Any Info out there on the performance of the different fuel pumps with potentially viscous (cold) biofuels. Most of us are familiar with the VP44 lift pump issues..... what about the p7100 and earlier models. Should we be running a fuel pressure gauge if we are pushing the limits with bio fuels and cold.
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Cold Bio And Fuel Pumps
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I was running 40%bio and it got cold 16-18degrees and truck ran fine however my fp gauge was dropping, instead of 14 lbs idle and 10 at wot it dropped to 10 idle and got as low as 4psi while on the go pedel on the way home to change the filter.
I put in the new filter and was back to 14 idle 10 wot. I put in 2 gallons of K1 and some antigel that probably didnt help, i also topped it off with diesel, than it was cut to about 10% and is working fine. I am doing some messing around with different ways to improve the bio so it doesnt jell so early I think i can get it down to about 11- 14 degrees but wont know till the next batch. I will stick with b10-b20 for the rest of the winter just to be safe.
the guys on the bio site i hit are running into the same problems with the older cummins also,some of them around 92 are having tble with the fuel lines breaking down (plastic or hard rubber) this is a super site,http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums most of the info is real good, beware of some of the other sites as they dont know what they are talking about, ie bad info that wont fly. good luck. :-laf
Dirk
I was running 40%bio and it got cold 16-18degrees and truck ran fine however my fp gauge was dropping, instead of 14 lbs idle and 10 at wot it dropped to 10 idle and got as low as 4psi while on the go pedel on the way home to change the filter.
I put in the new filter and was back to 14 idle 10 wot. I put in 2 gallons of K1 and some antigel that probably didnt help, i also topped it off with diesel, than it was cut to about 10% and is working fine. I am doing some messing around with different ways to improve the bio so it doesnt jell so early I think i can get it down to about 11- 14 degrees but wont know till the next batch. I will stick with b10-b20 for the rest of the winter just to be safe.
the guys on the bio site i hit are running into the same problems with the older cummins also,some of them around 92 are having tble with the fuel lines breaking down (plastic or hard rubber) this is a super site,http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums most of the info is real good, beware of some of the other sites as they dont know what they are talking about, ie bad info that wont fly. good luck. :-laf
Dirk
Last edited by a moderator:
Bob Wagner
TDR MEMBER
Here is some interesting reading
BOSCH VP44
Easy to identify, there is no mechanical connection to the pump from the accelerator pedal, and very small cast flange to which the high pressure delivery lines attach. It is a compact and very capable pump when working correctly, often being used in very large applications such as buses and lorries, as well as Ford Focus to name but one!.
The VP44 is a fully electronic controlled pump. Early units had two ECU 's one internal to the pump and an external engine or vehicle mounted unit. Later pumps combine both ECU's in the pump case.
Being still relatively new, and untill recently, no service information or spare parts has been available, little is known as to its capability for use on Vegetable oils. Issues of pump problems associated with Biodiesel have been reported, where the methanol content attacks internal position sensors.
What is known, of failures on Diesel fuel, suggest a lubrication issue of the distributor rotor similar to the Lucas/CAV series. In common with the Lucas pumps, Fuel and hence lubrication is cut off to the rotorhead during conditions of overrun (engine braking)
Research also suggests any restriction in fuel supply to the pump, for instance a partial filter blockage could also cause damage to the pump, through lubrication starvation.
Early models were quite prone to failing on Diesel, and the distributor rotor assy, has been through three different updates since the pump was first made. Later pumps are therefore more reliable in this respect, but care must be excersised if attempting the use of Vegetable oils with these pumps.
-Ive just received a VP44, that Ive recently won on Ebay for the huge sum of 99p! It is intended for a Volvo FL250 Tractor Unit, and was manufactured late February 03, but I have other plans for it, such as a full strip-down and assessment for Vegetable oil use!
A preliminary inspection has been carried out, and found that the distributor rotor is of a similar size to the Lucas/CAV series, and as such, will probably cause trouble with cold oils
There appears to be a similarity in construction to both the Lucas/CAV, DPC and the Stanadyne DB 2 series
The Position Sensor appears to be a Hall-Effect device, similar to that used in Video Recorders, where they are used as reel-table rotation sensors. It is connected to the main FPCU ( fuel pump control unit, mounted at the top of the pump) by a rather delicate ribbon cable, of the type commonly used in Domestic Electronic equipment At present it is not understood what effect Methanol has on this sensor. If anyone has a VP44 position sensor thats failed on BioDiesel, --Please contact me so as I can compare it with a known good sensor to find its failure mode.
Sensor update, The Position sensor appears to be a set up of three coils, and not a Hall effect device as previously thought. The Average DC resistance of these is around 77-85 ohms.
A suspect dead VP44 pump can be tested before removal from the engine by first disconnecting the main plug, and locating pins 6 and 7. These are at the right hand side of the socket on the pump when looking at the socket with the pump top uppermost. The pins are numbered in the socket.
Connect a lead from a good earth or Batt - to pin 6
Connect a lead from Batt + to pin 7, Make sure the lead has a good contact, and capable of passing up to 30A, also, make sure it wont come loose when the engine starts, Dont allow it to come into contact with any other pin, or earth while connected to the battery!
tie back the plug that normally goes to the pump, to prevent shorts.
Operate engine starter, If engine starts and idles correctly, then there is a good chance the pump is fine.
Most problems are associated with bad connections, as some pass high currents which are prone to trouble. The contacts in the pump plug can work loose, but can be tightened carefully with a very small screw-driver.
----More soon!
BOSCH VP44
Easy to identify, there is no mechanical connection to the pump from the accelerator pedal, and very small cast flange to which the high pressure delivery lines attach. It is a compact and very capable pump when working correctly, often being used in very large applications such as buses and lorries, as well as Ford Focus to name but one!.
The VP44 is a fully electronic controlled pump. Early units had two ECU 's one internal to the pump and an external engine or vehicle mounted unit. Later pumps combine both ECU's in the pump case.
Being still relatively new, and untill recently, no service information or spare parts has been available, little is known as to its capability for use on Vegetable oils. Issues of pump problems associated with Biodiesel have been reported, where the methanol content attacks internal position sensors.
What is known, of failures on Diesel fuel, suggest a lubrication issue of the distributor rotor similar to the Lucas/CAV series. In common with the Lucas pumps, Fuel and hence lubrication is cut off to the rotorhead during conditions of overrun (engine braking)
Research also suggests any restriction in fuel supply to the pump, for instance a partial filter blockage could also cause damage to the pump, through lubrication starvation.
Early models were quite prone to failing on Diesel, and the distributor rotor assy, has been through three different updates since the pump was first made. Later pumps are therefore more reliable in this respect, but care must be excersised if attempting the use of Vegetable oils with these pumps.
-Ive just received a VP44, that Ive recently won on Ebay for the huge sum of 99p! It is intended for a Volvo FL250 Tractor Unit, and was manufactured late February 03, but I have other plans for it, such as a full strip-down and assessment for Vegetable oil use!
A preliminary inspection has been carried out, and found that the distributor rotor is of a similar size to the Lucas/CAV series, and as such, will probably cause trouble with cold oils
There appears to be a similarity in construction to both the Lucas/CAV, DPC and the Stanadyne DB 2 series
The Position Sensor appears to be a Hall-Effect device, similar to that used in Video Recorders, where they are used as reel-table rotation sensors. It is connected to the main FPCU ( fuel pump control unit, mounted at the top of the pump) by a rather delicate ribbon cable, of the type commonly used in Domestic Electronic equipment At present it is not understood what effect Methanol has on this sensor. If anyone has a VP44 position sensor thats failed on BioDiesel, --Please contact me so as I can compare it with a known good sensor to find its failure mode.
Sensor update, The Position sensor appears to be a set up of three coils, and not a Hall effect device as previously thought. The Average DC resistance of these is around 77-85 ohms.
A suspect dead VP44 pump can be tested before removal from the engine by first disconnecting the main plug, and locating pins 6 and 7. These are at the right hand side of the socket on the pump when looking at the socket with the pump top uppermost. The pins are numbered in the socket.
Connect a lead from a good earth or Batt - to pin 6
Connect a lead from Batt + to pin 7, Make sure the lead has a good contact, and capable of passing up to 30A, also, make sure it wont come loose when the engine starts, Dont allow it to come into contact with any other pin, or earth while connected to the battery!
tie back the plug that normally goes to the pump, to prevent shorts.
Operate engine starter, If engine starts and idles correctly, then there is a good chance the pump is fine.
Most problems are associated with bad connections, as some pass high currents which are prone to trouble. The contacts in the pump plug can work loose, but can be tightened carefully with a very small screw-driver.
----More soon!
Hi Bob
sounds like quite a project. I looked at svo before i decided to do the bio thing.
If the bio is washed properly it should not have Any Methanol in it and the soap will be all but gone. But there are some who are not washing the fuel, they just let it settle for a couple of months and run the top 2/3 of the container. My vp seems to like the bio, it is quieter and doesnt smoke much (I took my catcher out for now,it tends to slip my stock transmission/tc. ) When it dies DTT will be the ticket.
Keep us posted on your project.
Dirk
Sorry poor mine is a 98. 5 24V CTD Auto 4X4 Bosio 275 Injectors Allmost ready for my caTcher 170k :-laf
sounds like quite a project. I looked at svo before i decided to do the bio thing.
If the bio is washed properly it should not have Any Methanol in it and the soap will be all but gone. But there are some who are not washing the fuel, they just let it settle for a couple of months and run the top 2/3 of the container. My vp seems to like the bio, it is quieter and doesnt smoke much (I took my catcher out for now,it tends to slip my stock transmission/tc. ) When it dies DTT will be the ticket.
Keep us posted on your project.
Dirk
Sorry poor mine is a 98. 5 24V CTD Auto 4X4 Bosio 275 Injectors Allmost ready for my caTcher 170k :-laf
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Been running B100 (soybean oil) for 6mo. with no problems so far. Only thing I needed to do was change the fuel filter a little earlier than normal due to bio cleaning the fuel system out. Bio has a natural detergent property and it will clean your system.
Truck is quieter (less pinging), smoother, feels stronger (higher cetane in bio) and I actually gained 1mpg as well. I don't see any reason to go back to #2 unless there is a cold snap and it gets below 30deg. which here in Texas don't happen often.
Bio is like #2 as long as you are getting it from a good source there should be no problems. If you are making you're own you are left up to your own devices.
Cottonseed oil works real good too except that it is thicker and heavier. I stopped running it cause I was afraid of loosing the LP or the VP44 due to the strain of a heavier fuel.
Truck is quieter (less pinging), smoother, feels stronger (higher cetane in bio) and I actually gained 1mpg as well. I don't see any reason to go back to #2 unless there is a cold snap and it gets below 30deg. which here in Texas don't happen often.
Bio is like #2 as long as you are getting it from a good source there should be no problems. If you are making you're own you are left up to your own devices.
Cottonseed oil works real good too except that it is thicker and heavier. I stopped running it cause I was afraid of loosing the LP or the VP44 due to the strain of a heavier fuel.
I was worried last night (Wed) the forecast was a low of 17*. I have nothing but B100 in the tank. Left it plugged in all night it started Thurs morning and ran just fine. One thing I did do around midnight was to let the truck get up to operating temps. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I was thinking about the fuel return line back to the tank. Why not let the engine get up to operating temps and let the excess fuel flow into the tank that has been warmed to a certain extent by the engine. Kinda like stirring the tank.
I know the fuel will get cold again. but at least I stirred it up and let it get a little warmer. Am I off my rocker here. I know the cloud point of B100 (soybean oil)is 0* and it didn't get that low, but it was cold.
We don't get weather this cold often as well as the little bit of sleet that came with it. After the summers we have it is nice to see it.
I know the fuel will get cold again. but at least I stirred it up and let it get a little warmer. Am I off my rocker here. I know the cloud point of B100 (soybean oil)is 0* and it didn't get that low, but it was cold.
We don't get weather this cold often as well as the little bit of sleet that came with it. After the summers we have it is nice to see it.
You might want to look into the "pumps, lines, and whatnots" thread https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11672 to see how much fuel is returned to the tank in idle. At idle, 18gph I think it has.
Bob Weis
Bob Weis
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Doing the DSE in my situation... .
I have about 20-25% in my tank and it has been down to ... 0 degrees... overnight. I drive truck for a living so the truck sat for a week in this cold..... only got up to 25 degrees during the day...
Started up the truck today with just the grids, kicked right over... Only problem was my PS pump howled for a bit but I changed out that fluid when I got home. . (old) .
I have a small jar in my freezer that has 50/50 of DSE and #2... and at 0 to -2 degrees, it seems to be clouding... but... it was liquid so I'd say 50/50 would be sorta good on short stetches or a daily drive in very cold weather... .
I am going to keep at around 20-25% during the winter where we get very cold weather here in Salt Lake City. Record low here in 1972 was -11 . . Brr. once the average gets up to 50-60 degrees, I will try 50/50 and then like 75% at least in the summer.
I have about 20-25% in my tank and it has been down to ... 0 degrees... overnight. I drive truck for a living so the truck sat for a week in this cold..... only got up to 25 degrees during the day...
Started up the truck today with just the grids, kicked right over... Only problem was my PS pump howled for a bit but I changed out that fluid when I got home. . (old) .
I have a small jar in my freezer that has 50/50 of DSE and #2... and at 0 to -2 degrees, it seems to be clouding... but... it was liquid so I'd say 50/50 would be sorta good on short stetches or a daily drive in very cold weather... .
I am going to keep at around 20-25% during the winter where we get very cold weather here in Salt Lake City. Record low here in 1972 was -11 . . Brr. once the average gets up to 50-60 degrees, I will try 50/50 and then like 75% at least in the summer.
Shobbs,
where are you getting B100 in Texas? the most i've found is B20 in WILLE Land...
I'm in Blanco, just north of SA...
where are you getting B100 in Texas? the most i've found is B20 in WILLE Land...
I'm in Blanco, just north of SA...
LStanphill,
I'm getting the B100 near Downtown Ft Worth at DFWbiodiesel. They were selling B20 till the state told them to knock it off. All bio blends have to be tested now according to the state and it must meet the NOx emission standards of the new low sulphur diesel. B20 does increase NOx by 3%, or around that. Dallas/Ft Worth is in jeopardy of loosing thier federal hiway funds if they don't crack down on the emissions and NOx is a big one.
On another note the B100 surprised me this week. Wednesday night it was 17* and Thursday it was 14*, with no problems, gelling or power loss. Truck was plugged in each night and fired right up the next morning. The place where I get the B100 was asking $2. 45/gal last week, #2 is around $2. 35-. 40/gal. I am currently checking on the going rate for soybean oil, I think there is something funny going on with the prices and inquiring minds want to know.
I'm getting the B100 near Downtown Ft Worth at DFWbiodiesel. They were selling B20 till the state told them to knock it off. All bio blends have to be tested now according to the state and it must meet the NOx emission standards of the new low sulphur diesel. B20 does increase NOx by 3%, or around that. Dallas/Ft Worth is in jeopardy of loosing thier federal hiway funds if they don't crack down on the emissions and NOx is a big one.
On another note the B100 surprised me this week. Wednesday night it was 17* and Thursday it was 14*, with no problems, gelling or power loss. Truck was plugged in each night and fired right up the next morning. The place where I get the B100 was asking $2. 45/gal last week, #2 is around $2. 35-. 40/gal. I am currently checking on the going rate for soybean oil, I think there is something funny going on with the prices and inquiring minds want to know.
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SHobbs
Just a little heads up, when you fuel up get a jelly jar (small and lid) put it about 1/2 full and seal it up good and leave it sit on your dash or floor ,mine is in the cup holder.
B100 will turn to soft butter at around 13-15°f depending who makes it, you can stirr it but it wont pour. If your running b100 this will tell ya what it looks like in your tank. My last batch mixed with some dino stays clear to -2°f and have had no trouble,as long as the dino is winter blend.
I keep the truck at around 3/4 tank max, that way i can flood with dino if it gets below 0, I dont like to walk.
It is real interesting to watch the jelly jar, just a couple degrees will change it quite a bit .
Dirk
PS the previous post i was having trouble was not with the bd it was the station i fueled up at did not have winter blend in their tank... Real nice of em in december.
Just a little heads up, when you fuel up get a jelly jar (small and lid) put it about 1/2 full and seal it up good and leave it sit on your dash or floor ,mine is in the cup holder.
B100 will turn to soft butter at around 13-15°f depending who makes it, you can stirr it but it wont pour. If your running b100 this will tell ya what it looks like in your tank. My last batch mixed with some dino stays clear to -2°f and have had no trouble,as long as the dino is winter blend.
I keep the truck at around 3/4 tank max, that way i can flood with dino if it gets below 0, I dont like to walk.
It is real interesting to watch the jelly jar, just a couple degrees will change it quite a bit .
Dirk
PS the previous post i was having trouble was not with the bd it was the station i fueled up at did not have winter blend in their tank... Real nice of em in december.
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
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FREE!
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Renew
Subscribe
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Subscription Status
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