nothing to do with Amsoil, but with false warranty voiding scare tactics. YOU brought up Amsoil because Steve St. LaurAnt told you it would be good entertainment.

How come I'm ranting, but you're "informing"?
Double standard here!

Great Joe, I bought this truck to run forever, and you tell me it is going to explode after 36,000. TOO late! 87,000 and counting,50,000 bombed, 8 sled pulls, and Amsoiled from 26,000! Good thing!

So I see you admit the Castrol is only good for stock use, and is wore out after 36,000.
So why are YOU replacing STOCK oil with MORE of the same?

Should you not bomb your lubes also?

My conclusion:
Your brother-in-law works at Castrol. You have no choice but to push an adequate, at best, lubricant, or they will lay him off, and he will move in with you.
I don't blame you.
OR,
I think you are so concerned with bombing, you have gotten lazy on your research on other componets. You have settled for "good enough" on this, where on everything else you MUST HAVE the BEST! If they don't sell it, you make it!
I still ain't got you figgerd out Joe. #ad

How about I send you the oil, with an IOU for the trans if the oil blows it, YOU send me a clutch! We'll compare! It will be great fun!


If you want a REAL fight, I dare you to post what you put in your differentials! #ad


Gene


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WANTED: Wrecked Dodges. 1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled
Member of TDR,LIC-ROC,GLTDR,NRA www.awdist.com

 

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I love it! Such entertainment. No, Steve did not tell me anything about bringing up Amsoil and I don't recall bringing up any lube brand other than the OE stuff before Gene did. Hehehehehehehehehe I just lucked into his hot button I guess.

I am open to hearing about better transmission lubes, but so far I don't have any real data to work with, trannies that had known, hard usage histories, torn apart and checked. Perhaps the closest is tdrmbramr who has 700,000 on his (so much for the ugly rumor that NV intends it to last for 100,000--and I know of a number that have gone way over 100K). The needle bearings inside the mainshaft gears are caged and you won't get any pieces in the oil until way too late. The bearings on the ends of the cluster are standard tapered rollers and the gears won't show anything until scuffed or broken. I don't know what will show a problem first-- except for possbly the synchros that have a type of clutch material bonded to them. Someone who has money to burn could try different lubes vs. operating temp as one measurement. I have probes in the trans and diff, for example, and this comparison would help cancel out variables with load, ambient temp, etc.

I have enjoyed the discussion and am actually glad to hear of success stories with other lubes such as Syntec and Amsoil. I'm just not ready to bomb my truck yet #ad
Yep, 510 hp and totally stock [parts were in stock when installed, hehehe]

OK, Gene, lets go on to the diffs: I have Torco 75-140 in one and LE607 in the other. (really) And, I don't work, or anyone in my family, for any lube company. Maybe that's why I have something different in each place #ad
Oh, I do have Chevron in the engine (Delo) and transfer case (Dexron) but that is because I buy them at Costco who sells that brand. I have also used Castrol RX in the engine [I can hear the boo, hiss for using that name again #ad
]

Meanwhile, the other Amsoil fans and dealers, please don't get spun up. Just a bit of humor going on here, and would hate to get everyone upset. Dee Rawson, who uses Amsoil, knows I like to kid around and isn't going to take me too seriously. Besides, he is a lot bigger than I am. #ad

 

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Sigh... ... ...
Joe, I'm not even going to start, You are hopeless. I get chills just thinking about your garage shelf. I doubt you even know for sure if you have the right oil in each part!

I'm going back to my corner and work harder on my other TDR "Battles".
Besides, they are ALL easier to win than trying to sort through your oil shelf!
Someday I will make the trip to Vegas, and clean your garage out. You will feel ten years younger, and Sickly will fly once again, after all the abuse you have put him through.

One last word,
Amsoil cannot replace lost metal.

Bomb on$