CJ-4 Rotella used oil analysis...not so bad!

[steved]

OK, here it is!!!



Based on a UOA, CJ-4 doesn't seem that bad!!!!



steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Not to rain on your parade Steve, but with that Amsoil bypass, I would have expected wear numbers, especially Iron, to be lots lower - as it is, wear numbers for iron are actually a bit HIGHER than the "universal average" Blackstone uses for NON-bypassed engines...



For comparison (yes, I know you have seen this one before ), here's a sample from my '91 truck at nearly the same engine miles as your truck, but somewhat fewer miles on the oil:



#ad




And here's the results of an analysis done on my relatively NEW, unseated-in engine with 20K miles on the oil:



#ad




Twice the miles on the oil, and slightly lower wear numbers than what you have ended up with.



PLEASE don't misunderstand or misinterpret this post - I'm sure you are looking for comments and perhaps comparisons - and these are just mine.



Regards~

 

[steved]

Blackstone was aware I had a bypass. I made sure I stated that because it made a difference.

I would assume that if the engine was wearing, wouldn't I see the wear numbers elevated across the board, and not just iron a the average???

I do appreciate the comments... and I'm not sure the amsoil filter is all it's cracked up to be anyway... at least not compared to some of the others...

And one other thing to consider, it is a single sample... maybe the next will be lower???

steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

And one other thing to consider, it is a single sample... maybe the next will be lower???

That's the way to look at it!



Actually, the wear numbers on my old '91 were quite consistent from one change to another if you noticed, while those numbers were steadily trending downward on the '02 as mileage on the engine increased - I figure I've probably got another 20K miles before the engine is fully seated in.



I really appreciate your taking the time to post your results - actual, real world examples beat SOP and WAG's ALL to Hell! :-laf



Keep us posted!

 

[steved]

I guess the main point I was bringing across is the fact that the CJ-4 oil doesn't appear to be as horrible as we thought it was going to be...



If I can have an oil with 3k more miles than the 6700 mile "average" and still have "average" wear numbers... see what I'm saying?



I was really worried about the effects of CJ-4 and, while a single samples proves nothing, this shows that its not really horrible! They might not be WOW, awesome numbers, but they aren't WOW, horrible numbers either...



I know what your saying, but at the same time I'm happy with this as I was expecting a whole lot worse...



steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Steve, do you have any #'s from earlier analysis, and the CI-4+ stuff to compare against? Not sure if Rotella has the "+" like Delo or not...

 

[steved]

Steve, do you have any #'s from earlier analysis, and the CI-4+ stuff to compare against? Not sure if Rotella has the "+" like Delo or not...

No, this is my first UOA (I blame you this on you Gary... first the bypass, now UOAs... where will it stop?? :-laf )...



I have CI-4+ Rotella in it now, but it also has some of the CJ-4 that was in the bypass and the cooler (about a gallon) still left in the system. So it probably wouldn't be accurate at least fo 100% CI-4+.



Maybe I'll run down to TSC and get enough CI-4+ (they still have it in 2. 5 gallon jugs) and plan on doing the next change to CI-4+ (including the bypass filter, which has over 20k on it right now), then do another analysis. It would probably be the middle of summer before I got 20k on it, but at least it might give us a comparison (CI-4+ to CJ-4 Rotella)???



But it's still your fault Gary... your going to be my scapegoat from now on... everytime something happens, it's going to be Gary's fault! I wonder if that will work on the wife??? Hmmm... . :-laf



steved

 

[steved]

Oh, and I had a sample of my trans submitted too...



It can be found here: http://www.tdr1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178128



Amsoil MTF seems pretty good...



steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

But it's still your fault Gary... your going to be my scapegoat from now on... everytime something happens, it's going to be Gary's fault! I wonder if that will work on the wife??? Hmmm... .

Around our house, we blame everything on the dog... :-laf

 

[steved]

I just had a thought...



We are comparing CJ-4 to CI-4plus... maybe the reformulation of the CI-4plus wasn't needed to meet the specs of CJ-4???



I wonder if there would be more difference between CI-4 and CJ-4? I know the VOA of both CJ-4 and CI-4plus Rotella appear very similar...



Just another thought... maybe we aren't comparing apples to oranges, but tangerines to oranges???



steved

 

[amsoilman]

I just had a thought...



We are comparing CJ-4 to CI-4plus... maybe the reformulation of the CI-4plus wasn't needed to meet the specs of CJ-4???



I wonder if there would be more difference between CI-4 and CJ-4? I know the VOA of both CJ-4 and CI-4plus Rotella appear very similar...



Just another thought... maybe we aren't comparing apples to oranges, but tangerines to oranges???



steved

Steve,

With the introduction of the ULSD Fuels, the emission standards require more stringent (NOx) Nitrous Oxide and particulate reductions. The OEM's have had to increase the EGR rates of 25-35 % to meet them. This allows excessive amounts of soot and acids into the oil. The engines also run hotter, requiring Deisel engine oils to have improved oxidation resistance.



Increased EGR, although effectively decreasing NOx emissions, results in less efficient combustion and increased levels of soot. Along with that they have also had to install the (DPF's) Deisel Particulate Filters.



Traditionaly, detergent additives in Deisel oils have effectively prevented cylinder wear, piston deposits, oil consumption, rust and valve train wear. The additive ZDDP has also been used to provide valve train wear. The problem with ZDDP and detergent additives, sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulfer is they will plug the DPF's.

Due to the negative effects of these additives on the DPF's, the oil companies have had to remove or lower the amounts from the oil.



Example:API CI-4 oils could have 1. 50 percent ash, and the new CJ-4 oils are limited to 1. 0 percent ash. Sulfated ash provides lubricity and alkalinity (TBN) to counteract acid formmation during combustion. The TBN limits are now set at 8 where the CI-4 oils were between 10-14.



As far as the UOA report on the new CJ-4 oil within your truck, I wouldn't worry one bit, as the numbers look GREAT! I would have to agree with the comments in the report. "At 108,993 miles on your 5. 9L is wearing nicely!"



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Buffalo]

CI-4+ vs. CJ-4

This past Friday, I called Chevron & Schaeffer's to speak with them about the availability of the CI-4+, in the future. Neither of my trucks need the CJ-4.

Chevron said that the CI-4+ will still be available but, only in barrel (55 gal. ) & bulk (1000 gal. to 2000 gal's. ) quantities. The engineer I spoke with said that the new CJ-4 "IS" a robust oil & that the base oils are of better quality than the CI-4+.



The Schaeffer engineer said that their 7000 series, 15X40 (semi-synthetic blend) will be there only CJ-4. Their 9000 series, 5X40, (fully synthetic) will remain a CI-4+, at least til 2010, due to the fact that they did not want to spend the millions to convert that product to the new CJ-4. He went on to say that the new CJ-4 is a robust oil, also. Stronger base oils. Also, the lower TBN will actually be stronger than the older CI-4+'s TBN. He said that the CI-4+ may start out with a TBN of 14 but, in 15,000 miles of use the TBN could possibly be cut in half.



The CJ-4 TBN may start out at 9 but, after 15,000 miles of use, it could still be 8.



Both engineers sounded very convincing to a layman, such as myself, but they are also trying to sell a product.



In TDR Issue 54 (Nov. , Dec. , Jan. ), on page 10, there is a good article by Mr. John R. Martin, formerly of Lubrizol Corp. ( one of the manufacturers of additive packages sold to oil companies). Mr. Martin has 25 years with Lubrizol with many credits & patents to his name, while in their employ. The interesting thing about Mr Martin is that he isn't trying to sell us anything. He does not "have a horse in this race".



The last 4 paragraphs in his article are particularly interesting to those of us that have engines WITHOUT diesel particulate filters (DPF). At the beginning of the second paragraph, He says, "If you don't have an engine equipped with a DPF, by all means utilize an API CI-4 oil! Your engine will thank you for it!"



I'm not trying to start an 'Oil War', here. Just have an interest in the subject & thought I'd pass on some of the information I've seen & heard.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[JValdez]

So with all the above info, what do you guys plan on doing? Are you gonna keep trying to stick with the CI-4 or just go with the CJ-4. The CI-4 is hard to find so I just need to know what I should look for.

 

[amsoilman]

So with all the above info, what do you guys plan on doing? Are you gonna keep trying to stick with the CI-4 or just go with the CJ-4. The CI-4 is hard to find so I just need to know what I should look for.

Amsoil is keeping the CI-4+ till at least 2010, so since I have been using the 15W-40 Heavy Duty Deisel & Marine (CI-4+) I will continue to use it.





Wayne

amsoilman

 

[steved]

I don't have much of a choice as it is all but impossible to find Rotella 15w40 CI-4 around here (except for old stock).



And again, with the results of my UOA, I'm not going to worry about it. As Buffalo pointed out, someone already said "run CI-4". And there have been several articles I have read that stated CJ-4 would be a BETTER oil than even CI-4. So IMHO, at this point I don't think anyone knows exactly what this newer CJ-4 oil will ultimately do.



If you look at the VOA of Rotella CJ-4 and the CI-4 plus, there is very little difference between the two. I currenly have CI-4 in the sump and can tell you without a doubt it doesn't pump up as quickly at even 30*F as the CJ-4 does at 5*F. So there's got to be some difference...



steved

 

[pwr2tow]

I don't have much of a choice as it is all but impossible to find Rotella 15w40 CI-4 around here (except for old stock).

And again, with the results of my UOA, I'm not going to worry about it. As Buffalo pointed out, someone already said "run CI-4". And there have been several articles I have read that stated CJ-4 would be a BETTER oil than even CI-4. So IMHO, at this point I don't think anyone knows exactly what this newer CJ-4 oil will ultimately do.

If you look at the VOA of Rotella CJ-4 and the CI-4 plus, there is very little difference between the two. I currenly have CI-4 in the sump and can tell you without a doubt it doesn't pump up as quickly at even 30*F as the CJ-4 does at 5*F. So there's got to be some difference...

steved

Your last sentence. So your saying the CJ-4 oil pumps up better in cold climates than previous oils given the same weight oils? Great to hear.

 

[steved]

Your last sentence. So your saying the CJ-4 oil pumps up better in cold climates than previous oils given the same weight oils? Great to hear.

At 5*F, CJ-4 pumps up pretty fast compared to CI-4 Rotella. I would *guess* the CJ-4 pumps up to pressure at 5*F (60psi in my case) faster than CI-4 at 30*F... by "guess", I never really timed either one, but the CJ-4 is definately quicker to pump to 60psi. I find myself waiting for pressure to build with the CI-4 currently in the sump... I didn't really need to before...



steved

 

[Buffalo]

JValdez,



Personally, I've decided to go with the CI-4+ (Chevron Delo-400, 15X40). In fact, I just purchased the last 5 cases from my local Costco. I like the Chevron due to the addition of Moly & Boron into the additive package with the CI-4+.



When the Delo CI-4+ came out, it was praised on 'bob is the oil guy.com' as an extremely high quality conventional oil. They were saying that it is approaching the quality of synthetics. Not bad for a reasonably priced oil.



I haven't heard that much 'good' about the new CJ-4 until I called Chevron & Schaeffer's. However, since CJ-4 is all that they have to sell (except for Schaeffer's 9000, CI-4+), I would imagine they want to instill as much confidence in their new product, as possible. The CJ-4 base oil is supposed to be superior & some of the additive package may be better but, why are some folks, that are quite familiar with oils, saying to try to use the CI-4+, if possible?



In the worst case scenario, we will have to change the oil a bit more often than with the CI-4+. That isn't all that horrible. Maybe a little more inconvenient but, not bad.



Once again, I'm not an authority on oils. Just interested in the subject.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[d90boy]

Delo and Schaeffer's are the two engine oils I use. The redline is really good but fairly expensive 12 quarts at a time.

 

[steved]

The CJ-4 base oil is supposed to be superior & some of the additive package may be better but, why are some folks, that are quite familiar with oils, saying to try to use the CI-4+, if possible?

A lot of it is rumor. After reading/starting a couple threads at BITOG, I think the general consensus is that, at least for the CJ-4 Rotella, there is nothing to worry about. It's the whole "change thing"... you know how resistant people are to change... in the not to distant past, the downfall of the CTD was going to be the intro of the electronic 24-valve .



And again, I have a pretty good UOA on CJ-4 that, with almost 10k on the oil, doesn't appear to be the nightmare we have been lead to believe. As I already said, I am not sure the iron is "real" as I would have expected other numbers to be accordingly elevated. And even if the iron is real, I have 3k more miles on my oil than Blackstones universal average. And besides, how many of you actually run 10k OCIs??



And again, the general consensus at BITOG is that this UOA is pretty darn good. Everything is where it should be and the additives are VERY close to that of CI-4 plus. You can see for yourself, they have both VOA and UOA of the CJ-4 at BITOG...



And again, most of what I can find around here is NOS on the shelves... so I can't really concern myself with "should I run CI-4 or should I run CJ-4. " Once the NOS is gone, there will be no choice. And based on my UOA, I'm not going to worry about it. Unlike a lot of you, even at 10k OCIs, I change my oil five times a year. So keeping 15-gallons of oil hanging around would last me a single year...



steved