chips vs injectors for 2001.5 high outputs?

[rob10858]

we use our trucks for towing only. when they were first ordered we wanted the bd 330 hp chip. about a week before they were delivered, our sevice mgr [who is also a bombaholic] called to tell me that the three trucks that he installed the chips on reported that they had a gain of acc time but not much in towing power. we went with the injectors, etc and really love the power. he called me today to tell me that he has a new chip for the high outputs. is their a perfect comb of both or should we be happy with what we have? just wondering.

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[Chad Sheets]

Injectors only are just goint to allow what fuel is available to flow better. Getting fueling boxes makes more fuel readily available.

Most of the boxes change the duration of fuel injection, which increases torque for towing. Injectors just put more fuel into the same squirt duration.

Conclusion, if it were me and I was towing, I would go with boxes, then injectors to allow all that extra fuel to flow.

Also, better start checking into gages before getting too radical.

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[Bart Timothy]

If your trucks are ETHs then injectors are a better way to go than a fueling box. The ETH VP44 is a different animal than the ETC VP44 and doesn't respond the same to fueling boxes. It seems to like injectors better. 275s, for example, give much better power increases on the ETH than the ETC. The best way to go is a combo of injectors and a timing box such as the VA or EZ.

The change in fueling curves, which fueling boxes provide, can help the ETH a little bit in providing fuel earlier and later in the rpm range. Without injectors they also provide ok increases in total power, but once you add injectors their power increases go down to almost nothing. This isn't the case with the ETC as a fueling box can add good amounts of extra power even with the addition of large injectors.

Another argument for injectors is that they decrease strain on the injection pump. Fueling boxes increase strain by increasing fuel pressure. If you're not getting that much additional power with the addition of a fueling box, then why put extra strain on the pump.

The last thing to consider is the stcok clutch and how much extra power it will handle. I know of a few ETH's with nothing more than 275s and a VA who are having clutch slippage problems especialy when towing.

All this is out the door if money is of no object and your budget is unlimited. Then maybe it's worth 6 or $700 bucks to get that additional 15 or 20 hosre power which a fueling box may give above DD3s, for example.

 

[Papa Joe]

Good post, Bart.
What would you think of 275's and a PS Boost module on a HO 6-speed? Joe

[This message has been edited by Papa Joe (edited 02-03-2001). ]

 

[Mark@TST Products]

TST dyno tested an HO 6 speed and obtained a 75 hp and 300+ torque increase above stock at the ground with a PowerMax3 adjustable set on level 9. We had to change the clutch to finish this test as the PowerMax3 on level 6 fried the stock clutch.

A set of RV injectors added 40 hp and 80 torque above stock. The two did not add together when we tried both, we got the same power and torque as the PowerMax3 alone. Big differencne was the big injectors made lots of smoke while the PowerMax3 alone was clean.

This is bad news for HO owners as the power of both the computer and injectors did add on the non-HO engines. If leaving the engine stock the HO makes more power. If your bombing, you can make much more on the pre-HO engines.

 

[Bart Timothy]

Joe,

Mark's conclusions are almost the same as my dyno results have been, only I used the PE. 275s with a boost module really will make the truck run much better, but it's all a matter of how much more power your going to want. The biggest advantage I can see with the injectors vs a box is the ease of strain on the pump. With just anything you'll want to do eventually you'll need a new clutch. I think the ETH/DEE clutches are only marginal at best. I know of a couple of rigs who've got 275s and VAs which have started slipping the clutch.

For BOMBing the best thing to do is get Dodge to sell a ETC/DEE!!

 

[Mark@TST Products]

I believe there is no pump durability advantage with big injectors over other methods. TST has sold thousands of injectors and power boxes for the 24 valve engines and the VP44 pump failure rate reported to us is near equal. This fail rate is about the same as for Ram diesels that have been left stock.

I have disassembled many failed VP44 pumps and talked with many drivers of failed pumps. The pumps always appear to fail due to a lack of lubrication (rotor and stator friction welded together and shaft broken)and the drivers report they had just run the engine to a very high rpm with good power, let off the power to shift or slow down, and the engine was dead when they got back on the throttle.

Since fuel flow through the distributor rotor goes to zero when you let off the throttle (till engine gets back to idle) there is no lubrication. Turning up lift pump pressure or bigger injectors do not keep this flow rate from going to zero when the throttle is released. Insuring they you have adequate lift pump pressure may prevent the VP44 from starving for fuel during a high speed exercise.

 

[Bigsaint]

Mark@TST... Are you doing any R+D on pump replacements on the ETH VP44? Do you think that swaping out the ETH pump for the ETC VP44 would help the ETH ? Also, would the PM 3 provide more HP over the EZ box with the following mods... HX40 turbo, stage III injectors, 3 piece ATS manifold and 4" exhaust ?

Thanks and thanks again for the DiP. gauges that I purchased from you in 2000, I really love 'em #ad

Scott W.

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[Papa Joe]

Most interesting, thank you.
As you may (or not) know, my 99 was BOMBed with only 275s and the PS module. Since I had the automatic - 1) I wasn't willing to seriously BOMB and 2) the stock 215 hp made the increase (I estimated 40hp) from the combo really noticeable. I loved it, and the extra 1. 5 mpg was a pleasant surprise.
I'm leaning with the new truck (sheeesh, only 200 miles on it) to do the same thing - 275 and PS module. If I get an honest 40 hp (over the stock 245) with no increae in EGT... ... I'm there.
Sorry for the long post, but TDR is the classroom, eh. More comments? #ad
Joe

[This message has been edited by Papa Joe (edited 02-06-2001). ]

 

[Bigsaint]

Papa Joe... My first (check that, second to the blow by bottle re-route) mod. to my ETH was the Edge EZ. I added the EZ at approx. 2000 miles in November 2000 and can say that it really wakes up the ETH. Big difference in seat of pants HP/Torque compaired to stock, which isnt bad either. I don't know what the PS boost module costs but I think you would be around the same cost as the EZ box alone compared to the PS module and 275 injectors, with an easier install/uninstall on the EZ. The EZ has a boost mod. and if you install the enclosed boost elbow, you would see similar results. When I was stock, may max boost was 20. 5. After the EZ install with the boost elbow, I see 28 psi boost at WOT. Hope this helps !!!

Scott W.

Forgot to add... my highest egt's with the EZ at WOT are 1100. This is unloaded and while climbing a 25% grade.

[This message has been edited by Bigsaint (edited 02-06-2001). ]

 

[Steve Campbell]

Mark@tst, is the fuel starvation and subsequent injection pump failure more of a poor/bad lift pump issue, or the jump from WOT to idle? Maybe a combo of both? The ez on ez off style of driving should make the vp44 last lomger?

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1999 Qcab 4x4 Driftwood
Steve

 

[Marco]

I'm late here as I'm usual...
I think there's no difference between the ETH and the earlier VP pumps.
The ETH ECM is different.
No, that's not exact, the FILE in the ETH ECM
is different.

I think people at Cummins got tired of us BOMBers. They have added a few nice curves that limit fuel and torque to an preset level.

No matter how much fuel you add with a box, the ECM calculates how much fuel is going through the injectors, if you reach it's limit it will cut back on fuel.

Then more fuel you add then more it cut's back on it.

There's NO way arround it other than ... .
You know me, so you've understood what I want to say. #ad


Maybe I've got that line wrong. If the VP stops the fuel flow, how is it that my engine doesn't die when I'm releasing the go pedal? Mine is a AT it would die if it didn't get fuel for some moment.
Please help!
Marco.

 

[Bart Timothy]

Mark, I may stand corrected about the injector vs VP44 issue as you certainly have vastly more experience and knowledge about these engines than I. I was going by both the theory and information from others on the site who have much knowledge, and for whom I have great respect. Failure rate figures are certainly one of the big issues to be looking at. Your figures are good news.

Some of my analyses came from pump failures supposedly caused the early Blue Boxes, which may local BOMB dealers swore to be the case. Upon second thought, these failures could have been a lubrication problem.

At the last Vegas dyno days one ETC pump failed after the mere addition of an EZ box with no high speed run - maybe a coincidence.

I con cure that boxes smoke less than injectors. This is from personal observation.

It also does appear that the DD setups are making the most power on ETHs. Boxes aren't doing as good a job as injectors in the horse power race from what I've been able to gather.

Marco's post has me all confused. The ETH VP44 and the ETC VP44 aren't EXACTLY the same; even the spec sheets say that. DD claims there are differences the internal mechanicals. What exactly are the differences? If a fueling box is able to modify the signal curve sent from the ECM to the pump, how does the ETH ECM defeat that?

The TDR is certainly a great forum for increasing one's knowledge!!

 

[Marco]

The ECM can calculate how much fuel is going through the pump into the injectors.
No way to fool that. No box can fool the electrons traveling through the wires.

The older files in the ECM's(up to '00)didn't have certain limiters. They were written into them begining from '01.

I don't know for sure if ther's any mechanical difference in the '01 VP-44.
It's not important. The mechanical part off VP does only what it's told from the ECM.
Hope this helps.
Marco.