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Christains killing Indians
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Dad gum I missed it. Sounds like a good thread. Someone fill me in.
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Tractorface reply
Tractorface said,
"Catholic Church. Teacher told my parents I asked too many questions and was upsetting the other kids.
Since the Discovery channel ran a story on Noah's Ark last night let's use that as an example. Does anyone really believe that literal interpretation many of us were taught in Church. You know whole world covered by water, two of each on the boat etc. etc. .
Is this what you believe?
What is Christmas? When was Jesus Born? How does evolution fit into the scheme of things. How is it possible that 'his" book is right and "my book is wrong"?
For the record lpearson, I was not going to reply any more because it is not my place to tell others about their religion, I am not well read enough to do that. To each his own. I only replied because Your posts are very well written and seem logical. I don't have all the answers but I know enough to realize when something is wrong.
Tough subject, it needs to be talked about, it is very relevant to the troubles in our world today. I look forward to your answers, I'll be offline until morrow. "
See Ya
Tractorface said,
"Catholic Church. Teacher told my parents I asked too many questions and was upsetting the other kids.
Since the Discovery channel ran a story on Noah's Ark last night let's use that as an example. Does anyone really believe that literal interpretation many of us were taught in Church. You know whole world covered by water, two of each on the boat etc. etc. .
Is this what you believe?
What is Christmas? When was Jesus Born? How does evolution fit into the scheme of things. How is it possible that 'his" book is right and "my book is wrong"?
For the record lpearson, I was not going to reply any more because it is not my place to tell others about their religion, I am not well read enough to do that. To each his own. I only replied because Your posts are very well written and seem logical. I don't have all the answers but I know enough to realize when something is wrong.
Tough subject, it needs to be talked about, it is very relevant to the troubles in our world today. I look forward to your answers, I'll be offline until morrow. "
See Ya
I proudly stand, raise my hand, and say "yes, I do beleive what the Bible says".
IMHO, it is foolish to try to explain a miracle by using science. The whole idea of a miracle is that it is an event that defies scientific explanation. Believe if you want, or if you prefer, then don't believe.
Re: Tractorface reply
Ok, it seems this forum is better for this post.
For the record TF, I don't have all the answers either and as far as I know no one alive on this earth does.
But if it's alright, I would like to address your questions.
1. On Noah's Ark; from my studies in this area the ark was visited for many centuries. There was even a monistary at the bottom of Mt. Ararat in modern day Turkey near the Armenian/Iranian boarder. In the 1800's there were expeditions to the Ark on this giant mountain (almost 17,000' and always covered with snow).
Many eye witnesses have written about it. In WW1, the Russian Military flew over the mountain and noticed the Ark and took pictures of it. Then an expedition was sent up, recorded with artifacts and taken to Moscow. In 1949 Americans explored the site and reported being in the Ark and took wood back from there. The wood was dated and found to be of Gopher wood, as stated in Gen. 6:14. Wood shouldn't be at this elevation; 5000' feet above timber line. Since then others have reported seeing it. Presently, because of the policital situations in the area Turkey is not giving permission to anyone to climb anymore.
There eye witness accounts, from secularists not Christians, indicate that this is a massive boat about the size of the Queen Mary (1st. one) and that it was filled with stalls.
Again from my studies on this subject, it seems that all the world civilizations have myths or folklore about a worldwide flood. The Chinese, which are not a Christian nation have this same myths and the person on the boat has a similar name to that of Noah. The Iraqis (sp) also have this ledgend. There are sea shells and fish fossils on mountain peaks all over the world. How did they get there?
There is more on this, but I guess everyone has to make up his mind. I believe that this is literal and not an allegory. To what end would this be if it weren't true? For what reason? Tracing back in History shows that the birth place of civilization was in this region.
Christmas was a Catholic invention. (Mary and Christ mass) Notice we never say merry birthday, merry 4th of July et. , just Mary Christ mass. Catholics elevate Mary first. There is nowhere in the Bible that tells us we were to celebrate Christs birth, just his death and resurrection (communion). Originally, it was a pagan holiday, with drunkeness, debouchry and sex orgies--- all to worship the return of the Sun (winter solstice). Yule logs, holly, mistletoe, candles, giving of gifts, Decorating pine trees were all parts of the celebration of Baal, the Sun god bring back the sun. Actually the Bible warns against these type of practices. ---------------------------Jeremiah 10:2-4 see if this reminds you of the Christmas tree.
"Thus saith the LORD, LEARN NOT THE WAY OF THE HEATHEN, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. " Could this fit a Christmas tree? I think that and more.
When was Jesus Born? Good question! According to Scripture the shepards were tending their flocks by night. December (winter) they don't do this in the region of Israel. I personally believe that Jesus was born in the spring somewhere around the month of Nissan (march-april), others think it was in the fall around Yom Kipper (sp) Sept? Actually the Bible doesn't tell us, so at best these are guesses. Also, the world accepted callendars have been changed at least 5 time in the last 2000 years, showing that the time we think it is may be off by some 4 years. Todays accepted time is 2004 A. D. (in the year of our Lord is what A. D. means).
Evolution is another long subject, and I've often thought about starting a thread about it. So for right now I'll stop because this is long enough.
Your last question; "how is His book is right and my book wrong?"
What is your book? I can't respond yet.
P. S. The Bible is not all literal, lots of it is but then there are allagories, hyperbolies, symbolic prophecies, visions and types.
Some have taken things out of context to make doctrines and errored therein, that is why the scripture says. II Tim 2:15 (A. V. ) "STUDY to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH. " (study--- is not in the New Versions it's only in the textus receptus Authorized Version KJV. )
Thanks and Regards,
Lowell
Originally posted by lpearson
Tractorface said,
"Catholic Church. Teacher told my parents I asked too many questions and was upsetting the other kids.
Since the Discovery channel ran a story on Noah's Ark last night let's use that as an example. Does anyone really believe that literal interpretation many of us were taught in Church. You know whole world covered by water, two of each on the boat etc. etc. .
Is this what you believe?
What is Christmas? When was Jesus Born? How does evolution fit into the scheme of things. How is it possible that 'his" book is right and "my book is wrong"?
For the record lpearson, I was not going to reply any more because it is not my place to tell others about their religion, I am not well read enough to do that. To each his own. I only replied because Your posts are very well written and seem logical. I don't have all the answers but I know enough to realize when something is wrong.
Tough subject, it needs to be talked about, it is very relevant to the troubles in our world today. I look forward to your answers, I'll be offline until morrow. "
See Ya
Ok, it seems this forum is better for this post.
For the record TF, I don't have all the answers either and as far as I know no one alive on this earth does.
But if it's alright, I would like to address your questions.
1. On Noah's Ark; from my studies in this area the ark was visited for many centuries. There was even a monistary at the bottom of Mt. Ararat in modern day Turkey near the Armenian/Iranian boarder. In the 1800's there were expeditions to the Ark on this giant mountain (almost 17,000' and always covered with snow).
Many eye witnesses have written about it. In WW1, the Russian Military flew over the mountain and noticed the Ark and took pictures of it. Then an expedition was sent up, recorded with artifacts and taken to Moscow. In 1949 Americans explored the site and reported being in the Ark and took wood back from there. The wood was dated and found to be of Gopher wood, as stated in Gen. 6:14. Wood shouldn't be at this elevation; 5000' feet above timber line. Since then others have reported seeing it. Presently, because of the policital situations in the area Turkey is not giving permission to anyone to climb anymore.
There eye witness accounts, from secularists not Christians, indicate that this is a massive boat about the size of the Queen Mary (1st. one) and that it was filled with stalls.
Again from my studies on this subject, it seems that all the world civilizations have myths or folklore about a worldwide flood. The Chinese, which are not a Christian nation have this same myths and the person on the boat has a similar name to that of Noah. The Iraqis (sp) also have this ledgend. There are sea shells and fish fossils on mountain peaks all over the world. How did they get there?
There is more on this, but I guess everyone has to make up his mind. I believe that this is literal and not an allegory. To what end would this be if it weren't true? For what reason? Tracing back in History shows that the birth place of civilization was in this region.
Christmas was a Catholic invention. (Mary and Christ mass) Notice we never say merry birthday, merry 4th of July et. , just Mary Christ mass. Catholics elevate Mary first. There is nowhere in the Bible that tells us we were to celebrate Christs birth, just his death and resurrection (communion). Originally, it was a pagan holiday, with drunkeness, debouchry and sex orgies--- all to worship the return of the Sun (winter solstice). Yule logs, holly, mistletoe, candles, giving of gifts, Decorating pine trees were all parts of the celebration of Baal, the Sun god bring back the sun. Actually the Bible warns against these type of practices. ---------------------------Jeremiah 10:2-4 see if this reminds you of the Christmas tree.
"Thus saith the LORD, LEARN NOT THE WAY OF THE HEATHEN, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. " Could this fit a Christmas tree? I think that and more.
When was Jesus Born? Good question! According to Scripture the shepards were tending their flocks by night. December (winter) they don't do this in the region of Israel. I personally believe that Jesus was born in the spring somewhere around the month of Nissan (march-april), others think it was in the fall around Yom Kipper (sp) Sept? Actually the Bible doesn't tell us, so at best these are guesses. Also, the world accepted callendars have been changed at least 5 time in the last 2000 years, showing that the time we think it is may be off by some 4 years. Todays accepted time is 2004 A. D. (in the year of our Lord is what A. D. means).
Evolution is another long subject, and I've often thought about starting a thread about it. So for right now I'll stop because this is long enough.
Your last question; "how is His book is right and my book wrong?"
What is your book? I can't respond yet.
P. S. The Bible is not all literal, lots of it is but then there are allagories, hyperbolies, symbolic prophecies, visions and types.
Some have taken things out of context to make doctrines and errored therein, that is why the scripture says. II Tim 2:15 (A. V. ) "STUDY to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH. " (study--- is not in the New Versions it's only in the textus receptus Authorized Version KJV. )
Thanks and Regards,
Lowell
Last edited:
What Lowell and Ken said.
Klenger> I agree. It is ridiculous for people to try to use science to show the bible isnt factual. God would fly in the face of science. It is equally wrong for christians to attack science.
There are lots of interesting arguments. One is why doesnt the bible talk about dinosuars. Moses didn't load up a couple of T-rexs did he? Some christains beleive that dinosaurs never existed.
Other people will say how can anyone beleive that when we have all the bones. The christains have a powerful argument that explains how their are all those bones yet the animals themselves never exhisted and never walked the earth.
Any of yall heard the argument before?
There are lots of interesting arguments. One is why doesnt the bible talk about dinosuars. Moses didn't load up a couple of T-rexs did he? Some christains beleive that dinosaurs never existed.
Other people will say how can anyone beleive that when we have all the bones. The christains have a powerful argument that explains how their are all those bones yet the animals themselves never exhisted and never walked the earth.
Any of yall heard the argument before?
There are many things in the world where science and the Bible don't seem to agree. I have no problem with that. I am perfectly content in knowing that I do not understand or have an explanation for everything. Science, on the other hand, seems to think that we have enough knowledge to explain everything. Some of the claims made by science will look pretty silly a few hundred years from now. I am not anti-science at all, I just don't think that science has all the answers.
God and science don't have to be mutually exclusive. Science is the study of the laws of nature that God created. The Bible mentions creatures that roamed the earth, could dinosaurs not be included in that description?
Also, there is quite a good argument that the six days in which the earth was created as mentioned in Genesis can be mathematically linked to the geological estimations of 4 billion years through the theory of relativity. Interesting stuff indeed!
Also, there is quite a good argument that the six days in which the earth was created as mentioned in Genesis can be mathematically linked to the geological estimations of 4 billion years through the theory of relativity. Interesting stuff indeed!
Okay here is the argument about how dinosaurs might never have existed
When god made the earth and all things living he made things like trees. On day 1 god could have made a tree fully grown. This tree could still have rings. These rings were from a time that never was, so too could god make the earth with Layers of strata that could have been but werent, Just like the tree.
I like that argument
When god made the earth and all things living he made things like trees. On day 1 god could have made a tree fully grown. This tree could still have rings. These rings were from a time that never was, so too could god make the earth with Layers of strata that could have been but werent, Just like the tree.
I like that argument
Its alive
Wow its back!
I am very interested in what most are saying. Let me just say I am not trying to "put down" christianity, it sounds like I am, but trust me I just want to get folks to think a little. From what I have seen and read I disagree with the Ark being a literal example. I believe it is a story meant to teach us based on possibly real events way back when. Honestly to each his own.
I started this thread after reading the Abraham's report on "Jihad" and how we are basically involved in a holy war for our survival. I wanted people to think about the plight of the american indian because somehow it is realevent to our struggles today. It is important we try and focus on what is reality and not fire and Brimstone speeches by those with thier own agenda. Religion has its place, for any religion to be valid (IN MY OPINION)it must coexist with science, not defy it. Now I admit not all details must meet this criteria but in general there has to be some common ground.
My point about which book is correct is simply this. Most people passionate about thier religion learned that passion from thier parents and thier parents etc. So you were "born" into your religion. How is it that you were lucky enough to be born into the only real religion that offers true "salvation"? It doesn't make sense does it? Religion is great when it lifts people up and helps them get through tough times. We all need to believe in something, its part of our genetic makeup, few don't want to belong to some group. Whatever religion you may follow can have positive messages that help a person feel secure, however when a group tries to force thier belives on another group a line MUST BE DRAWN.
I think we are in Iraq in order to draw that line. We just need to remember that killing for killings sake is not going to feel good in 100 years.
Last thing, I was very disturbed by a few posts on the other thread because they demonstrated the very intolerance that caused me to start the thread. Unfortunately there are some "faiths" that insist on pushing thier beliefs on others, (good way to get donations up) Anyway, fire away, I am very comfortable in my beliefs and can take a lot of heat.
Wow its back!
I am very interested in what most are saying. Let me just say I am not trying to "put down" christianity, it sounds like I am, but trust me I just want to get folks to think a little. From what I have seen and read I disagree with the Ark being a literal example. I believe it is a story meant to teach us based on possibly real events way back when. Honestly to each his own.
I started this thread after reading the Abraham's report on "Jihad" and how we are basically involved in a holy war for our survival. I wanted people to think about the plight of the american indian because somehow it is realevent to our struggles today. It is important we try and focus on what is reality and not fire and Brimstone speeches by those with thier own agenda. Religion has its place, for any religion to be valid (IN MY OPINION)it must coexist with science, not defy it. Now I admit not all details must meet this criteria but in general there has to be some common ground.
My point about which book is correct is simply this. Most people passionate about thier religion learned that passion from thier parents and thier parents etc. So you were "born" into your religion. How is it that you were lucky enough to be born into the only real religion that offers true "salvation"? It doesn't make sense does it? Religion is great when it lifts people up and helps them get through tough times. We all need to believe in something, its part of our genetic makeup, few don't want to belong to some group. Whatever religion you may follow can have positive messages that help a person feel secure, however when a group tries to force thier belives on another group a line MUST BE DRAWN.
I think we are in Iraq in order to draw that line. We just need to remember that killing for killings sake is not going to feel good in 100 years.
Last thing, I was very disturbed by a few posts on the other thread because they demonstrated the very intolerance that caused me to start the thread. Unfortunately there are some "faiths" that insist on pushing thier beliefs on others, (good way to get donations up) Anyway, fire away, I am very comfortable in my beliefs and can take a lot of heat.
Dino's
Not to be argumentive to your thoughts, but since we weren't there it's hard to say just how God did it.
On the other Hand God did make dinosaurs, And he did mention them in the Bible. The word Dinosaur means = large lizard. This word was "coined" back in the early 1800's;--- before that, the word for them was Dragons; (Dragon(s) mentioned in the Bible 35 times).
Every civilization has folklore about Dragons, look at China and their celebrations, the Dragon (serpant type) is all throughout their culture. This just didn't drop out of the sky. It had to come from somewhere.
1400 century dictionaries talk about Dragons and their rarity, they still existed but were becoming very scarce on the earth because of their food sources and men hunting them.
In the Book of Job, God was wanting to get Jobs attitude adjusted and ask him some 79 questions by my count. (actually when you are feeling proud and like you got the world by the tail read Job Chapters 38 through 40. , brings you back to reality)
Anyway, God ask Job about Behemoth, the largest dino God ever made on the earth, his tail was like a cedar tree, his bones were strong like brass and iron bars, he lies under TREES to cover him (notice not one tree), and he can drink up a river, even the Jordan river. This creature was the chief ways of God. i. e. the Biggest.
Then there is Leviathan, the meanest, badest, scareist creature ever to be on the planet. (T-Rex for breakfast type thing). This was the only animal that God made that was made without fear. He literally was a fire breathing dragon and may have had more than one head. He could boil the seas and no one was able to stand before him. His scales were shut up together so close that air couldn't get in there. Men were not able to Kill him with spears of arrows or ?, they just bounced off. He was one Bad "mother". Scripture says that God killed Leviathan (from the planet).
So at least these two were around in Jobs day (aprox. 1520 B. C. ) I've got lots of info on others (secular stuff). But enough for now.
Lowell
Not to be argumentive to your thoughts, but since we weren't there it's hard to say just how God did it.
On the other Hand God did make dinosaurs, And he did mention them in the Bible. The word Dinosaur means = large lizard. This word was "coined" back in the early 1800's;--- before that, the word for them was Dragons; (Dragon(s) mentioned in the Bible 35 times).
Every civilization has folklore about Dragons, look at China and their celebrations, the Dragon (serpant type) is all throughout their culture. This just didn't drop out of the sky. It had to come from somewhere.
1400 century dictionaries talk about Dragons and their rarity, they still existed but were becoming very scarce on the earth because of their food sources and men hunting them.
In the Book of Job, God was wanting to get Jobs attitude adjusted and ask him some 79 questions by my count. (actually when you are feeling proud and like you got the world by the tail read Job Chapters 38 through 40. , brings you back to reality)
Anyway, God ask Job about Behemoth, the largest dino God ever made on the earth, his tail was like a cedar tree, his bones were strong like brass and iron bars, he lies under TREES to cover him (notice not one tree), and he can drink up a river, even the Jordan river. This creature was the chief ways of God. i. e. the Biggest.
Then there is Leviathan, the meanest, badest, scareist creature ever to be on the planet. (T-Rex for breakfast type thing). This was the only animal that God made that was made without fear. He literally was a fire breathing dragon and may have had more than one head. He could boil the seas and no one was able to stand before him. His scales were shut up together so close that air couldn't get in there. Men were not able to Kill him with spears of arrows or ?, they just bounced off. He was one Bad "mother". Scripture says that God killed Leviathan (from the planet).
So at least these two were around in Jobs day (aprox. 1520 B. C. ) I've got lots of info on others (secular stuff). But enough for now.
Lowell
Last edited:
I know what you meant, but it was Noah on the Ark, not Moses.
Actually with a ship that big (took over 100 years for him to build, the size of an ocean liner) he could take 2 of each animal. ----------------
My feeling is that he took baby ones (dino's), a "blue" one and a "pink" one. I also think the assumption that he took full grown adults wouldn't work. Anyway, thought I would comment on that.
Lowell
where did the water come from?
Where did the water to cover the earth come from? where did it go? We know close to how much water is on earth, either as liquid, locked up as ice, or in the atmosphere. How did Noah gather two of all animals on earth? He had seven days to do what, travel the earth, capture the animals, and load them up. Keep them cared for over I think one year at sea. I am not buying it, sorry. BTW Do you think he gathered a bigfoot and some snipe? Wish he would have left the damn mosquitos out
I honestly think the story has a link to a real event, and I have no problem accepting the bible once you decide that it is not to be taken literally. See that is why we have so many religions from so few sources, its all in the interprutation. That is why one religion is no better than the next in Gods eyes. At least that is how I think it must be.
See Ya
Where did the water to cover the earth come from? where did it go? We know close to how much water is on earth, either as liquid, locked up as ice, or in the atmosphere. How did Noah gather two of all animals on earth? He had seven days to do what, travel the earth, capture the animals, and load them up. Keep them cared for over I think one year at sea. I am not buying it, sorry. BTW Do you think he gathered a bigfoot and some snipe? Wish he would have left the damn mosquitos out
I honestly think the story has a link to a real event, and I have no problem accepting the bible once you decide that it is not to be taken literally. See that is why we have so many religions from so few sources, its all in the interprutation. That is why one religion is no better than the next in Gods eyes. At least that is how I think it must be.
See Ya
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
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Renew
Subscribe
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
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The Perfect Collection Vol. II
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