Clutch Install Horror Story

[GCroyle]

TDR,



I think a lot of you have figured it out that I work for a clutch company and the CTD is my truck of choice.



This tale is not brand specific, in fact the clutch was an innocent bystander, but this story was too painful not to pass on to the membership.



G56, unable to shift.

Pilot bearing failed, input shaft damaged at pilot nose, clutch disc splines showing a wiping pattern with side burrs in the tooth flanks. The owner had to park the truck as they could no longer shift it, disassembly found the above list of visible damage.



I had a long discussion with the neighbor that was fixing the truck for the owner, they were good friends to say the least. As we went over the list and searching for the RED X that indicated ground zero for the the symptoms started to point in one direction, this clutch system was killed due to concentric misalignment or a combination of concentric misalignment and angular misalignment of the input shaft to the crankshaft. I explained to the caller what the problem looks like by using your index fingers and touching them tip to tip, perfectly straight, now drop one finger down by 1/16" or so and give it a couple of degrees of downward angle, now put the pilot bearing at the tip to tip and the clutch disc, pressure plate and flywheel in the middle, see how this would tear up the pilot and the disc as it tries to be a flexible coupling and rag joint to this misalignment.



What controls the input shaft to crankshaft alignment?



The two dowel sleeves on either side of the engine adaptor and they slide into precision holes in the transmission. The bolt holes are a clearance fit and do not control alignment, they only clamp the parts together.



The caller then went out to the truck, got under it and said you mean these right here?



He stated that the dowel sleeves had been cut off flush at the engine adaptor to trans face with a saw or grinder. He could see the tooth marks in the aluminum.



The installation that they paid big money for was no easy way to say it a butcher job. And I don't mean to insult the fine meat cutters that read this, I just don't have another word for it.



The repair will require removal of the stub ends of the sleeves, cleaning up the holes, but the BIG investment is getting the damaged input shaft replaced and any damage to the input shaft bearing and related internals.



One of the biggest challenges to any successful repair for clutches or for that matter any repair is ATTENTION TO DETAIL, this was not lack of attention to detail it was a willful act that is now costing the owner big unnecessary additional repairs.



When I do an installation, I clean the sleeves if necessary with a Scotch Brite or similar and the mating holes and then apply a light coat of grease to make them slide freely and help prevent corrosion.



The one thing that I went home feeling good about was that the over 45 minutes that we spent walking through the entire situation rather than giving the caller a quick answer was I'm very confident that we found the RED X.

 

[Regcabguy]

Would you consider moving to San Diego?

 

[GCroyle]

San Diego, don't know much about it. I'm becoming a fan of small town America and continuing to pursue my Associate Degree of Redneck, but I ain't quite got it yet. I got a best buddy neighbor that has a Masters in Redneck, he's a good guy.



I'm not sure if everyone understands why I think they cut the dowel sleeves off or not.



W/O the sleeves the trans is much easier to install, don't have to be so fussy, just ram it in, hit the bolts and it's invoice time.



But one time we had a guy hit us for a claim against a F/W for a Chevy that he stated was machined on the wrong side.



We determined beyond any doubt that he had it on BACKWARDS, the bolt marks don't lie, still have the part too, hung it on the wall.

 

[RJAnderson]

Installing a clutch is a relatively straight forward task compared to other services and diagnostics that are performed on vehicles today. Yet, the mechanic who did this repair obviously had no basic knowledge as to the function and critical importance of dowel pins. What if such incompetence had been applied to a wheel hub or steering component? Perhaps the result would have been serious bodily injury or death.



What factors led up to this repair that showed absolute incompetence on the part of the installer. Maybe the vehicle owner looked for the cheapest repair shop. Maybe the repair shop hired the person they could pay the least wages just to increase business profits. Whatever the reason, who gets the black eye? The automotive repair industry does. Thats who, and I will tell you why the auto repair industry keeps getting these black eyes as they historically have. There are NO LICENSING requirements for vehicle repairers in SC and most others states. NONE. In SC you have to have a license to groom a dog. That is right, to give fido a bath you better have a state license obtained from formal training and testing. Think of all the trades requiring a license; plumbers, electricians, HVAC, barbers, cosmetologists, health care workers and so on. These are true professions. They have a standard and if you do not meet it you cannot work in that trade. Anybody can be an auto tech. You may ask your self, "How can this be, we do have ASE don't we?" The National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence (ASE) is an independent agency that test technicians who VOLUNTEER to take the tests. It is not a requirement in the industry. As a matter of fact, ASE got its beginnings in the late 1960's when congress was going to inact a national licensing requirement for auto techs due to the large number of consumer complaints against the industry. Yet, the manufacturers lobbied against it but recommended as an alternative that technicians could VOLUNTAIRLY become certified and the consumer could decide where to take his vehicle. So, the National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence was formed to fill this role. You will have to do your homework to validate my story because I rarely see this information in print but clearly remember reading about it many years ago.



I have friends and relatives who work in the trades requiring licensing and have worked with them at times. I will tell you what, there is more collective knowledge and skill required to be a real auto technicain than in the other trades. Some of those people used to work as auto techs but found it easier to work in another trade. Is it not ironic though that they require some standards (licensing) to work those other trades but not in the auto repair industry?



I would like to expound more but I promised fido I would give him a bath.



Ray Anderson

ASE Certified Master Auto Tech

 

[GCroyle]

Ray,



Very interesting perspective, I cannot challenge the SC laws about who can do what and claim expertise, nor do I wish to offer any information about where this clutch was installed or who did the installation, I do not know.



I think I am on the same page as you about incompetence of SOME of the people that we contract to do jobs that are out of our skill level. My home needed a new roof after about 7 years. The architectural shingles in certain sections were nailed on above the overlap of the two sections and the bottom sections just dripped off on extreme heat days, required a tear off and replacement, the builder was no longer responsible according to an attorney that we consulted, we were stuck with the bill because they didn't nail the shingles correctly.



From your post:

"Installing a clutch is a relatively straight forward task compared to other services and diagnostics that are performed on vehicles today. "



Generally speaking I agree. I don't know of any precision measuring other than possibly checking a F/W offset, no shimming like a manual transmission, the only open bearing is a pilot bearing and they are supposed to come pre-lubricated. But one thing that I have never found to exist on our market of US vehicles is any fault codes for clutches, flywheels or hydraulic systems so a sound understanding of the relationship of the components and their roles is darn important. And stabbing the trans is one of the most potentially challenging steps in the process and can lead to a lot of damage if done carelessly.



I actually support ASE for their efforts and have a special participation certificate in my office from that support. But with all that ASE is trying to do and focusing on new trends in vehicles, I bet that there are only a handful of questions in the clutch section that actually apply to clutches, they are expanding on growing technologies rather than older technologies, they study and target growth areas, clutches are a shrinking market. Look at Ford and GM, they don't offer handshakers behind their diesels anymore.



My purpose is not to offend, I have ZERO information on the installer. It was to point out the mistake made during the clutch installation, if we (together) would have not explored what happened, the circumstances would have created a similar outcome and the black eye would have been a pair rather than a single.



Ray, I think I saw that this was your first post, welcome to TDR and I doubt that the installer had taken the time to become a Certified Master Auto Tech like yourself.

 

[rbattelle]

He stated that the dowel sleeves had been cut off flush at the engine adaptor to trans face with a saw or grinder. He could see the tooth marks in the aluminum.

Good grief. One has to wonder what made the fool who did this cut the dowel pins off? He must've had some trouble getting the transmission reinstalled, which led him to the conclusion that the dowel pins were just "getting in the way".



Ryan

 

[Bill Stockard]

Good grief. One has to wonder what made the fool who did this cut the dowel pins off? He must've had some trouble getting the transmission reinstalled, which led him to the conclusion that the dowel pins were just "getting in the way".



Ryan

Yep, that's an expample of "beating the flat rate".



Bill

 

[jelag]

I also am in the clutch business... last night, 4:25 pm a customer calls from a very well known non-profit that builds houses for people who can't afford them... . they wanted a clutch for a C50 Chevy truck, wanted to pick it up right away so it could be installed overnight (no flywheel grind) so the truck could run tomorrow... .

We looked and found that specific truck might have one of 3 clutches based on how the truck was powered at the factory... and how it was transmissioned at the factory... . but a question or two into the conversation told us that a few years ago, a transmission failure had meant a swap to something other than the factory one... .

We told the customer, we don't have a clue whats there... but could in fact pull from stock what he needed once we saw what he had... since most of the time we don't sell a "KIT" but specific parts... as most parts fit more than one application so by mixing and matching we can cover more applications...

Another 3-4 minutes into the conversation we decided that he, like the guy who installed the clutch the first time was "" a butcher"" and politely told the customer to remove the clutch, bring it to us in the morning and we'll sort it out for him...

He asked if he could buy all the parts for all 3 ""best guesses"" and install what he needed over night... . We again politely declined and suggest that he might consider taking his business down the street where maybe better people could help him find the right item... . We suggested the local Napa Store (3 blocks away) wished him luck with his needs and if tomorrow (this morning) he needed help we'd be there at 7:30... .

I'm heading to the shop in a few minutes after I write this..... I've always wondered why I lost my hair early... . I wonder if he'll be on our door step when I get there... .

Gary... .

The miss-alignment issue and the way you described it was very good... . the idea of two fingers is something I'd never thought about... Thank you for the idea...

 

[Wingate]

What I find most interesting is that the time spent cutting off the dowel pins was more than likely longer than the time it took to slow down a little and put it together ON the dowel pins!!!. .

Its commonplace for people to worry more about getting something fixed rather than finding out why it failed to begin with.

GCroyle... Kudos to you and your neighbor for not simply "slinging" parts at it and sending it back out the door...

Personally, I hope I NEVER see a clutch again. Had one get up into the floorboard with me one time... . NOT what you want to have happen at 7K+ RPM. . !!!. . God protects to young and STUPID!!!. .

 

[GCroyle]

Wingate,



I didn't mean to confuse anyone, but I have not worked on this truck, it is about 1500 miles away, I have just offered Tech Support to the installer. And I think later today, I'll call him back and check on the job.



We did install a clutch here at Perfection for a former TDR member and one of his dowel sleeves was missing and the damage was starting to show up in his disc. We determined that the missing dowel was due to an exchanged transmission and no one noticed the missing dowel.



I personally think missing dowels are more often than not due to an engine or trans swap out, no one notices that they are missing.



UNRELATED INSTALLATION.

We did do an installation a couple of years ago Mitsubishi Spyder, 5th clutch at 47,000 miles. Documented installer errors and MAJOR DRIVER ERRORS. This car had a total of 4 clutches on one flywheel and no one resurfaced it, unless you count the air tool buffing (roloc?) one guy did.

 

[Wingate]

Wingate,







UNRELATED INSTALLATION.

This car had a total of 4 clutches on one flywheel and no one resurfaced it, unless you count the air tool buffing (roloc?) one guy did.

Thats NOT an acceptable machining process????... gggeeeezzzz... you clutch guys sure are picky!!!. .



I performed a similar repair on a previously failed clutch assy. (guy tried to replace it himself) I disassembled it and found that the flywheel was black and blue... after a couple of questions to him it was determined that he did NOT pull the flywheel for resurface/replacement due to not having the correct socket to get the flywheel bolts loose!!!!

THe guy spent good money on a Centerforce clutch assy. and washed it down the drain due to a $10 socket from Sears!!!. .

 

[GCroyle]

Wingate,



It gets worse, the last time they hung a clutch on it, the bolt holes on the F/W for the clutch cover still had SOLVENT/GOO in them, as they tightened the bolts, the GOO squirted out dripped into the disc and contaminated it before the owner ever stepped on the pedal. How do we know? It left fantastic trail marks on the F/W surface right onto the disc, 3 distinct parallel tracks.



Then give the car to an owner that engaged the clutch at about 2500-3000 RPM EVERY TIME as a matter of SOP, clutch didn't stand a chance.



I have a pdf. writeup of the installation with pics, PM me with e-mail address if anyone would like a copy, too large to attach 400k.



You don't want to hear about the stepped F/W resurfacing of the step with a disc grinder then huh?

 

[surfbeetle]

Would you consider moving to San Diego?

I second that... I hate my new (one year old) clutch!

 

[GCroyle]

Surfbeetle, Sorry your clutch isn't working out to your satisfaction.



Let me state again, I didn't start this as a solicitation for business, it's just an educational thread, and we might have a bit of fun while we read this too.



NEW SITUATION:

"These are pretty brainless to install. If everything doesn't line up, you can't bolt the transmission in. "



The above is is a quote from a dealership who will be un-named, I'm not even identifying the brand of truck that states that a clutch tore up a transmission in 4 days, destroyed pilot bearing race on input shaft, chipped teeth on 5th gear in a 6 speed and a counter shaft. The job of a clutch is to turn the input shaft, but only under the control of the driver, it doesn't create the envelope it lives in, it just lives there.



Update on the G56 that started this thread.

I hoped the Tech Support got things off in a correct direction, the guy fixing the truck used a tap, threaded it part way into the sleeve, vise grips and wiggled it out, nicely done. Bad news, they couldn't find the required sleeves in the Dodge parts lookup, possible confusion, unknown.



They chose to use hollow ROLL PINS somehow to create new sleeves. They might be OK, I just don't know.



I don't feel so good anymore, I wish them luck.

 

[surfbeetle]

Thanks. When I bought my clutch, I had the idea that I would do the install myself, I've done several on my VW felt comfortable with my ability to do it. The time it would take me and down time for the truck was the issue as I didn't have a spare car to drive at the time. So with my clutch in hand, I paid someone to do it. I believe that it is the clutch that was not balanced properly more so than the installation as the guy I used works exclusively on Dodge Diesels.



The truck will intermittently vibrate when idling, I can let the clutch partially out a bit with the brake on and push it again and the vibration will stop. It's almost like there's a sweet spot that causes the vibration.

Since I brought my parts to the shop to have them install, it's not like I can get them to pull it apart on their dime to see what's up like if I had just gotten the parts through them. Calling the manufacturer to ask about it got me no where either, they said it was the rest of my truck, not their clutch. So I'm waiting until I can afford to do it over again. Oh well, live and learn.

 

[GCroyle]

Surfbeetle,



I have never done a real Bug clutch, but I watched my ex co-worker do his old Bug, not bad until it was time to tighten the gland nut, no HD torque wrench available, no problem, big breaker bar, piece of pipe, many much Lb/Ft all is well... ..... for about 2 days till the gland nut head popped off. How about the guys that left the little shipping clips in under the levers of the old 3 finger coil spring clutches on Bugs?



OK, now your question.

Vibration, erratic, is it the engine, F/W, pressure plate or disc?



You can isolate the disc and input shaft from the evaluation selecting a gear and pressing down and holding the clutch in a released condition. Bring the RPM up, does it vibrate? If yes, with the disc removed it might be an out of balance F/W or pressure plate. If no, select Neutral, repeat RPM increase, observe, release clutch again, engage clutch again, RPM up repeat several times. Observe.



If the vibration was never present when the trans was in gear, clutch released then the disc was not contributing to the balance equation. But if by increasing RPM with the trans in N and selecting different arbitrary centerline positions for the disc, now you are starting to get an idea and the one question I'm wondering about involves the balance of the disc and most important, the pilot bearing.



If you have a severely out of balance disc and a loose pilot bearing then at uncontrolled times/positions (random concentric but temporary mis-alignment) the disc can go to a MAXIMUM MISTAKE (R. Patton) out of balance position and your erratic balance situation can be created.







If this makes sense, you did a good job of following. Please let me know if any of this makes sense, it hurt my head typing it. Remember released is pedal down, Engaged is pedal up.

 

[surfbeetle]

It hurt my head to read it the first time. I'm going to print this out and give it a go to see what I can figure out. I can say that when I'm in 1st and idling, with the clutch engaged (pedal up) I feel no vibration.

 

[surfbeetle]

Well I tried the steps outlined above a few different times. I think I fall into the Maximum Mistake scenario. It seems to be very erratic when trying to test it for disc isolation etc. At first it seemed that when I put it in gear and raised the rpms to 1000 from the 800 at idle that it smoothed out. Then I went to 1500 rpms and it smoothed out. Then the next time at 1000, it was still a bit rough. I also tried in neutral, clutch released (pedal down) and clutch engaged (pedal up) and again, inconsistency.

 

[GCroyle]

If your engine is vibration free at various RPM ranges with the clutch pedal down/released and you have vibration with the clutch pedal up/engaged then I would lean toward involvement of the disc creating the vibration.



I don't like this scenario, makes me think the the input shaft is not guided and wobbling when released.



The pic's are from AndyMan's truck, former TDR member. We opened it up and found that the pilot bearing had been moved out of position and started to come out the back of the F/W. We think this was a bit of a careless install or a detail was overlooked, one dowel pin was missing, sent back with the trans core. Trans was replaced previously. Sorry about the quality of the images.

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Gary, If I need a clutch, I would consider having the truck towed to your shop!