CJ-4 Rotella used oil analysis...not so bad!

[Gary - K7GLD]

Personally, I've decided to go with the CI-4+ (Chevron Delo-400, 15X40). In fact, I just purchased the last 5 cases from my local Costco. I like the Chevron due to the addition of Moly & Boron into the additive package with the CI-4+.



When the Delo CI-4+ came out, it was praised on 'bob is the oil guy.com' as an extremely high quality conventional oil. They were saying that it is approaching the quality of synthetics. Not bad for a reasonably priced oil.

Absolutely my view as well - Moly and Boron were the icing on the cake to what was already an excellent oil - I'll continue to use it as long as I can get it.

A lot of it is rumor. After reading/starting a couple threads at BITOG, I think the general consensus is that, at least for the CJ-4 Rotella, there is nothing to worry about. It's the whole "change thing"... you know how resistant people are to change... in the not to distant past, the downfall of the CTD was going to be the intro of the electronic 24-valve .

I don't recall any outbursts as to the new CJ stuff being a particular disaster as used in our engines - only that primarily all the hype and hoopla being plastered all over various boards such as this one all were based upon guys who were developing and making money from the sales of the stuff - rather than independent and disassociated third parties with no axes to grind. Made all the exhuberant and grand claims sorta suspect...



Here, all these years, refiners had been spending lotsa $$$ promoting improvements to their engine lubricants thru the use of "robust additive packages" and superiour base stocks - Hell, the Delo CI-4Plus was pretty much the pinnacle of engine lube engineering - as pointed out in an earlier post, about as close to a synthetic as you could get with a Dino -based product.



THEN, suddenly and nearly overnite, we are presented with an "improved" lube that got it's "improvement" from REDUCED additives, and LOWERED additive package - and a TBN that STARTS OUT lower than what we had BEEN dumping in our well used lube - all in the name of "improvement"?



What had actually changed in all the above, what motivated the "Less is MORE" oil company cheerleading and hype? Easy, EPA!



The oil companies really had no choice but to play along with EPA dictates, JUST AS the automakers do - and that involved (in my opinion) PROMOTING the reduction and removal of the very additives and improved lubricant characteristics they had been bragging about and so proud of mere months before!



NOW, in your case, is your wear rate now better with the new stuff, or worse?



Put the 2 oils, CI vs CJ side by side in identical usage, my personal opinion is that the CI stuff will prove superior in wear characteristics, especially as drain intervals are lengthened. Perhaps the difference in wear is trivial in terms of overall engine life, even if I am correct - an engine that "only" gets 400K miles before overhaul vs 500K may well not be important to guys who only keep a truck for 200K miles anyway...



And yeah, like it or not, we'll all be using the new stuff - or it's eventual replacement - as existing supplies of the older CI stuff slowly disappear...

 

[Buffalo]

Steved,



Thanks for posting your UOA results with the new Rotella CJ-4. Looks like it may be a bit more robust than originally thought.



Have you ever considered using a quality, fully-synthetic oil in your truck? With as many miles as you drive & the fact that you already have an oil bypass filtration system on your truck, you seem to be a prime candidate for extended oil drain intervals. If you are still under warranty & want to maintain that warranty, you could go to the 15,000 mile intervals & still be safe with DC, I would guess. Might be something to consider.



I bought some Schaeffer's 9000 & an Oilguard Bypass Filtration system & have not installed either, yet. When I spoke with the Schaeffer's engineer, he said to change the oil at least once a year, no matter how many miles on the oil. I don't drive that many miles & don't think I will get the "bang for your buck" with the 9000 & the bypass filter. Thats why I bought the rest of the Chev. Delo (CI-4+), at Costco. Just changed the oil, today. It's been in the engine for just under a year & I've got just over 9600 miles, on it. Took a UOA & will send it in, tomorrow. I've been extending the OCI's ( oil change intervals) to see just how long the oil lasts. The last two UOA's were at 7900 & 8300 miles. Both results were good.



Gary-K7GLD,



You've got some good points, also. Your opinions "echo" what I've been reading.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[steved]

Joe:

For me, extending out to 10k is plenty. I am still not comfortable enough to run synthetic in my engine. Considering I used to change oil every 3k, then upped to 5k, and now running 10k... I think this "extended" OCI with the bypass will do me. But I will say that if I was to change to synthetic, it would be schaeffer's.

And again, I was more concerned with the CJ-4 not performing well (at all). And after reading and hearing the "horror" rumors about how bad CJ-4 would be, I was pretty concerned about running it 10k... now I have a baseline OCI of 10k on CJ-4 that doesn't look that bad (to me).

steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

All is vanity.



We "enthusiasts" sometimes get WAY too obsessed into our pet areas of special interest.



Threads constantly surface here and in similar forums as new owners, interested in preserving their new investment by giving it "the very best" in lubes, ask what IS the best lube for their truck.



I, personally, have had the time and interest to devote to lengthy and detailed testing of conventional oils as combined with a good bypass filter. And based upon that testing and MANY supporting oil analysis, have come to the conclusion that in moderate climates, ANY decent and properly certified oil is entirely capable of providing totally adequate engine protection and lifespan.



Sure, the upper-crust brands with improved additives and such probably add a bit more protection into the mix - but bottom line, is probably pretty trivial overall.



For more extreme climates and heavy duty usage, the synthetics start providing the specific benefits they excel at - better stability under temp extremes and shear loads - but at a rather steep jump in cost. All of this is in relation to normal oil drain intervals - and both Dino and synthetics can BOTH use extended drain intervals if cost is that significant a factor to the owner.



Then of course, come the bypass filters for maintaining cleaner oil and smaller damaging contaminant particle sizes. Bottom line is, what actually will use of the BEST available oil and complementing bypass filtration setup ACTUALLY get you over the long haul in engine reliability and lifespans - and is it enough to be of significance to the average owner?



I seriously doubt it!



I use the oil and filtration stuff I do because it happens to be an area of special interest to me, and I'm willing to spend the time and extra $$$ to do the testing to see exactly what my stuff is providing in improved lubricating performance. But if I was doing it as some great effort to radically improve engine performance or lifespan, I'd just be kidding myself!



AND, I seriously suspect that owners jumping on the hype of various oil brands and aftermarket devices as some magical elixer that will greatly extend and improve the operation of their engines and drivetrain are also just being gullible, and possibly throwing their $$$ away.



Buy decent, approved oils, change them as the maker recommends, and then just DRIVE the damn truck - odds are, your bottom line return as delivered by your engine will be every bit as good as the guy who fixates and lavishes vast effort and $$$ in giving HIS truck the "very best"...



You see, it's all just obsessive vanity! :-laf

 

[CarlsonR]

I agree,Gary. The difference between walmart dino oil and redline synthetic at the 300-400K mile mark probably would'nt even be measurable as far as a crank journal or cylinder wear go.

 

[steved]

I agree,Gary. The difference between walmart dino oil and redline synthetic at the 300-400K mile mark probably would'nt even be measurable as far as a crank journal or cylinder wear go.

Especially on the CTD, since it is relatively easy on oil...



As I said, I had the CJ-4 UOA done for my own comfort level, my OCIs, and my filtration. I posted it to show REAL and FACTUAL number, no guessing on how it will perform... We each can take the UOA for what we feel it says. But at least it is something to base an opinion on, not just some hype somewhere.



And I got thinking about something the other night in response to that "elevated" iron result... since I don't tow and only run highway miles, could my engine still be breaking in?? (My truck is basically a glorified car and has yet to tow more that 2500#s for any distance) I know my 99 took several hundreds of miles of towing 10k+ pounds at 50k miles to finally see my best mileage, which I attributed to break-in. Maybe things still aren't 100% seated?? Unlike Gaarrry who tows a 5vr?? Thoughts?



steved

 

[amsoilman]

I agree,Gary. The difference between walmart dino oil and redline synthetic at the 300-400K mile mark probably would'nt even be measurable as far as a crank journal or cylinder wear go.

Well here is a link to a demonstraion that shows otherwise:



http://www.amsoil.com/performancetests/jeff_foster_trucking.aspx



Wayne

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Well here is a link to a demonstraion that shows otherwise:



http://www.amsoil.com/performancetests/jeff_foster_trucking.aspx



Wayne

Wayne, you've posted that one before - and like the many I can post on the reduction in various wear metals provided by my fabulous Frantz TP filter, really isn't all that convincing as a bottom line choice maker.



So, Amsoil - AND my Frantz will reduce wear metals by a clearly provable and impressive percentage - SO WHAT? What does that equate to in actual percentage of increased engine lifespan, *I* don't have a clue! IS there any such "proof" outside of some carefully selected and presented Amsoil hit piece?



IF I keep my truck for about 200K miles before trading, WHAT cost or ACTUAL performance gain will EITHER Amsoil or my Frantz filter provide? Sure, we might get that renowned "warm and fuzzy" feeling using such stuff - but what actual benefit to offset the extra $$$ invested?



Do we gain slightly improved fuel mileage - at the added expense and maintenance of add-on/in higher priced lubes and/or filters? What value is it to ME, as the current owner, if actual improved engine lifespan is only realized by the second or third owners? Maybe I'm better of spending the extra $$$ on stuff that provides some measurable benefits to me now, today, such as my Edge Comp - at least *I* get the benefit from that, not some new owner 10 years away!



Don't get me wrong - I recognize and appreciate the better filtration I get from my stuff (not about to take it off!), and also acknowledge the improvements the synthetics can provide - I just feel the actual bottom line benefits to the original truck buyer during the time he typically owns and drives the truck quite likely are not worth the extra $$$ and effort involved - and knowing what I know now, and fully realizing the undeniable benefits provided by my Frantz stuff, I'd probably just take my own advice, use a good grade of oil, change it regularly, and ENJOY driving the truck without fixating on all the added hoops of extra filter installations and maintenance - and undoubtedly get JUST as good operation from the truck as I do now... :-laf

 

[amsoilman]

Wayne, you've posted that one before - and like the many I can post on the reduction in various wear metals provided by my fabulous Frantz TP filter, really isn't all that convincing as a bottom line choice maker.



So, Amsoil - AND my Frantz will reduce wear metals by a clearly provable and impressive percentage - SO WHAT? What does that equate to in actual percentage of increased engine lifespan, *I* don't have a clue! IS there any such "proof" outside of some carefully selected and presented Amsoil hit piece?



IF I keep my truck for about 200K miles before trading, WHAT cost or ACTUAL performance gain will EITHER Amsoil or my Frantz filter provide? Sure, we might get that renowned "warm and fuzzy" feeling using such stuff - but what actual benefit to offset the extra $$$ invested?



Do we gain slightly improved fuel mileage - at the added expense and maintenance of add-on/in higher priced lubes and/or filters? What value is it to ME, as the current owner, if actual improved engine lifespan is only realized by the second or third owners? Maybe I'm better of spending the extra $$$ on stuff that provides some measurable benefits to me now, today, such as my Edge Comp - at least *I* get the benefit from that, not some new owner 10 years away!



Don't get me wrong - I recognize and appreciate the better filtration I get from my stuff (not about to take it off!), and also acknowledge the improvements the synthetics can provide - I just feel the actual bottom line benefits to the original truck buyer during the time he typically owns and drives the truck quite likely are not worth the extra $$$ and effort involved - and knowing what I know now, and fully realizing the undeniable benefits provided by my Frantz stuff, I'd probably just take my own advice, use a good grade of oil, change it regularly, and ENJOY driving the truck without fixating on all the added hoops of extra filter installations and maintenance - and undoubtedly get JUST as good operation from the truck as I do now... :-laf

Gary,



I really posted this due to the comment that CarlsonR had made regarding the difference between walmart dino oil and redline synthetic at the 300-400K mile mark would'nt even be measurable.



I think the demonstration clearly shows there is less wear, better economy, and lower operating costs using the Amsoil synthetics, and by-pass filtering along with oil analysis on this fleet of vehicles. (Jeff Foster trucking has now converted all of his 200 plus trucks over to this system)



As far as you and I are concerned, we may not see these kinds of benefits over the lifespan of our vehicles, but I can testify that in all the vehicles I have owned and used these products in, has given me a very "warm and fuzzy feeling". I also don't have to buy a lot of oil and filters which could harm the environment, as well as helping out the oil cartel.



I have seen some instances where oil analysis has saved engines from catostophic disaster, because undetected problems using regular drain intervals would not have caught the problems.



I have also seen vehicles that have lost fan belts, and there was no damage done due to the Synthetics ability to handle the heat so much better than a petrolium product. One such vehicle was my own, which was a 1996 Seadoo watercraft, that was run for 4 1/2 miles with NO COOLING to the engine. Not only did the engine seize, but it got so stinking hot, ALL the HOSES were burnt off! The thing is still running today!



Yes we ALL have our idea's and what we may think of as the "bottom line", but thank goodness we all have the free agency to pick and choose the things we like in this life. For me, I'll continue to do what I have been doing in terms of oil changes/Oil analysis for the past 27 years.



Respectfully,



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[buddys06]

The local Cummins shop had a huge stack of Delo cases for sale at 8. 99 a gallon if you bought a case. I was in getting a block heater cord so I looked at a case and it was all CI4+ I bought 10 cases:-laf . Set for the next 100,000 miles. There is still anouther 15-20 cases left there but the price went up to 9. 75

 

[CarlsonR]

wayne the oilman, That amsoil advertisment you reccomended i watch, showed me about a fair and unbiased test as i would expect to see on a sunday morning infomercial. The amsoil trucks were set up with bypass systems,while nothing on the other test group. And while the amsoil group did show lower wear materials(lead and iron) I would still bet that if they did a bottom end tear down and acutally measured with a micrometer,they would have found less than a fraction of a thousandth difference in crank and rod journal wear between the two groups. no one is condeming synthetics as bad stuff, in frigid weather i would'nt use anything else but a 5-40,I just personally wouldn't use amsoil because the way it is marketed. Just look at this TDR forum, anyone who starts a thread is most likely going to get pounced on immediately by multiple amway I mean amsoil dealers reccomending their products backed up by non-objective tests like the one you referred me to. It's almost like landing at Cabo San Lucas airport and being overrun by timeshare salesmen. All gary and steved were saying is that there oils are doing fine and they are satisfied, it's great you have confidence in your oil,but your aggressive sales promotion has a negitive impact on alot of potential customers.

 

[amsoilman]

wayne the oilman, That amsoil advertisment you reccomended i watch, showed me about a fair and unbiased test as i would expect to see on a sunday morning infomercial. The amsoil trucks were set up with bypass systems,while nothing on the other test group. And while the amsoil group did show lower wear materials(lead and iron) I would still bet that if they did a bottom end tear down and acutally measured with a micrometer,they would have found less than a fraction of a thousandth difference in crank and rod journal wear between the two groups. no one is condeming synthetics as bad stuff, in frigid weather i would'nt use anything else but a 5-40,I just personally wouldn't use amsoil because the way it is marketed. Just look at this TDR forum, anyone who starts a thread is most likely going to get pounced on immediately by multiple amway I mean amsoil dealers reccomending their products backed up by non-objective tests like the one you referred me to. It's almost like landing at Cabo San Lucas airport and being overrun by timeshare salesmen. All gary and steved were saying is that there oils are doing fine and they are satisfied, it's great you have confidence in your oil,but your aggressive sales promotion has a negitive impact on alot of potential customers.

Gosh man,

I'm sorry you think I was being AGGRESSIVE in promoting this product. I was simply pointing out some documented facts. I suppose it's OK for others to voice their likes with other products and that's OK, but me being an Amsoil dealer makes me a sales promoter. I could care less about what others use in their vehicles, as well as how those other products are marketed.



It all becomes the BOTTOM line, and that is whatever one is pleased with and satisfied with.



Respectfully,



Wayne

 

[RustyJC]

Wayne,



As a moderator on an RVing forum, please allow me to ask respectfully if you take your moderator's hat off when you're posting on an oil-related thread.



Rusty

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

In support of Wayne, his character - and yes, even his product - there is NO ONE on this board I respect more! He makes every effort, and goes the extra mile to provide help and requested or supporting info in a non-offensive manner.



He will ALWAYS have my deepest respect, regardless of our slightly differing viewpoints on oils and their use. I wish this board had lots more members of his calibre...

 

[RustyJC]

Hold on, Gary! I'm not attacking Wayne. My post means exactly what it asks. The rules for moderators on the RVing forum that I refer to are that, once we've posted as a participant in a thread, we have given up our rights to moderate that thread. This is to ensure absolute impartiality. I'm just asking if similar rules apply here.



Rusty

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Hold on, Gary! I'm not attacking Wayne. My post means exactly what it asks. The rules for moderators on the RVing forum that I refer to are that, once we've posted as a participant in a thread, we have given up our rights to moderate that thread. This is to ensure absolute impartiality. I'm just asking if similar rules apply here.



Rusty

Understood - I just wanted to head off a "Wayne-bashing" party...

 

[amsoilman]

Wayne,



As a moderator on an RVing forum, please allow me to ask respectfully if you take your moderator's hat off when you're posting on an oil-related thread.



Rusty

I sent you a PM.



Wayne

 

[JValdez]

Gary,

I agree with you on alot of what you said. I too have seen these trucks run a long time on cheap oil changes from quick lube centers. I had the interest in synthetics because I don't put alot of miles on my truck and was more interested in the fact that I could leave a synthetic in the sump longer than a dino and still be able to put 7500 or so miles on it (I have a take home vehicle from work and have other vehicles to drive). It will take me about 8-12 months to put this amount of miles on the truck and I've been told it's not good to leave an oil in the sump for this long.



Wayne,

I use Amsoil in my other vehicles as well as my parents vehicles and have never had a problem and some of those vehicles have over 200,000 miles on them. If you can give me your opinion on the synthetic and leaving it in the sump for a long time versus the mileage deal.

 

[Buffalo]

JValdez,

I, recently, spoke with an engineer at Schaeffer Oil &, specifically, asked him "how long you could leave their product in the crankcase?" He said to change the oil, at least, once a year. No matter how many miles on the oil.



I just changed the oil on my '03, after having the oil in the crankcase for just under a year & 9626 miles on the oil (Chev. Delo-400, 15X40, CI-4+). Yesterday, they e-mailed me the results & basically said that the oil still looks good.



I, too, thought about switching to synthetic oil but, am reconsidering, now. I just don't put enough miles, on either of my Dodges, to actually warrant its use. However, it sure couldn't hurt!!! I, even, purchased 4 gals. of Schaeffer's 9000 & an Oilguard bypass system.



In the next few years I'm planning an RV trip from AZ to AK & may use the Schaeffer's oil on that trip. It will be a long trip (most likely the entire summer) & I could probably make the entire trip on that one fill.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I don't put alot of miles on my truck and was more interested in the fact that I could leave a synthetic in the sump longer than a dino and still be able to put 7500 or so miles on it (I have a take home vehicle from work and have other vehicles to drive). It will take me about 8-12 months to put this amount of miles on the truck and I've been told it's not good to leave an oil in the sump for this long.

It may seem strange, but that is the primary reason I selected Amsoil for use in my Honda 2000 generator - it sees little actual run time, with long periods idle in between. So, I figured the extra stability of the synthetic, plus other features, makes it a good choice for the generator.