Comments on oil analysis

[Red Rocket]

Sorry, this is going to be long.



First, my sampling techniques,

on the first sample, I took the oil sample from the filter. I know, not a good idea, still learning about this.

on the second sample, I took the oil from the drain plug, by using a container to catch about a quart and a half of oil, and taking the sample from that, then dumping the rest back in.



sample results,

first sample and then second sample numbers, ex. 1, 2



dates- 2-6, 3-30

miles on oil- 5,000, 10,000

Copper- 28, 398

Iron- 50,53

Chromium- 4,4

Aluminum- 3,4

Silicon- 38,32

Lead- 4,7

Sodium3,3

Molybdenum- 2,1

Tin- 1,1

viscosity- 9. 8, 11. 0



these were only measured on the second sample

Soot, 17%

Sulfation- 459%!!!

Oxidation- 915%!!!



I need help, particularly about the sulfation and oxidation, as well as the copper.



oil is 5-30 amsoil, and used two fleetguard stratopore



truck has 16000 on it now, so had 6000, when this oil was put in.

 

[Don M]

Viscosity @ 100C?



What about the additives?



Did the lab have any comments?

Who did the analysis?



Oh, I would change the oil no matter what the lab told you at this point.



Don~

 

[LSMITH]

If it were me I would dump the oil and start again right now. It very well could be a contaminated sample, so at least re-sample and test it right away. I am not an expert, but what you have is BAD! Your silicon is pretty high too, but the wear metals are in normal ranges with the exception of copper. The copper is likely coming from the oil cooler. In my opinion you went in with the synthetic too early as well, I think you should wait until a minimum of 20K miles. You should also be getting a TBN number for your oil, that is one of the keys in dump/don't dump it.

 

[Pit Bull]

I would change it and put in Rotella 15w40 for a couple of 5,000 mile oil changes and let your engine break in, before you go back to synthetic. Then I would use a 15w40 synthetic, if you still want to use synthetic.

 

[Red Rocket]

I had the samples done at Ziegler Caterpillar, they do all the local oil analysis, the cummins shop told me that is where they go too. Either way, I am going to dump this oil, but I need to know why this happens, and what causes this oxidation and sulfation. My analysis has no spot for the TBN, and if anyone knows why let me know. I want to get as much info on all of this as possible, and my oil will be changed back to rotella 1540 tomorrow, and after two oil changes at 5000 each, back to amsoil 1540, not 530. I don't know if that oil makes a difference in what i see here, but im not taking the chance.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by RedRocket

I had the samples done at Ziegler Caterpillar, they do all the local oil analysis, the cummins shop told me that is where they go too. Either way, I am going to dump this oil, but I need to know why this happens, and what causes this oxidation and sulfation. My analysis has no spot for the TBN, and if anyone knows why let me know. I want to get as much info on all of this as possible, and my oil will be changed back to rotella 1540 tomorrow, and after two oil changes at 5000 each, back to amsoil 1540, not 530. I don't know if that oil makes a difference in what i see here, but im not taking the chance.

Sounds like a good plan. Should be broke in by then. I guess I'm old fashion, like changing the oil every 4 to 5K miles and using the heavier weight oil that Dodge/Cummins recommends. I think Amsoil is a good oil just need the engine broke in before you use it.

 

[Don M]

Actually the oil has done a great job of protecting your internal parts with the info you have given except the copper levels. I just saw another analysis last week with high copper and same oil brand and viscosity was used. The TBN must be way low given the sulfation and nitration of the sample.



Looking at the soot levels of 17% tells me you got a problem. With the sulfation and nitration being were they are along with the soot levels so high, I would suggest that you check the EGR system if equiped for proper operation or sticking piston rings allowing blow-by products such as soot and other combustion by-products to enter the oil.





I would not run any oil for 5000 miles in this engine until you figure out what is going on here. Have it checked out.



Since the oil is so acidic at this point, the copper is more than likely from the leaching of the oil cooler.



Don~

 

[JJW_ND]

Make sure the Cat lab is setup to do synthetic fluids. The Cat Lab here is not that is why I switched to CTC http://www.ctclink.com . They are not affiliated with any oil company. They provide a full complement of tests at a reasonable price.



If your lab does soot like the one here it is not in Percent. It is some funky Caterpiller scale. They can put in perspective but it does not compare values reported in % soot from other labs.



jjw

ND

 

[Red Rocket]

As you can imagine, this has been bothering me since i got the results, and I just remembered that I had taken my truck to cummins for a stuck valve and bent pushrod, due to dodge's malfunctioning cold weather system. I sent in my first sample right before this, so this would have been at the beginning of the second sample. Could this explain some of these findings, could the stuck valve have contributed to the sulfation and oxidation? Any comments are appreciated.

 

[Don M]

Yes, of course that was probably it. Stuck valves will mess the valve timing all up and add all kinds of crap to the engine crankcase. I would still check the oil again and drain it frequently.



Don~

 

[Red Rocket]

Thanks everyone, Thats a load off of my mind. That crap will be dumped tonight, and back to a load of rotella for awhile. Ill post a follow up with my next sample on this thread.



Thanks,

RedRocket

Nick

 

[gmorrison]

From a lube engineer's standpoint there is no problem switching to synthetic engine oil at any time/mileage in diesel engines. Corvettes, Ford Mustang SVT's, Porsche's,etc. all leave the factory with Mobil 1 in their crankcase. Same with large diesel engines leaving CAT, Cummins, etc. destined for arctic duty: right from the factory with absolutely no 'break in' problems, etc. However, I highly recommend a true 40 weight synthetic such as Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40. There is no subtitution for film thickness: this engine *needs* a 40W at operational temperatures!



Moreover, with the bent pushrod history, this engine has potential bearing problems/damage. However, dirt levels are much elevated also so we have two potential causes for the high copper/bearing wear/bearing damage. Single digit dirt (silicon) is our target for induction cleanliness (I hope you are not running a K&N). If single digit silicon is achieved on subsequent oil analysis results then bearing damage, high bearing wear rates are probable. To verify the copper source, a more sophisticated analysis should be done to confirm the copper source called Ferrography. Not cheap but well worth the money as it will give an actual photograph of the wear metal and a good idea of its source. I can direct you to the lab for that service which costs in the neighborhood of $75, but well worth it if necessary.

Regarding the mineral based oil. I highly recommend Delvac 1300S 15W-40 as it is vastly superior to the Shell Rotella T in every measurable parameter and roughly the same price. Higher TBN, lower pour point, higher VI, higher anti-wear/detergency. .



Also, the oil sampling procedure is critical. It must be taken warm and 'mid stream' as it runs from the crankcase. Not from a secondary container. Just remove the drain plug and let a quart or two come out then put the bottle in the stream. Keep the sample bottle top on the bottle until the last minute. One speck of dirt can alter our results!

George Morrison, STLE CLS

 

[Sled Puller]

gmorrison,



Where have you been?



Excellent post!



I wish the search engine worked, there is threads from 3 years ago that could stand your opinion.



Stick around, please!

 

[amsoilman]

I have extracted oil for hundreds of oil analysis, and I would never ever take a sample from the oil drain plug! Get a small pump or a syringe using a plastic tube and remove a sample from the oil dip stick tube. When you take a sample from the oil drain plug, there are too many chances of getting a contaminated sample. Also only take a sample when the engine oil is at operating temps.



Wayne

 

[gmorrison]

The use of a 'thief'(vacuum pump extraction) is an excellent way to capture an oil sample although still subject to potential contamination if precautions are not taken. Again, warm/hot engine oil and a triple dump. i. e. pull a sample, dump the bottle, pull another, dump, then retain the third sample.

From a lube engineer's perspective, sump samples taken at oil changes yield excellent results as long as good procedure is used. I review hundreds of sump/oil change samples a week and rarely have a bad sample; proper procedures ensure a good results.

Both sampling procedures yield representative samples if proper procedures are used.

George Morrison, STLE CLS