Closer to God

[Champane Flight]

Not me.

I don't believe that anything discussed/argued on this site is anything to lose sleep over. It is good to exchange beliefs and ideas. In the days of the great indian nations everyone exchanged beliefs on creation and walked away with a larger perspective. No one was offended, everyone gained. If someone said that we could not believe in what we want, I would take offense, or defend anyones right to.



Darn I am sounding like a politician. :--)

 

[Mike Ellis]

athompson,



You said in your post that the mainstream Muslim community doesn't teach the killing of non-believers. The evidence, and the facts, show that this is sadly incorrect. There are indeed many, MANY Muslim imams who call out in their worship services for the destruction of the United States, of Israel, of Christians, Jews, infidels, etc. They exhort the faithful toward martyrdom, promising them vast rewards in heaven. This is documented fact, all you have to do is search on the Internet or read the daily news services and you will see references to same.



What disappoints me is that the posts on this topic tar all organized religion with the same brush. People have expressed anger because churches have asked them for money, or because the church members were hypocrits. Few expressed any concern about the fact that Muslims are urged to kill them by some (stress SOME) of their religious leaders. I have no trouble differentiating which of these activities is the more potentially harmful, so it puzzles me that so many people seem to chalk them up as equivalent.



Maybe you guys are right and all organized religions represent the same sort of threat and problem. Here's an idea - let's lock down every church, synagogue, and temple in the United States and push organized religion into the shadows. Now after this is done, let's sit back and see if the threat from the fanatics overseas changes.



Like I said in a previous post, there are members of certain religious groups all around the world whose members will go to bed hoping and praying for nothing but the best for other people in the world, even some of us here on TDR. There are members of a certain other religious group who will go to bed hoping and praying for nothing but the WORST for other people in the world, even some of us here on TDR. If you guys really think the organized religious groups that produce those two different mindsets are really just alike, I guess I don't have any arguments that can convince you otherwise.



My apologies if I have made anyone "feel" uncomfortable with my comments in the thread, but I stand by my convictions and am not ashamed to discuss them. Guess we have to agree to disagree... at least until my preacher gives me a boxcutter and an airline ticket and tells me to kill the infidels...

 

[athompson]

Originally posted by Mike Ellis

athompson,



You said in your post that the mainstream Muslim community doesn't teach the killing of non-believers. The evidence, and the facts, show that this is sadly incorrect.

Please provide this evidence and these facts. I am sure that you will discover that it is NOT the mainstream Muslims that are preaching this. I am also sure that you find that MOST of the world has problems with the US and their policies.

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by athompson

. I am also sure that you find that MOST of the world has problems with the US and their policies.

OF COURSE they have problems with our policies! Why do you think our Fore Fathers left those cesspools of "civilization".



Now, after 200 years, we have saved the entire worlds butt how many times?

The dogs are just trying to bite their masters hand, thats all.



We have the bombs, baby, they can shove it.



A Europeans opinion on our policies is not worth the air it took to blather it out.

Besides that, every country in the world owes us money.

 

[athompson]

Originally posted by Sled Puller

OF COURSE they have problems with our policies! Why do you think our Fore Fathers left those cesspools of "civilization".

I never said that they had valid problems with our policy, but I think that our "Fore Fathers" would even have problems with most of the US policies.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by Mike Ellis

athompson,



You said in your post that the mainstream Muslim community doesn't teach the killing of non-believers.....

Define "mainstream" for any religion.



Are the right to life organizations that post wanted posters of doctors considered mainstream? What about the Mormoms that still practice polygimy(sp?)? Or the catholic priests that molest children?



Most of us define 'mainstream' as people that share our beliefs.....



baby. driver - what was your challenge?



Brian

 

[illflem]

Brain, I think Jay's challenge is to see who can find the challenge in 11 pages of posts

 

[baby.driver]

Challenge

Page 4 first post.

 

[Sled Puller]

Do the challenge, and then whatever the tax man hasn't stole, give the rest to your local church. They will then give you an "eternal life" stamp.

Sorry, it is just too neat and tidy to me.



You know, it goes way back, following the star, bringing GIFTS. Gifts for a baby to a "virgin" mother whos husband had nothing to do with the pregnancy.



Somebody was awful gullible on that deal.



The Jews don't even believe in Jesus, and he WAS a Jew!! Whats with that?!?!?!





I don't buy the evolve bit neither.



Aliens make more sense.

 

[baby.driver]

Sled Puller

Do the challenge and not another thing.



The challenge has nothing to do with going to church, nothing to do with religion. I cannot find the word religion in the bible.



The challenge is between YOU and the man upstairs.



NO ONE on Earth can give you a 'Eternal Life' stamp, just as no one on Earth can deny you eternal life either.

 

[athompson]

Define "mainstream" for any religion.

"The principal or dominate course, tendancy, or trend. " Webster's Dictionary

Are the right to life organizations that post wanted posters of doctors considered mainstream?

Mainstream what? How many of these posters do you see in your church. I've never seen any in mine.

What about the Mormoms that still practice polygimy(sp?)?

Mormons don't "still practice polygamy. " In fact, when they did, it was at a lower rate than the US as a whole. If someone is professing to be Mormon and practices polygamy, they are neither mainstream nor Mormon.

Or the catholic priests that molest children?

Absolutely not. It is appauling that the Catholic Church wouldn't kick them out of the priesthood and the Church after the first occurance and turn them over to the Police rather then just move them to somewhere else.

Most of us define 'mainstream' as people that share our beliefs.....

Does that mean you're not mainstream if you don't agree with me? Or, does it mean that I'm not mainstream because I don't agree with you. (I'm not saying we don't agree, btw. Hey, maybe we're both mainstream. )

 

[Champane Flight]

Mainstream.

In the world according to CF, it appears that not all of the Muslim faith want to kill us. They have a group of radicals (rather large) who teach their own brand (another case of bending the word to your own selfish ways) of their religion. This is condoned by the countrys we call our allies in the middle east. This type of radicalism is being taught to children, therefore breeding hate into many future generations. ANY faith that teaches intolerance should be made to police themselves. That includes most sects of Christians.



I am sure there are churches out there that do a lot of good. But the bad seem to grab the spotlight. I have seen mostly bad. I have known awesome Preists, Ministers, Rabbi's, and other clergy. But on the other hand, the bad have turned me against organized faith.



Everyone can quote or find a quote that will fit their personal need or want. I tend to find the meaning in my heart. To stand on top of a mountain and look out over all of this earth brings me peace. To see a heard of Elk in a meadow grazing peacfully enlightens me. And to feel the bark of a 100+ year old Oak amazes me. How can anyone not believe that there is not some higher power? Yet to let another human interpet it for me and tell me what and how to believe is stupid, nothing less... ...



Subject: FW: BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU PRAY FOR

>

>

> An atheist was taking a walk through the woods. "What majestic

trees!

>

> What powerful rivers! What beautiful animals!" he said to

himself.

>

> As he was walking alongside the river he heard a rustling in the

bushes

> =behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7 foot grizzly charge

towards

> =him. He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his

> shoulder =and saw the bear closing in on him. He looked over his

shoulder

> again, =the bear was even closer. His heart was pumping

frantically

and

> he tried =to run even faster. He tripped and fell on the ground.

>

> He rolled over to pick himself up but saw the bear right on top

of him,

> =reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to

strike

> =him.

>

> At that instant the atheist cried out: "Oh my God, save me!"

>

> Time stopped. The bear froze. The forest was silent. As a

bright

light

> =shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky "You deny my

existence

> for all of these years, teach others I don't =exist, and even

credit

> creation to a cosmic accident. Do you expect me =to help you out

of

this

> predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?"

>

> The atheist looked directly into the light, "It would be

hypocritical

of

> =me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a believer now, but could

you

> =perhaps make the BEAR a believer?"

>

> "Very well," said the voice.

>

> The light went out and the sounds of the forest resumed. Then

the bear

> =dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, and bowed his

head

> =and spoke: "Lord, bless this food which I am about to receive

and for

> =which I am truly thankful. "

>

Now that is funny!!!!!

 

[Mike Ellis]

athompson,



You saved me the trouble of posting the definition of "mainstream". In the context of this religious discussion relating to Islamic terror and jihad, I submit that "mainstream" views include those which are widely preached by the official clerics of their religion, and supported by their followers.



In the nations where rigid Islamic law is the dominant political structure, government policy drives the mainstream view and the government can manipulate the message of hatred to inflame the populace and increase their support base. This has demonstrably happened. The 9/11 terrorists had an elaborate network of financial sponsors and were sheltered and trained in nations supporting their murderous agenda before coming to America. Our recent military operations in Afghanistan to root out the Al Qaida network and the Islamic leadership that supported them would be considered evidence of the linkage by some I guess.



There are bazillions of links via Google to articles and discussions that describe the message of hatred being spread within Islam toward America and Israel. A google search on "Muslim" and "Death to America" produces 3,030 hits. Searches on combinations of other terms such as Islamic leader, cleric, jihad, America, provide tens of thousands of hits. Evidence of the religious leaders teaching their followers to hate America is abundant. Read the newspapers. Watch TV. Spend some time in the Middle East amongst Christians, Jews, and Muslims (I have, it is most informative to experience the frictions first-hand)



Here are a few links from the above searches, hopefully they will show up right in the post:



Link to National Review article discussing terrorist fundraising at American mosques:

http://www.factsofisrael.com/load.php?p=http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000203.html



Sheikh Abu Hamza preaches jihad from London’s Finsbury Park mosque:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/WTC_london011022.html



Saudi Pastor on Widespread Muslim Hatred of America and Why it Exists

http://www.banneroftruth.co.uk/articles/2002/01/muslims.htm



Thousands of Iranian militiamen chant “Death to America”

http://www.iranexpert.com/2002/exusembassy24november.htm



South African Muslims march from mosque to American consulate in support of suicide bombers

http://www.factsofisrael.com/load.php?p=http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000524.html



Article on the “Death to America” mindset

http://www.bereanpublishers.co.nz/Cults/Muslims/death_to_america.htm



Article on American Muslim Council and their support for terrorists:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/423



Article Listing Militant Islam Attacks on Americans

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/460



Militant Islam Rising to Power in Indonesia, Bangladesh, Nigeria

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/491