Competition Common Rail, With A P-pump, , The Last Hurrah For Mechanical Injection ?

[COMP461]

OK with the advent of advanced electronic injection systems, and in anticipation of have the system in the next 6 months tested and racing, I have combined a common rail block and head to the P-Pump facilitate a smooth change over to the new system. The advantages are weight, structural integrity, and better coolant control

 

[Timbeaux38]

Trying out the EDGE setup? :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf

 

[ob1kobi]

Are you wanting to discuss the pros and cons of mechanical injection vs electronic injection, or are you just giving us an update on what your doing?

 

[Timbeaux38]

Aww, come on Ted, you know that you sit riveted to your seat waiting on the next big announcement to come from that Camp... . :-laf :-laf :-laf

 

[ob1kobi]

:-laf



Just trying to see what the purpose was, before this thread goes in the toilet.



Personally I would like to see what people think the pros and cons are for each, I just don't think it will stay civil long enough for it to happen. I am an electronic guy myself but I think all the current big dogs, except for Dennis, are mechanical. Not positive about the sledpullers though.

 

[Turbo Thom]

When , I don't know, but the mechanical pump will reach it's limit. There is just so much it can do. How that is reached, I really don't have a clue. Just remember the 24 valve and common rail date back a ways to the old big rigs. . They just got to us, but are not new. The big thing I feel we are going to have address is the smoke factor. We are going down a track with a runaway train toward a river with no bridge. We are going to have to clean it up or go into the water we go. Will the electronics help toward tis end? I don't know, but spray will. God forbid, I didn't say that. It's this computer. I gotta get it looked at. :-{}



Later... ... ... ... ..... Just my feelings.



. . Preston. .







. . Preston. .

 

[ob1kobi]

but spray will

Just had to make sure I got that right. Don't know if I have ever heard that word come out of any of you Georgia boy's. :-laf

 

[HOSS]

We are going to have to clean it up or go into the water we go. Will the electronics help toward tis end? I don't know, but spray will. I gotta get it looked at. :-{}



Later... ... ... ... ..... Just my feelings.



. . Preston. .

Now your talking Preston!!!!!!

 

[DavidTD]

Just had to make sure I got that right. Don't know if I have ever heard that word come out of any of you Georgia boy's. :-laf

Ted, we've been spraying for years... I just think we were told wrong. Spraying into the exhaust doesn't do a darn thing.

 

[COMP461]

The edge truck has a 12 valve, the motor is one of there old DD motors with some really good turbo’s, and Ross pistons done by Gale Banks There was really nothing trick about it. They did not put it on a CR block, any one that looked under it could tell

I thought I would discuss the merits of this block and some older technology, but some people that know everything, but still have as of yet to put any stellar performances on the score boards want to start attacking any notion that I might have something to offer the other members , and that any one besides themselves are capable of enlighten the masses . The members may or may not ever get to take diesel to the extreme that I have, but they enjoy reading about it, so it you ant got any thing to add positive, shut up. I get at least 3 to 5 pm a week, urging me to ignore the jealous people that want attention with out earning it thru some sort of performance on the track.



The method of mounting the stock front cover to the block and the requires custom oil pan , and clearancing of the block for the pump is not for beginners , but the better block is worth it . I have built the oil pan any way as I am running a 4 stage dry sump pun on my new motor anyway. I considered building a new front cover, and might still, its just that this is just a stop gap until I go to a CR injection system.



The advantage of the CR are apparent , and the motors ability with the computer I will be using is unlimited , in that you can have any timing curve and any variable advances for the acceleration rate of the motor. The CR will be able to start and run on almost no timing to aid in low compression, and then crank 50 plus degrees at the 5000 to 6000 RPM range

 

[lmills]

you can have any timing curve and any variable advances for the acceleration rate of the motor. The CR will be able to start and run on almost no timing to aid in low compression, and then crank 50 plus degrees at the 5000 to 6000 RPM range

THAT DOES SOUND SWEEET!

 

[csevers]

Stronger block? I think that they (Cummins) cheapened up the block a lot so much so that they put a girdle in to make up for all the cast no longer in the block. I have only seen one cr bottom end, are they doing this on all the new engines??



Craig

 

[COMP461]

you can ask Scott , cummins never makes a part to be cheeper , it is much better enginered

 

[Turbo Thom]

Greg... ... I agree. Just keep doing what you're doing. Everybody will just have to watch.



. . Preston. .

 

[fest3er]

:-laf



Just trying to see what the purpose was, before this thread goes in the toilet.



Personally I would like to see what people think the pros and cons are for each, I just don't think it will stay civil long enough for it to happen. I am an electronic guy myself but I think all the current big dogs, except for Dennis, are mechanical. Not positive about the sledpullers though.

The big con is the P pump doesn't generate enough injection pressure (using one 'piston' to compress the fuel; I'm pondering a way to use two at once to generate greater pressure). The higher the pressure, the better the fuel atomization will be, and higher injection pressure results in better, more complete, combustion, because more of the fuel is exposed to evaporate and burn.



Unless you want to convert to a Denso pump (that has significantly higher injection pressure), you're better off going to common rail technology and working toward the greatest injection pressures you can achieve (30K-40K PSI comes to mind). Combine such high pressure with a good electronic injection control system (that enables nearly infinitely adjustable injection timing), and you'll have plenty of power. And when you run out of power improvements, you design a custom, high-flow head with solenoid-controlled valves to allow nearly infinitely-adjustable valve timing. CR injection and solenoid-controlled valves will allow operation into much higher RPMs.



When *that* all runs out, you'll likely start mixing 5% racing gas with your #2, because diesel fuel can't burn fast enough to be effective at 8K RPM. Just wait 'til you have a light-weight V8 or TDI running at 10K-12K RPM.



The technology to get high-RPM torque from a CI engine exists or can be made today. It just requires thinking far enough outside 'the box' to figure out what's needed to make it work.



And don't be surprised if you see synthetic #2 (made from natural gas) appear in quantity in a couple years. Biodiesel is good, but it contains too much nitrogen to emit sufficiently low amounts of NOx. But then, who knows; maybe in 20 years geneticists will have designed rapeseed, soy, and other oil plants that will produce low-nitrogen oil.



Oh, the top sled pullers are typically mechanically injected. Today.



N

 

[jwilliams3]

The CR block is stronger from a structural integrity stand point, weighing in around 50lbs (give or take) more than an older ISB block.

The block girdle just makes it even more superior, like icing on the cake.

 

[COMP461]

In reality the common rail block is 65 lbs lighter then the old ISB block , the girdle is 17 lbs , an water jetted aluminum one will weight around 3 , for a total weight savings on or around 80 lbs , with a lighten program done by one of the pro stock skunk works for Cummins , for a navy boat program there is another 35 lbs to be had for a pricey $2500 . This expensive diet program is going to be the key to get a truck in the 7’s and a dragster in the 6 second range.



The flame front propagation speed of diesel is about 30% slower in normal low pressure diesel application , the reason given in that SAE paper , was that the mixture was not nearly as homogenized as greatly as gasoline, this is one of the reason any added fuel in a diesel , such as propane or methanol, makes so much power , when it seems you already have an excess of fuel loads. The propane or methanol acts as and accelerant , speeding up flame front speed , and thereby burning more of the fuel. The higher fuel pressure will facilitate faster flame front speed and will certainly lend itself to an increase in RPM potential, this will greatly raise the power potential of the racing diesel.

 

[Sled Puller]

Under 800 HP, the sledpullers are virtually dead even electric vs mechanical.



Above 800 HP, no contest. Mechanical. Like Fes said. . today.

 

[Tomeygun]

Under 800 HP, the sledpullers are virtually dead even electric vs mechanical.



Above 800 HP, no contest. Mechanical. Like Fes said. . today.

I was just talking today about the CR motors ability with the infinite programing options...



Does the CP3 operate on the same guidlines of the P7100, as in, the faster you spin it, The more fuel delivery ability is has??



SOOOO, if we could spin a CR motor to 4500 rpms, could we finally keep the rail pressure from falling????



I cant wait till the CR motors are as well known as the 94-2002 motors

 

[COMP461]

The CR CP3 pump has some possibilities , and with a little work it will spin up to 5500 to 6000 RPM’s , and this ability is necessary in the progression of the diesel engine . the trick is to under drive the CP3 pump, as it becomes unstable at around 4800 . . I have played with a Jessel belt drive as a ideal. And that might work.

The CR will be the hp king in a very short period of time. It may never make the power down low that a pulling motor can by drenching the chamber with excessive amounts of fuel, but that kind of fueling doesn’t work in a drag racing motor anyway. The low and mostly negative rev-gain is the only way to make that kind of power in a pulling motor. The same motors loose a significant amount of power at 1000 RPM’s per second acceleration rate.

The secret to a electronic diesel ability to become a stellar performer in drag racing will to have the right amount of timing for the RPM and the acceleration rate. The amount of timing it takes to rev a diesel to 6000 RPM and have it accelerate to that level with good average sweep power is maybe 55 to 60 degrees of timing. I don’t believe that they make ether strong enough to start a P-Pump with a big cam 13. 5 to 1 compression , and 60 degrees of lead. But that same motor would run incredible with that lead up at a high RPM.