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CDL Needed? 17,000 pound tri axle

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Cumminz,

So what? I haven't said a word about CDL requirements.

I'm very familiar with USDOT regulations. NC driver's license regulations are apparently similar to Texas. TX requires and I have a Class A Operator License. I surrendered my CDL A and converted it to a Class A Operator license.
 
HBarlow, I would encourage you to read them again!

I merely stated that the GCVWR of my '92 W-350 is 10,100 and that MY state will only register it for 10,000 and is "overweight" by definition by NOT registering for what's rated on the sticker inside the door. Toss in a few things and just a regular old pickup (without a trailer) is 'illegal' by law.

I NEVER contradicted myself in ANY statement or post since I own all but the tanker I mentioned above.

Since receiving the citation back in '01, I pay attention to the sticker on the door and on ANY trailer I hook up to regardless of being commercial or not.

I was cited in CO for being "overweight" just due to what the stickers added up to and NOT for the actual weight on the ground!! Taking the SAME thing in to account, I looked at the weight rating of my '91 Pete and the tanker hooked to it and by the same rules would yield an "overweight" citation if the #'s were added up the same way.

It doesn't work that way. You were cited because you did not have a CDL and because the actual or rated weight exceeded 26k.

The incident that earned you a ticket is completely unrelated to the maximum weight a state will allow you to register a vehicle for.
 
HB,

I think you need to clarify this statement a little. My truck is titled for 16k in NC. My truck and RV depending on how I have loaded it on a particular trip weighs from 25k to 27k. I am legal in NC. By USDOT regulations I do not by law have to enter an NC weight station nor can HP in NC require me to roll my rig onto a set of their portable scales. Since my 5er has a GVW over 10k I am required to have a class A NC drivers license (Not CDL). The over 26k I am not completely sure about but since it is an RV for recreational vehicle I am exempt from CDL. No RV motorcoach in NC are required to have CDL but class A drivers lecense if used for recreation... Large RV motorcoach used by Dale Jr. s race team maybe different story.

Cumminz,

This was the post where you entered into the discussion.

You were the only one who was talking about a need to have a CDL.
 
Mikey,

I don't understand much of what you are saying. You repeatedly mentioned registering for the combined weight of your truck and trailer. Why do that? Ordinarily, most states register all trucks and all trailers for their actual or rated maximum weight. I don't think you are familiar with DOT rules.

I have spoken of registering my trucks in the past for 26k only because I was hauling commercially, was pulling new unregistered trailers on which no weight tax had been paid.

All state vehicle codes are based on US DOT regulations. The only thing state legislatures can change is their own licensing and registration methods for their own residents.

It doesn't make sense to register a truck or trailer for it's empty weight. If you do, you will be in violation the first time you load either for use. If your home state appears to ignore the rules it may be only because you haven't operated on the highways and come to their attention.

Any time your vehicles, tow or towed, are registered for less than they actually weigh when loaded you are subject to enforcement action. Another state could ticket you for overweight or require you to obtain an overweight permit up to your actual weight.

Your reminder that I should "keep in mind ... ... . " I have been there and done it in the real world. I really don't need to be reminded how the system works. I have experienced it many times.

Again, the operative word is "commercial" not "for-profit. " Pulling a flatbed gooseneck trailer loaded with some else's backhoe for payment would be commercial activity for-profit. Hauling my own backhoe as part of my dirt moving business is commercial activity, not for-hire. Each requires a CDL A if combined actual or rated weight exceeds 26,000 lbs. (not 26,001 lbs. ) and if the trailer exceeds 10k lbs.

Anyone operating on the highways can and occasionally is subjected to scale weighing. RV operators are not exempt from the laws. They are only exempt from the requirement to have a CDL, keep logs, etc. RV owners are indeed subject to weight limits, can be weighed if DOT wants to spend time on them, and can be ticketed or placed out of service.

The reality is that DOT officers are so busy with commercial haulers they don't usually have time or interest in private RVers so RV owners are often but not always ignored.

And this is what I had said previously.

What is it my statement that makes you think I said you were required as a private RV owner to have a CDL?
 
Be patient HB, not all my responses are directed at you. As I run across additional info I will post it. Mike was also requesting clarification. When I find the statute on RVs being exempt to weighing I'll post it.
 
NC statutes

HB,



NC statutes 20-4. 01 20-51 20-88



I just got a phone call from NC DOT. They gave me these DOT laws and said that any truck over 10,000#s is required by NC law to enter weigh stations but they do not want RVers to weigh. They want them to pass behind the station. They also said that RVers fall under this requirement: Use my 3500 DRW for example... RVs are according to NCDOT self‑propelled property‑carrying vehicles.



I have to purchase enough tag to cover the weight that is distributed on the bed of the truck but the axles of the RV are exempt per NC statute 20-88;



**********************************************************



§ 20‑88. Property‑hauling vehicles.



(a) Determination of Weight. – For the purpose of licensing, the weight of self‑propelled property‑carrying vehicles shall be the empty weight and heaviest load to be transported, as declared by the owner or operator; provided, that any determination of weight shall be made only in units of 1,000 pounds or major fraction thereof, weights of over 500 pounds counted as 1,000 and weights of 500 pounds or less disregarded. The declared gross weight of self‑propelled property‑carrying vehicles operated in conjunction with trailers or semitrailers shall include the empty weight of the vehicles to be operated in the combination and the heaviest load to be transported by such combination at any time during the registration period, except that the gross weight of a trailer or semitrailer is not required to be included when the operation is to be in conjunction with a self‑propelled property‑carrying vehicle which is licensed for 6,000 pounds or less gross weight and the gross weight of such combination does not exceed 9,000 pounds, except wreckers as defined under G. S. 20‑4. 01(50). Those property‑hauling vehicles registered for 4,000 pounds shall be permitted a tolerance of 500 pounds above the weight permitted under the table of weights and rates appearing in subsection (b) of this section.



(b) The following fees are imposed on the annual registration of self‑propelled property‑hauling vehicles; the fees are based on the type of vehicle and its weight:







SCHEDULE OF WEIGHTS AND RATES







Rates Per Hundred Pound Gross Weight



Farmer Rate



Not over 4,000 pounds $0. 29



4,001 to 9,000 pounds inclusive . 40



9,001 to 13,000 pounds inclusive . 50



13,001 to 17,000 pounds inclusive . 68



Over 17,000 pounds . 77







Rates Per Hundred Pound Gross Weight



General Rate



Not over 4,000 pounds $0. 59



4,001 to 9,000 pounds inclusive . 81



9,001 to 13,000 pounds inclusive 1. 00



13,001 to 17,000 pounds inclusive 1. 36



Over 17,000 pounds 1. 54







(1) The minimum fee for a vehicle licensed under this subsection is twenty‑four dollars ($24. 00) at the farmer rate and twenty‑eight dollars ($28. 00) at the general rate.



(2) The term "farmer" as used in this subsection means any person engaged in the raising and growing of farm products on a farm in North Carolina not less than 10 acres in area, and who does not engage in the business of buying products for resale.



(3) License plates issued at the farmer rate shall be placed upon trucks and truck‑tractors that are operated for the primary purpose of carrying or transporting the applicant's farm products, raised or produced on the applicant's farm, and farm supplies. The license plates shall not be used on a vehicle operated in hauling for hire.



(4) "Farm products" means any food crop, livestock, poultry, dairy products, flower bulbs, or other nursery products and other agricultural products designed to be used for food purposes, including in the term "farm products" also cotton, tobacco, logs, bark, pulpwood, tannic acid wood and other forest products grown, produced, or processed by the farmer.



(5) The Division shall issue necessary rules and regulations providing for the recall, transfer, exchange or cancellation of "farmer" plates, when vehicle bearing such plates shall be sold or transferred.



(5a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this Chapter, license plates issued pursuant to this subsection at the farmer rate may be purchased for any three‑month period at one fourth of the annual fee.



(6) There shall be paid to the Division annually the following fees for "wreckers" as defined under G. S. 20‑4. 01(50): a wrecker fully equipped weighing 7,000 pounds or less, seventy‑five dollars ($75. 00); wreckers weighing in excess of 7,000 pounds shall pay one hundred forty‑eight dollars ($148. 00). Fees to be prorated monthly. Provided, further, that nothing herein shall prohibit a licensed dealer from using a dealer's license plate to tow a vehicle for a customer.



(c) The fee for a semitrailer or trailer is nineteen dollars ($19. 00) for each year or part of a year. The fee is payable each year. Upon the application of the owner of a semitrailer or trailer, the Division may issue a multiyear plate and registration card for the semitrailer or trailer for a fee of seventy‑five dollars ($75. 00). A multiyear plate and registration card for a semitrailer or trailer are valid until the owner transfers the semitrailer or trailer to another person or surrenders the plate and registration card to the Division. A multiyear plate may not be transferred to another vehicle.



The Division shall issue a multiyear semitrailer or trailer plate in a different color than an annual semitrailer or trailer plate and shall include the word "multiyear" on the plate. The Division may not issue a multiyear plate for a house trailer.



(d) Rates on trucks, trailers and semitrailers wholly or partially equipped with solid tires shall be double the above schedule.



(e) Repealed by Session Laws 1981, c. 976, s. 6.



(f) Repealed by Session Laws 1995, c. 163, s. 6.



(g) Repealed by Session Laws 1969, c. 600, s. 17.



(h) Repealed by Session Laws 1979, c. 419.



(i) Any vehicle fee determined under this section according to the weight of the vehicle shall be increased by the sum of three dollars ($3. 00) to arrive at the total fee.



(j) No heavy vehicle subject to the use tax imposed by Section 4481 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 (26 U. S. C. 4481) may be registered or licensed pursuant to G. S. 20‑88 without proof of payment of the use tax imposed by that law. The proof of payment shall be on a form prescribed by the United States Secretary of Treasury pursuant to the provisions of 23 U. S. C. 141(d).



(k) A person may not drive a vehicle on a highway if the vehicle's gross weight exceeds its declared gross weight. A vehicle driven in violation of this subsection is subject to the axle‑group weight penalties set in G. S. 20‑118(e). The penalties apply to the amount by which the vehicle's gross weight exceeds its declared weight.



(l) The Division shall issue permanent truck and truck‑tractor plates to Class A and Class B Motor Vehicles and shall include the word "permanent" on the plate. The permanent registration plates issued pursuant to this section shall be subject to annual registration fees set in this section. The Division shall issue the necessary rules providing for the recall, transfer, exchange, or cancellation of permanent plates issued pursuant to this section. (1937, c. 407, s. 52; 1939, c. 275; 1941, cc. 36, 227; 1943, c. 648; 1945, c. 569, s. 1; c. 575, s. 1; c. 576, s. 3; c. 956, ss. 1, 2; 1949, cc. 355, 361; 1951, c. 583; c. 819, ss. 1, 2; 1953, c. 568; c. 694, s. 1; c. 1122; 1955, c. 554, s. 8; 1957, c. 681, s. 2; c. 1215; 1959, c. 571; 1961, c. 685; 1963, c. 501; c. 702, ss. 2, 3; 1967, c. 1095, ss. 1, 2; 1969, c. 600, ss. 12‑17; c. 1056, s. 1; 1973, c. 154, ss. 1, 2; c. 291; 1975, c. 716, s. 5; 1977, c. 638; 1979, c. 419; c. 631; 1981, c. 67; c. 690, ss. 29, 30; c. 976, s. 6; 1983, c. 43; c. 190, s. 1; c. 761, s. 144; c. 768, s. 4; 1991 (Reg. Sess. , 1992), c. 947, s. 1; 1993, c. 467, s. 4; c. 543, s. 1; 1995, c. 109, s. 1; c. 163, s. 6; 1995 (Reg. Sess. , 1996), c. 756, s. 8; 1997‑466, s. 1; 2004‑167, ss. 6, 7; 2004‑199, s. 59; 2005‑276, s. 44. 1(n); 2008‑221, s. 2. )
 
Thank you, Cumminz, for doing the homework on that and for having the integrity and character to come back and report what you found.

I thought that was the case but the only NC statute I found yesterday when we had the discussion going dealt specifically with commercial trucks. I could not find a statute that exempted RV owners but I could not be certain either.

We all benefitted from the discussion. You determined that you should upgrade your llcense plates to cover kingpin weight and enter weigh scale houses but bypass the scale, and other NC residents learned the same whether they participated in the discussion or not. We all learned what NC specifically requires and by extension, confirmed that almost all states, perhaps all states, have similar requirements.
 
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I got tired of worrying about it. Went and got the cdl. Insurance got cheaper as well. Made 99 on the driving part. Cheated a bit to the left to turn right and she saw the dual on the yellow line. parrelel parking to the right was fun but did it on the first try. Was with a 32 ft gooseneck.
 
The search is over! I walked away from all the Units I had to worry about lifting or towing heavy! It was very hard because it is a buyers market for sure and there where some incredible deals out there on some really nice units! I even considered buying some of them anyway just because they where so cheap!
Anyway I had given up on finding one this season and just started looking for fun and A local buyer 30 minutes away posted an ad for a damaged Rockwood Ultralight 27' model year 2000. The price was fair enough and the damage was confined to just one area above the failed tire. I have not made the repairs yet but I will soon and expect to be in a campground this season. Also will be upgrading the tires to something better.
I'm sure this is a cheap Brand and I know light means cheap but I just need to get my family in a camp ground and Have something I can haul down to PA and around when needed. This unit sleeps 8 and we have 6 in our family so it's all good!
I will post pictures when we take some. Thanks again for all the help! With so many great deals out there it was a hard thing walking away from some of the units we found!#ad

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That looks like a clean trailer. Cheap and light is okay as long as you know what you were buying, it meets your family's needs, and was priced accordingly.
 
Again, the operative word is "commercial" not "for-profit. " Pulling a flatbed gooseneck trailer loaded with some else's backhoe for payment would be commercial activity for-profit. Hauling my own backhoe as part of my dirt moving business is commercial activity, not for-hire. Each requires a CDL A if combined actual or rated weight exceeds 26,000 lbs. (not 26,001 lbs. ) and if the trailer exceeds 10k lbs.



Anyone operating on the highways can and occasionally is subjected to scale weighing. RV operators are not exempt from the laws. They are only exempt from the requirement to have a CDL, keep logs, etc. RV owners are indeed subject to weight limits, can be weighed if DOT wants to spend time on them, and can be ticketed or placed out of service.



The reality is that DOT officers are so busy with commercial haulers they don't usually have time or interest in private RVers so RV owners are often but not always ignored.



Harvey,

I completely understand what you are saying as far as needing a CDL A when hauling the backhoes in your examples. I was recently contemplating the purchase of a flatbed, gooseneck trailer. I was going to use it to haul my own, personal property. No commercial activity of any kind. I spoke to TXDOT several times. As it turns out, if one has a trailer, that, in combination with the GVW of the truck, puts you over 26,000, you must have a CDL A, even if you are not going to use it in any commercial activity. I own a backhoe. I use it to dig holes, load and unload steel and machinery, dig through brush piles for firewood, etc. If I had purchased a 20,000 GVW, dual tandem GN trailer, I would have been required to get a CDL A license. Unless, of course, I had licensed it as a farm trailer, but then I would have been restricted to staying within 150 miles of home. What good is that?

I also found out some ridiculous things about inter and intrastate DOT numbers and the fact that even if you are not engaged in commercial activity, if you can gross over 26K, then you are classed as a "Private carrier" and subject to all the CDL requirements.



Needless to say that I chose the trailer with the GVW of 14,000 lbs. Combined with the truck at 11,500, I have a combined gross of 25,500 and don't have to mess with the CDL.



Larry
 
Rockranch, I'm curious. What kind of backhoe do you have? I'm thinking you must have a lightweight Kubota-type to stay under your 14k trailer's limits and under your tires' rated load.
 
My 2 cents. I am confused. Are you hauling this trailer with your Dodge-Cummins? Will the trailer be empty? If it's empty, you can simply say you are making a delivery of just the trailer. If there is anything what so ever on it, besides maybe hay or a tool box, then it's really ambiguous and up the any policeman stopping you to decide if he feels you are "for hire"- the normal definition of commercial. In such cases, make your delivery point and shut up. Problem is any two policemen normally have two different opinions. If you are transiting several states, good luck. Sometimes it's easier to have the trailer delivered. Some states have Ag exemptions, that vary.
 
aerialimage,

Here's another consideration..... I am not sure what the GCWR is for your truck, but I think you might be over it. I have heard that Progressive and some other insurance companies will use this as the basis to deny insurance claims depending on the circumstances. You may want to verify this with your insurance carrier to be safe!!!!

Have a Great Day,

Paul
 
Harvey,
I completely understand what you are saying as far as needing a CDL A when hauling the backhoes in your examples. I was recently contemplating the purchase of a flatbed, gooseneck trailer. I was going to use it to haul my own, personal property. No commercial activity of any kind. I spoke to TXDOT several times. As it turns out, if one has a trailer, that, in combination with the GVW of the truck, puts you over 26,000, you must have a CDL A, even if you are not going to use it in any commercial activity. I own a backhoe. I use it to dig holes, load and unload steel and machinery, dig through brush piles for firewood, etc. If I had purchased a 20,000 GVW, dual tandem GN trailer, I would have been required to get a CDL A license. Unless, of course, I had licensed it as a farm trailer, but then I would have been restricted to staying within 150 miles of home. What good is that?
I also found out some ridiculous things about inter and intrastate DOT numbers and the fact that even if you are not engaged in commercial activity, if you can gross over 26K, then you are classed as a "Private carrier" and subject to all the CDL requirements.

Needless to say that I chose the trailer with the GVW of 14,000 lbs. Combined with the truck at 11,500, I have a combined gross of 25,500 and don't have to mess with the CDL.

Larry

Larry,

There is a misunderstanding in this. Either the person who gave you this explanation was confused or you misunderstood.

I should probably ask: What business are you in? That is probably relevent to the information given you by DPS.

If you, for example, are retired and in no business whatseover or if you are, for another example, a stockbroker who works in a highrise office building, and own a backhoe you use around your property to do those things you mentioned, you would need a Class A Operator license to pull the trailer and transport your backhoe is actual or rated combined weight exceeds 26,000 lbs. .

If you are engaged in some business in which the trailer and backhoe are used by you in furtherance of your business activity you would be required to have a Class A Commercial Driver's License.

On Edit:

Perhaps I am mistaken. The Class A Operator License may be specifically for and limited to recreational vehicles (RVs) with actual or potential weight in excess of 26k used for personal non-commercial use. I'll go do a little more reading and post what I learn.

Second Edit:

No, I am not mistaken.

Here is the text from the TX DPS Driving Handbook:\CLASSIFIED DRIVER LICENSE (Texas Transportation Code, Section 521)

The following listed Class A, B, C, and M licenses will be issued to persons
who are exempt from obtaining a Commercial Driver License or persons who
are not required to obtain a Commercial Driver License:


Class A driver license permits a person to drive any vehicle or combination
of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or

more, provided the gross vehicle weight rating of the vehicle(s) being towed

is in excess of 10,000 pounds; including a vehicle included in Class B or



Class C, except a motorcycle or moped.

and here is the list of those who are exempted from CDL requirements:

Commercial Driver License (CDL):


1. A vehicle that is:


a. controlled and operated by a farmer;

b. used to transport agricultural products, farm machinery, or farm supplies
to or from a farm;
c. not used in the operations of a common or contract motor carrier; and
d. used within 150 miles of the person's farm.
2. A fire-fighting or emergency vehicle necessary to the preservation of life
or property or the execution of emergency governmental functions, whether
operated by an employee of a political subdivision or by a volunteer fire fighter;
3. A military vehicle or a commercial motor vehicle when operated for military
purposes by military personnel, members of the Reserves and National
Guard on active duty, including personnel on full-time National Guard duty,
personnel on part-time training, and National Guard military technicians;
4. A recreational vehicle that is driven for personal use;
5. A vehicle that is owned, leased, or controlled by an air carrier, as defined
by Section 21. 155 of the Transportation Code, and that is driven or operated
exclusively by an employee of the air carrier only on the premises of an airport,
as defined by Section 22. 001 of the Transportation Code, on service
roads to which the public does not have access; or
6. A vehicle used exclusively to transport seed cotton modules or cotton
burrs.
Farm-Related Service Industry (FRSI) Waiver: The Department may waive
the Commercial Driver License (CDL) knowledge and skill tests required by
Section 522. 022 of the Transportation Code, and provide for the issuance of
a restricted CDL to an employee of a farm-related service industry. Seasonal
drivers of the following FRSI are authorized by federal regulation to obtain
the FRSI waiver and be issued a restricted CDL: (1) Farm retail outlets and
suppliers; (2) agri-chemical businesses; (3) custom harvesters includes cotton
modular operators; and (4) livestock feeders. FRSI CDL's shall be issued
for Class B and Class C vehicles only (Class A vehicles are not included in
the waiver). Texas regulations require that persons who apply for a FRSI
CDL pass a 20 question examination over Class A-B rules and a Class B
non-CDL skills test.



 
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My 2 cents. I am confused. Are you hauling this trailer with your Dodge-Cummins? Will the trailer be empty? If it's empty, you can simply say you are making a delivery of just the trailer. If there is anything what so ever on it, besides maybe hay or a tool box, then it's really ambiguous and up the any policeman stopping you to decide if he feels you are "for hire"- the normal definition of commercial. In such cases, make your delivery point and shut up. Problem is any two policemen normally have two different opinions. If you are transiting several states, good luck. Sometimes it's easier to have the trailer delivered. Some states have Ag exemptions, that vary.

Not true. I recommend you read all the thread and posts on this subject we have posted over the last several years.

If you are engaged in any commercial activity whether hauling for-hire or simply using the 20,000 lb. GVWR trailer in furtherance of business activity a Class A CDL would be required. If the same trailer is an RV trailer not a work type trailer you would require a Class A Operators License.

The idea that you can just tell the DOT officer operating the scale or who performs a roadside stop a lie is simply wishful thinking.
 
aerialimage,
Here's another consideration..... I am not sure what the GCWR is for your truck, but I think you might be over it. I have heard that Progressive and some other insurance companies will use this as the basis to deny insurance claims depending on the circumstances. You may want to verify this with your insurance carrier to be safe!!!!
Have a Great Day,
Paul

This website rumor has been discussed many times here in TDR. Those who refer to it are often referred to jokingly as "the web weight police".

An insurance company cannot deny coverage after accepting premiums and after the insured has an accident except in very rare cases where the insured submitted false and inaccurate information to obtain coverage. Even if you are operating at 40,000 lbs. gross and run into children in a crosswalk the insurance company will immediately write a check or checks to the injured party or parties for your policy limit then may also cancel the policy.

I've written this 100 or more times: The manufacturer's gross combined weight and towing weight are guidelines regarding the truck's load starting capabilities and endurance under load in extreme conditions. Those figures are not legally enforceable limits known by DOT officers and they have no interest in them.

Operating your truck alone at a Gross Weight of 20,000 lbs. would be an entirely different situation because the tires and axles would be grossly overloaded and would exceed legal limits. That situation could be ticketed by law enforcement and the truck could be placed out of service.
 
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"An insurance company cannot deny coverage after accepting premiums"
wanna bet!
I wouldn't want anyone to find out the hard way, I have learned to trust no one ESPECIALLY insurance companies and politicians.
 
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