Concealed carry situation--What would you do?

[staarma]

This doesn't really have anything to do with concealed carry. You are at your house and you would be concealing nothing. First I would send the wife and boys out the back as she was dialing 911. I would be reaching for the fire extinguisher because as you say in your scenario, the rag is lit so you don't have much time but to try to minimize the damage to your dwelling and family. Now, provided with a little time, then I would be reaching for the Winchester Defender alternately loaded with 00 buck and 500 grain slugs to take to the party out front. You would not want to use anything but short range because if there are witnesses then you would most likely have neighbors and you don't want to be using them or their property for backstops. He needs at least two stern warnings that Ralph doesn't live here and if he continues to threaten then any force necessary will be used and that 911 has been called. The rest will play out by instinct at that point. The main thing is you wuld have the police on the phone as witness to your reasonability. With all that being said, no one in MT would bring a molitave cocktail to a gun fight anyhow. Everyone knows that all people in MT have guns and usually lots of them in their vehicles, houses, etc. :-laf

 

[2broke2smoke]

is your state a "castle doctrine" state ?



when we took our cc class we were told to remember the acronym M. O. M.



if someone has;



the Means



the Oppurtunity



a Manifest of intent (i'm gonna kill you ... your family)



then and only then can you give him what he deserves ...



in WV the castle doctrine has passed the senate and they expect it to pass the house with flying colors ... keepin' my fingers crossed



and yes i would have shot the retard anyway because i would rather be in jail with the threat eliminated from my family ...

 

[jwilliams3]

I recently attended a CCW class given by a small town cop. Good class that made you think about what to do or not to do in certain situations,Here is an example

Some nut-case you do not know is standing in front of your house. He is screaming threats to Ralph [no-one named Ralph lives here], and is about to throw a flaming bottle at your picture window. We

will assume this bottle is the only bottle in his possession that you can see. Your family is inside,and there are witnesses outside across the street. First variation is there are no witnesses,second variation is the nut-case has just thrown the bottle,and your house is on fire,and third variation is thrown bottle and no witnesses.

You have a loaded . 357 in your hand. Briefly describe a course of action that you might take to defend your family,according to the laws of the State of Ohio.

Have fun!!

All three are a no shoot situation.

 

[daveshoe]

Clarifying the original post

First of all,I merely mentioned that I attended a concealed carry class. The case above has nothing to do with whether or not you[the homeowner ]has or does not have a license to carry concealed. Secondly,Ohio law requires that you have a duty to retreat--we do not have a castle doctrine or a ''make my day '' provision as of yet. Obviously the citizens have the right to use deadly force in some situations; otherwise we would have no CCW law or 'right of the people'--second ammendment paralell law in our state constitution. In fact ,Ohioans for Concealed Carry, use open carry safety walks to get the concealed carry law passed. Phase one was the safety walk --sort of a parade without a parade permit. Phase two--the act of ordinary people carrying openly that was sure to elicit ''man with a gun'' calls to police was not needed to get the legislation passed.

This is a good discussion,and I will reveal what our instructor told us when I have the time to properly explain the details. . Thanks,guys.

 

[CRuth]

Thats an interesting scenario. Living in CA I'd be worried about this one. He's outside. Imminent threat? Before he throws it? I think so but whats the law going to think. What if the wacko only had a lit rag in bottle of water?

I can't say for sure, I might think differently if I was actually confronted with it, but I think I'd let him throw it. As a former firefighter I"m well equipped to deal with the consequences of a molotov cocktail (must be at least dozen extinguishers in my house).

I'm armed and prepared to kill someone in self defense, but I want to be damn sure my life is really in danger before I do. I'm not sure I"m prepared to deal with the legal and emotional consequences if I had any doubt in my mind I had to pull the trigger. I've changed my attitudes on this too as I've aged. Was a time I thought I'd kill if I caught someone trying to steal truck. No longer. Not over property.

Let me add though, if YOU take out a person like this, and they prosecuted you? Lets just say the prosecutor wouldn't want me on the jury.

Criminals better be very aware they chose a dangerous occupation. I won't shed a tear for a dead criminal.

 

[Cummins Pilot]

A situation I hope I never have to go thru. While I would love to just drop the idiot on my lawn I would call the police, tell the guy I would use deadly force. Attempt to hold him down at gun point until police arrived. If he threw the bottle I would use deadly force.



Alaska does not have the "castle" law. We have the "run away scared" law which I despise. Where I live it can easily hit -50f or worse. Having your house burn or running away is a lethal problem. Many many places in AK are remote. Many people can't see the next house over so witnesses are not likely. Sure is a lot of land in AK where people don't go.



Fow what its worth I'd rather have doubt in my mind that maybe I killed a guy for nothing rather than have someone hurt or killed due to my inaction. If I'm alive I can fight to get out of jail. Pretty sure I can't fight my way out of a coffin.

 

[Alan Reagan]

In Georgia, we have the inherent right to self defense. He's threatening my life and my home. He's going to need medical attention or a coroner. I don't believe in warning shots and I would not shoot to disable. I would shoot him and let a jury decide my fate if there is a prosecutor here dumb enough to take it to trial.

 

[daveshoe]

What the instructor said

Fact one is your family is inside,you are outside,and you cannot predict if the thrown Molotov will be kill anyone,[as soon as you are outside the house,you do not know where the people inside the house will move to once you exit]but the ''potential for great bodily harm''limit is easily reached. The instructor stated that he would shoot the nutcase. Fact two is witnesses have no bearing on the legality of the case--but you should comport yourself as if witnesses are present. Under condidions of high stress,humans exhibit tunnel vision anyway. The home defender should think about this and the possibility of unintended targets being shot.

Fact three is that once the Molotov is thrown,and he immediately does not have another,shooting this creep could be interpreted as retaliation against a property crime--a no shoot situation in Ohio. If your purpose was using your firearm to protect your FAMILY, can you imagine how difficult it would be to justify ventilating the bad guy's ribcage when you should be conducting an orderly,armed retreat of the premesis?

Fact four is that you WILL be taken into custody,good shoot or not. It would be my advice that you have a good attorney ready to help you . Also help yourself by not being proud of ridding the world of one less arsonist/murderer,or whatever. Once the words have left your lips,they as well as bullets,cannot be called back. Get a Lawyer.

Even after being this cautious with his words,the instructor warned us that none of this stuff was legal advice and that only an attorney could give legal advice. I will also state that these statements were not those of myself,but the statements of my instructor,to the best of my understanding.

Makes 'ya stop and think.

 

[bighammer]

Sorry Ralph, you got to MOVE!

 

[TSpecht]

I think I would hand the firearm off to someone else in favor of a pellet gun, if it's a glass bottle. Let this idiot wear the flammable liquid he appears intent to throw at my house.

The way the law *should* be, is you should have every right to drop him where he stands in defense of you, your family, *and* your stuff.

Many states have idiotic laws that prevent this, however, so I guess in Ohio, I'd probably just tell him "Go away, or I shall be forced to tell you to go away in a more aggrivated manner... " If that failed to work, I'd call the fire department and police, because my house would be on fire, and I'd want the idiot arrested for the crime of arson, trespassing, and virtually everything else they can scrape up, including disorderly conduct, assault with a dangerous weapon, threatening harm, and any number of other things.

It would be way more fun with the pellet gun shattering the bottle of flammable stuff all over him. Criminals are lucky I am not writing the laws, because there would be a legal requirement for the homeowner to shoot the SOB multiple times.

 

[6BT-Dakota]

In PA. we have a Concealed weapons permit give out by the county courthouse (of course their is a fee). The problem that I find with this is that the people consider the permit their right to carry a firearm as far as I am cocerned, carrying a firearm concealed is a privlage not a right. With all of that being said I firmly believe that if I feel someone is threatening my life and I feel my life is in danger, not only will I shoot but I will shoot to kill not to wound or stop. I heard a old saying one time from a person that killed someone in self defense and went thru all of the B. S. . He told me "I would rather be tried by 12 then carried by 6"



Just my opinion:



Rob

 

[kelly4463]

In PA. the permint fee is $ 49. 00 ,it is a privlage to carry !!

If my life is in danger i will also shoot to kill not wound !!

 

[6BT-Dakota]

I think i would remember paying $49. 00. I dont think it is that much up here. It must vary County by County.



Rob

 

[The patriot]

I payed $19. 00 for my Pa permit. Got it in Centre cty a few years back.

I believe it's a right. Just like free speech.

I might add I dont feel "right" about paying to exercise a right..... :-{}

 

[kelly4463]

The new permit looks like a drivers license it has your pic on it and it is laminated...

I also feel you shouldn't have to pay for your right to carry !!!!

 

[Schlickenmeyer]

I would mention to certain folks, that one should not type willy-nilly.

If you say for example "I will shoot to kill not to stop" you have just admitted

you will go beyond the law and in many states this sentence will take you from self defense to murder. This is not legal advice, but the advice of someone who teaches the law on this. Ask a lawyer before making decisions or statements like this. I am not kidding, between criminal and civil problems, and the infinite retention of the web, you think the prosecuting atty will not find this post if you

defend yourself and they dig through your life with search engines?

Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to help.

 

[CRuth]

And I would imagine many of the laws were written, not to keep you from exercising self defense, but to avoid situations where someone is murdered and self defense is claimed.

 

[barbwire]

The problem that I find with this is that the people consider the permit their right to carry a firearm as far as I am cocerned, carrying a firearm concealed is a privlage not a right.

Just my opinion:



Rob

Everyone is guarenteed the "right" to their own opinion" by the "constitution". If you exercise that "right", then you probably "believe" in the constitution.

If I am not mistaken, I "believe" the constitution also states that we have a "right to bear arms". Or can we just pick and choose which ever part of the constitution that fits our particular needs at any particular time?????

I guess that the supreme court justices do just that. But then that seems to be the way of modern government. They just don't seem to learn from history.

Flame starts now!

 

[6BT-Dakota]

Yes, but its one of the few rights that can be taken away very quickly. Example: You (not you in perticular) have a screaming fight with your wife and you tell her that your leaving her for some other woman, she being in a rage to get back at you calls the cops and tells them that you threatened her life even though you did no such thing. (this of course is totally fictional a woman would never do this in a fit of rage) The police in turn come to your house and make you leave but because you "threatened your wife" they take all of your guns and you never have the RIGHT to own or carry a gun again. Honestly, I think that people who own and carry a weapon have to realize that their privlage to own or carry can be taken away at the blink of an eye for something they didnt even do. Now im also a believer in the fact that we dont need new gun laws we need to inforce the ones we have.

 

[daveshoe]

I would mention to certain folks, that one should not type willy-nilly.

If you say for example "I will shoot to kill not to stop" you have just admitted

you will go beyond the law and in many states this sentence will take you from self defense to murder. This is not legal advice, but the advice of someone who teaches the law on this. Ask a lawyer before making decisions or statements like this. I am not kidding, between criminal and civil problems, and the infinite retention of the web, you think the prosecuting atty will not find this post if you

defend yourself and they dig through your life with search engines?

Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to help.

I agree,and I am thankful that we had a thoughtful instructor. One guy in the class stated how he kept his prize Camaro in the barn,and would ''make 'em pay '' if he caught them trying to steal it. The instructor went through all the legal costs associated with a questionable shoot,the probable economic losses of job opportunities,freinds that shy away from you, and other related issues. The conservative calculation was 50 grand to protect a 15 thousand dollar car.

He also pointed out that once you go outside to catch a thief,you expose yourself to not knowing how many partners the thief has with him,if they are armed,and where they may be hiding--a situation in which you will never find a police officer without back-up.

It is easy to play that little movie in your head about how you are a hero for shooting a bad guy, but you focus has to be on evaluating the threat,warning the threat that he has to drop his weapon,and stopping the threat if he continues to threaten your in a manner that causes immediate lethal danger. Again,this is not legal advice,just my understanding of what my instructor stated.