cold start heater grid?

[Kirwin]

My 03 Ram's heaters also stop cycling after the engine is running a certain period of time or if vehicle speed exceeds 18 MPH if memory serves. Ken Irwin

 

[jhenderson]

Cerb makes my point perfectly. They will start fine, but emissions problems will raise their ugly head. On another note, the farm I contract to bought a New Holland tractor this fall.The engine is fully electronic. DPF and exhaust fluid treatment included.

 

[PC12Driver]

So your point is that the heater grid doesn't help the engine start?

Wanna guess what the first symptom is on a truck with a failed heater grid is?

 

[jhenderson]

It aint a hard start. You want the definition of a starting aid? Disable the heater grid on your Cummins, then start it. No problem. Now, disable the glow plugs on a Ford or GM. and try to start it. I rest my case.

 

[PC12Driver]

Actually, it is. Bunch of results from a Google search that say so. For example...

 

[rscurtis]

I'll add a little more fuel to the fire. I had a 2002 IH 4300 with the 195 HP DT 466E engine. It had no starting aids or emission controls of any kind, and was good to about +15* with two batteries. It would start with the attendant cloud of cold smoke which would last several minutes. Later trucks, 2004 on IIRC, had EGR, a catalyzed muffler, and a VN turbo, and guess what- a grid heater in the intake manifold to enable a cleaner start.

 

[cerberusiam]

Actually, it is. Bunch of results from a Google search that say so. For example...

LOL, a VP truck is poor example for starting. A 12V or CR start much better than those things ever have. Sun goes behind a cloud and they have issues.

 

[PC12Driver]

cerberusiam,

The last few posts have been a discussion about how well the Cummins engines start without a functioning grid. jhenderson stated that a hard start is not a symptom of a failed heater grid. I provided a specific example that proves that it is. If I spent a little more time sifting though the many posts that my search returned about hard starting Dodge Cummins trucks with failed heater grids, I bet I could find some that involved a VE, P, VP, or any generation of CR. They each will eventually reach a low temperature at which they will benefit from a charge air preheater.

What is worth an "LOL" (if it wasn't so distracting from the discussion at hand) are your wild generalizations that, as far as we can tell, are based on nothing. I have no idea what your hard starting VP opinion is based on. I have never heard or read anything along those lines, or as an 11-year owner of a VP-equipped truck, have experienced anything but quick starts followed by solid idles. It never missed a beat on startup, which includes a lowest-temperature start of -17*F block temp (two grid cycles). Not sure where you pulled your information from, but it clearly wasn't first-hand.

 

[jhenderson]

What about my reference to GM and Ford? Don't want to discuss it? By the way, your heater grid is covered by your emissions warranty.

 

[PC12Driver]

What's to discuss? You're right, they don't cold start anywhere as well as our "real" (undersquare, in-a-line) diesel engine. I was forced to run a Powerstroke for a couple winters, and it wouldn't start without being plugged in even with a full rack of functioning glow plugs.

I never said ours wouldn't start without the grid heater. Just that it helps (which is synonymous with aid, hence the term starting aid). However, I wouldn't want to have a Cummins at my latitude or above in wintertime without one.

I also never said it wasn't used for emissions. In fact, I think I even agreed to that statement a few posts back...?

Am I missing something?

 

[jhenderson]

I guess we've beat this topic about to death. Enough said. I enjoyed the discussion.

 

[Grinder1]

For the record my bro in law now states that his truck starts right up on cold Colorado mornings, now that he understands how to use the starting aid, imagine that. There have been a few times this winter at 0 degrees, O Dark Thirty, when he thought it wasn't going to fire up at all. Thanks for all of your input on this subject, a lively conversation for sure.

 

[PC12Driver]

Probably not the course you expected this thread to take when you asked the simple question, eh?

Glad he has things sorted out.

 

[AH64ID]

All 5.9 and 6.7 Cummins engines have grid heaters.
Trucks, heavy equipment, boats ect., it has nothing to do with emissions, it's a starting aid.

You sure are bashing people for spreading misinformation when you are the one doing it.

Per Cummins the ISB does not need any external starting aid above 10F, they classify the grid heater as an external start if aid. Not all 5.9s and 6.7s have them. There is even a part number for the spacer on the engines that don't get it.

The grid heater is functional when the motor is cold, and the intake manifold is below 66. At those warm temps it is about emissions, the colder it gets the two blend until it's 10 or colder then it's main function is a starting aid.

I suggest you do some research before opening you mouth so defensively on a topic you obviously aren't educated in.

Where is the heater in this 5.9?

 

[ronofpei]

Not all 5.9L cummins 12 valve engines have grid heaters. Check with cummins 6BTA

All 5.9 and 6.7 Cummins engines have grid heaters.
Trucks, heavy equipment, boats ect., it has nothing to do with emissions, it's a starting aid.

The cummins 6BTA did not come with an intake grid heater. If anyone knows differently, or how to install one in a 6BTA please let me know. I have in my 2001 Lamtrac SnoGroomer a (6BTA) cummins and I need a way to start it in cold weather, I don't like having to use ether, and I don't have electricity (available) to plug it in. 6(cyl)B(series)T(turbo)A(aftercooler) don't have intake grid heaters!

 

[JDinNY]

You sure are bashing people for spreading misinformation when you are the one doing it.

Per Cummins the ISB does not need any external starting aid above 10F, they classify the grid heater as an external start if aid. Not all 5.9s and 6.7s have them. There is even a part number for the spacer on the engines that don't get it.

The grid heater is functional when the motor is cold, and the intake manifold is below 66. At those warm temps it is about emissions, the colder it gets the two blend until it's 10 or colder then it's main function is a starting aid.

I suggest you do some research before opening you mouth so defensively on a topic you obviously aren't educated in.

Where is the heater in this 5.9?
View attachment 87793

I do stand corrected.
After getting a chance to talk with our Cummins rep, you are correct that the grid heaters were not supplied on all of the ISB's in equipment, it was an option, they are however standard equipment on truck engines. They were infact ordered when our equipment was spec'ed out. With that being said, he also confirmed that the grid heater is classified as a starting aid, and not related to emissions equipment.
I apologize for the mis-information.

 

[JDinNY]

The cummins 6BTA did not come with an intake grid heater. If anyone knows differently, or how to install one in a 6BTA please let me know. I have in my 2001 Lamtrac SnoGroomer a (6BTA) cummins and I need a way to start it in cold weather, I don't like having to use ether, and I don't have electricity (available) to plug it in. 6(cyl)B(series)T(turbo)A(aftercooler) don't have intake grid heaters!

Seaboard marine in Ca. had a bunch of take off air heater harnesses from Cummins marine engines.
You could probably make one of them work on your groomer. I think they were asking around 400 bucks.
Or, you could pick up the stuff from a junkyard off of a pickup and wire it up independent of the ecm.

 

[ronofpei]

I have no problem hooking it up w/o the ecm, but can i use it without eliminating(still using) the aftercooler?

 

[cerberusiam]

With that being said, he also confirmed that the grid heater is classified as a starting aid, and not related to emissions equipment.

:-laf Even with the obvious staring you in the face you are still mired in the minutiae.

Think big picture to get a better view.

1. Grid heater classified as external start aid by Cummins
2. Cummins states not needed above 10 degrees for cold start.
3. Optional equipment on the engine.
4. Standard equipment on truck engines
5. Covered by Dodge emissions warranty.

Begin to see the big picture with the bolding? Lets add one more fact to finish off the concept.

6. Average winter night time temp in the US is 28 F in the coldest month. (Note this year is one of the coldest on record and the average is still slightly above 20 F)

The actual operation of the grid heater operation pretty much confirms its intent.

Just because Cummins classes it as a starting aid does not mean that is its main use on the Ram platform. With electronics a lot more things are possible. Its operation, standard inclusion, end environment all point to the obvious, Ram uses it as an emissions device in %99.something of the cases they have designed arounf its presence. The consequences of its presence makes it an additional starting aid when the temps deviate from the norms, but, not MANDATORY as the block heater will serve the same purpose.

MANDATORY usage IS emissions reduction as Ram has designed its operation for cold combustion scenarios. Pretty sure there was more than a little collusion with Cummins on the engineering aspect as they are as responsible for emissions as Ram. Big picture, think Big Picture.

 

[JDinNY]

:-laf Even with the obvious staring you in the face you are still mired in the minutiae.

Think big picture to get a better view.

1. Grid heater classified as external start aid by Cummins
2. Cummins states not needed above 10 degrees for cold start.
3. Optional equipment on the engine.
4. Standard equipment on truck engines
5. Covered by Dodge emissions warranty.

Begin to see the big picture with the bolding? Lets add one more fact to finish off the concept.

6. Average winter night time temp in the US is 28 F in the coldest month. (Note this year is one of the coldest on record and the average is still slightly above 20 F)

The actual operation of the grid heater operation pretty much confirms its intent.

Just because Cummins classes it as a starting aid does not mean that is its main use on the Ram platform. With electronics a lot more things are possible. Its operation, standard inclusion, end environment all point to the obvious, Ram uses it as an emissions device in %99.something of the cases they have designed arounf its presence. The consequences of its presence makes it an additional starting aid when the temps deviate from the norms, but, not MANDATORY as the block heater will serve the same purpose.

MANDATORY usage IS emissions reduction as Ram has designed its operation for cold combustion scenarios. Pretty sure there was more than a little collusion with Cummins on the engineering aspect as they are as responsible for emissions as Ram. Big picture, think Big Picture.

Good lord, you're still going on. You are relentless!
I came on here to apologize for bad information and you just want to jump in my face again?
I really have no desire to argue with you any more. You believe what ever you so desire, isn't that what makes this country so great?
Do have a great night, oh, and it hasn't been above 20* here for 5 weeks until today, I've been plugging mine in, I hope that's ok.
Have a wonderful 2014