Congress increases its pay despite recession

[Lhotka]

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20011225_60.html



Does a $50,000. 00 wage increase over ten years seem high to you?

 

[Shovelhead]

Congress doesn't increase it's own pay.



Due to legislation they passed a few years ago, the increase is AUTOMATIC, because of the uproar over them voting to hike their pay.



Now they must pass a vote to NOT increase their pay.



I guess they're too busy with other important matters (like chasing interns) to have that one come up for a vote.

 

[Scollins]

This pay increase only represents a 3. 38% increase for 2002. If you got that kind of raise at work, would you be happy, mad or indifferent? I would be MAD! Yes, these pay raises are automatic, but so are a lot of raises for union employees across the country. There are a lot of instances in industry where people receive raises for no good reason (another year has passed, here is a raise!) They call it "cost of living adjustments. " Yeah, whatever. And people wonder why Boeing is considering out sourcing some manufacturing to other countries. But, I digress... .....



Now, I think that the people serving in Congress can seem to be overpaid, given all the "perks" they receive. Lots of wining and dining, fund raising, free travel, etc. But, I'm more upset about their retirement plan than their pay raises. I've got a long way to go before I retire, and I'm certain that all the money I pay into Social Security will be gone by then. Maybe I should run for Congress, and get in on the good life (pay raises, good retirement, interns!)

 

[illflem]

Scott, the only problem is that you have to be rich to run and even richer to win.

 

[Lhotka]

That's it illflem. Most of these guys are already wealthy. We are in a recession, people are losing jobs, but these guys are using what little budget surplus remains to pad their pockets. They can't live on $145,000. 00 a year? They need an additional $5,000. 00?

 

[The patriot]

Scollins, how bout I take their 3% and they could have my 3-6%?

Eric

 

[Scollins]

Originally posted by The patriot

Scollins, how bout I take their 3% and they could have my 3-6%?

Eric

You mean, 3% of THEIR salary, versus your 3-6% of YOUR SALARY, right? Sure, if that is more money for you. It wouldn't be more for me (assumption here, as I don't know what my raise for next year will be yet. ) But, based on past raises, I'm expecting around 8-10%.



Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending them at all, just pointing out the percentage. As was pointed out, you have to already be rich to run for office (I'm not) and you get more rich while in office. You spend 6 years as a Senator, get the cushy retirement package, and write books for billions of dollars or go on motivational speaking tours. As these guys and gals are rich already (I've got Maria Cant(do)well representing me) they should take pay cuts. The more money they have, the less they should get paid. Maria Cant(do)well ran on a platform of "using only MY own money" so she wasn't beholden to any PAC, group or lobby. Well, when Real Networks hit rock bottom, so did her wealth. Now she is out working the donation and hand out circuit with her new best friend, Hillary Clinton! Now, she is seeking money from those groups that she said didn't want money from! I think their salary should be reduced by the amount of funds they collect for their re-election. Yeah, like that's going to happen... .



I would prefer that they spent this extra money on the members of the Armed Forces. How much does a Private or Sargeant in the Army make? I don't think they make enough money to be above the poverty level! THAT is bull shrimp.

 

[Champane Flight]

Lots of

Lots of difference between Congress and Union. First of all in the last 15 years of contract I have never seen more than 3. 5% cost of living increase. Another thing,the Union members have to negoiate and sometimes strike to get the contract(sweat bullets,cause nobody wants a strike). Congress just votes it in(and conviently forgets to vote it out). Maybe we should all make minimum wage,do away with the upper poverty levels that Union jobs provide.



We need a freudal system again,just two classes of people Very Rich and Very Poor... ... ... . Yes Boss,you da best Boss.....

 

[Power Wagon]

Lotsa differences between the Union and Congress. Congress is supposed to enforce the law, the Unions exist to organize crime.



Oregon Health Sciences University Hospital is having a nursing strike. ONA (nurses union) talked slightly over a majority of nurses into voting for a strike. They presently have wage scale that runs 22 to 28 or so per hour, plus benefits. They are demanding 30% over the next 2 years. However, they are probably the best paid in Oregon now, a full $10 / hr over the same position's pay in my area.



Anyway, my wife is working over there intermittently to help cover positions during the strike. I hope they just fire the lot and bust the union. Wage increases during a recession well into double digits is obscene... especially when you're already the highest paid. Frankly, they are gangsters... organized and legal crime.

 

[Shovelhead]

We've got the best politicians that money can buy.



As for unions, I'm a proud member of local 2336 Communications Workers of America, and an "associate" of Verizon (the largest of the "Baby Bells"). Profits in the BILLIONS of $$$ per year.

I've been through 4 strikes in my 20 years.

When contract time comes around, and all the Big Dogs receive their $$$$ bonuses then tell the workers that we have to pay more for our healthcare insurance, and have to increase hours and cut pay, and they wanted to lay off 3,000 workers in our area so they can move the office to get a cheaper labor pool... ... ... ... ..... we strike for OUR RIGHTS.



I'd LOVE to be able to set my own pay scale.



Now pulling on my Asbestos suit.....

 

[Champane Flight]

Shame

PW,I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would begrudge a nurse a little higher standard of living. They ARE the backbone of medicine and deserve any raise they can get!The doctors are making 6 digit pay. The hospital administrators are making 6 didgit pay. And the nurses?They are doing the majority of the work and getting half the wages.



It is about time they organized. The nurses in our area are making about 12. 00 an hour and getting no OT,even if they work it. While the fat cat administrator is making 6 didgits and double charging all its patrons for Tylenol!!!!!



As far as organized crime,there are times I would like to see organized crime back in the game. Good negotiators... . Hard for a CEO to say no when Queido has his arm behind his back.....



The majority of strikes and negotiations are settled for far less than what is asked. You always ask for more than you can get,never get it. Of course the news media would state the wages of the nurses now and the ludicrist first offer. That way they can turn every minimum wage person against the union. After all,their people will be negoiating soon to.



A strike is a no win situation. I like the idea of a stay in. Just stay at work and call the news agencys. You are doing your job and the boss looks like an idiot for throwing you out.

 

[Power Wagon]

"a little higher standard of living"???



I'm not sure what planet you live on... but this is a RESEARCH hospital. Every raise balloons the price of RESEARCH. What, you think money grows on trees? If they were to get what they wanted, it means hourly wages in excess of 35 an hour.



The union struck here, because this is the highest paid, highest staffed, and most well equipped, with the best working conditions, because this is THE place in Oregon you go for your last-ditch effort at lifesaving. Striking here means people could easily die who would not otherwise. They have broken up specialized surgical teams and idled otherwise life-saving wards - including the highest rated ER in the state.



Yeah, I get it. "Pay us or your patient dies". Uh huh. That's organized crime. With a full hospital... a place that's the "last resort", the highest level of care in the state, the nurses walked out, refusing to give care to patients WHO WERE THERE... And then made threats to those who came to give care when they would not. You see this in movies about some apocalypse, about sadistic killers, NOT as something legal and cheered by the public.



If they get what they want... They fully intend to walk out in all the other hospitals in the city... probably all at once... And demand the same as they get at OHSU. I just hope you're in the area and are suffering a life threatening situation when that happens. Then you'll see the TRUE nature of labor unions.



Licensed nurses take an oath that says they will, without regard to any other factor, to care for, to save lives, to treat without discrimination, to the best of their ability. Failure to do so will result in your license being pulled, and can result in prosecution criminally. Unless, of course, your union asks for it. In which case, you can let people die and there are no consequences.



When my wife worked for one of the local hospitals a few years ago, the ONA took a chunk of her paycheck every time... And she could NOT refuse. "Pay us, or you don't work". Yup, organized CRIME. If it weren't a union, they would prosecute you for a crime... But since it's a union, you cheer it. And you say SHAME on me? And cheer the violent greedy thugs?



Further, the ONA spent massively on political efforts, EVERY ONE OF WHICH WE DISAGREED WITH. So, as you see, I SERIOUSLY hope the union gets broken... Frankly, the hospital can fire the lot... and I hope they do. If they do, the new hires get what would have been anyway... 6%. The hospital offered 16% over two years and was turned down... The union people repeatedly say... It's 30% - and we will NOT negotiate.

 

[Scollins]

I was part of union for 7 years, and I absolutely hated it during the last 5 years. Why? Well, a union is a collective of workers, some good, some bad, some average. There is usually not any type of merit or performance based pay raises for union workers. So, the average worker gets what he deserves, the bad worker gets way more than deserved, and the good worker gets screwed.



I was one of the "good" workers. I was typically at the top of the productivity list, worked very hard and did whatever I could to make sure the store would succeed. Why? Without a successful store, I had no place to work. So, I'm busting my butt working hard, and I'm getting paid exactly the same as the POS at the bottom of the productivity list!!! What is up with that?????? You couldn't fire these worthless people either, or they would run to the union office and cry discrimination.



I worked with friends who were like me, but eventually they turned into average workers, then bad workers. Why? "Why should I bust my butt to succeed when I only have to work as hard as the person at the bottom of the list?" What drives someone to succeed in a union? NOTHING. So, if you are an average worker, the union is neither here nor there. If you are a bad worker, the union is the best thing that ever happened to you. If you are a good worker, the union is holding you down, oppressing you. I got out, and now I'm starting to earn a salary commensurate with my skill and value to the company. Oh yeah, I still work for the same company... ... .



And the comment about the top executives making huge salaries? Well, their responsibility level is WAY higher than the "line worker. " The line worker thinks they do all the work to make the company success, and that is partly true. But, get ONE bad, ineffective CEO, and the company go under in a hurry. How many times has one bad line worker caused a company to go out of business? So, the CEO has the future of the company, and all of the people working for it, on his or hers shoulders. Shouldn't that equate to higher compensation? I think so... .....

 

[Lhotka]

Scollins,



A CEO should obviously be compensated for their higher level of responsibility. But in relationship to how the industry is doing.



Should a Airline CEO receive a bonus (or deferred bonus) after the company accepted a taxpayer bailout? How about the workers that were laid off?



Also, can someone define "free enterprize" as it relates to market forces?

 

[Shrimpy]

Agree to a point

Scollins, I agree completely with you down to the last paragraph. If you think a CEO has that much sway over your average company (Fortune 250) you are sorely (sp) mistaken.



Do you honestly believe that the CEO makes decisions all by his lonesome????? He has consultations, meetings, advisories, more meetings, and more meetings before he makes ANY large decision. And you can bet your sweet a$$ he will have some type of "cover" if things go wrong. That "cover" is most likely a person who has weighted his career on being the CEO's "cover". Most are handsomely rewarded but run the risk of career meltdown if they are called on to be the "fall boy". It is a calculated risk.



It's all about impressions. They have to give the impression to the outside that they are in total control. Look no further than ENRON. Folks in Houston believed they were indestructable and made money simply by being in business. Anytime a financial person openly questioned their business practices (accounting) they were treated like lepers. The Wall Street Journal was full of stories about how Enron would bad mouth and harrass analyst who tried to question their business practices. Yet Ken Lay was paid over 130 MILLION for the year 2000 in CASH compensation!!!! For what????? lying to people. He (Lay) and every board member should be sitting in prison breaking rocks right now. As a board member it is their responsibility to not just rubber stamp things brought before them, but to question it until they understand it. Remember Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. If they didn't understand the business practices they should not have been on the Board. Which leads me to say that just because a person is a suite and tye type does NOT make them smart.





I have more admiration for small business owners (less than 200 employees) than any Fortune 100 CEO. The small business CEO is under much more stress and strain to produce than the big CEO's who have to deal with unions. If Enron can pay Ken Lay 130 MILLION in cash compensation, they can afford to pay the rank and file a decent wage. How they choose to disperse it (rank and grade the employees work) is up to the company. I don't believe that all people produce the same and thus need to be graded and compensated accordingly. But Hundreds and millions for one person is ridiculos, unless it is a private company.

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by Scollins

I was part of union for 7 years, and I absolutely hated it during the last 5 years. Why? Well, a union is a collective of workers, some good, some bad, some average. There is usually not any type of merit or performance based pay raises for union workers. So, the average worker gets what he deserves, the bad worker gets way more than deserved, and the good worker gets screwed.



I was one of the "good" workers. I was typically at the top of the productivity list, worked very hard and did whatever I could to make sure the store would succeed. Why? Without a successful store, I had no place to work. So, I'm busting my butt working hard, and I'm getting paid exactly the same as the POS at the bottom of the productivity list!!! What is up with that?????? You couldn't fire these worthless people either, or they would run to the union office and cry discrimination.

It's the universal part of humanity. Some people are good at what they do, some not. It's almost impossible to fire a Union RN. Unless they commit a serious crime, or kill someone outright, you can't get rid of them.



Unionized hospitals tend to be the places where a lot of marginal to very bad nurses end up, because it's almost impossible to get rid of them once you have them, and they get paid like everyone else, even though a lot of the time, extra staff is hired to do the job they should be doing, because either they can't, won't, or are not competent to actually do it. They make life a living hell for thier associates, who have to watch, cover for, and sometimes work for, these people.



To "fire" a union nurse requires a team of lawyers, documentation, and possibly video of malpractice by the offending individual... and efforts to collect such data tend to get you sued by the individual AND the union - as "spying" on your employee's performance is highly frowned upon. It's easier to get the nurse's license revoked, since the state licensing agencies usually have far more strict rules than what you can fire an RN for. Revocation is often not really the best answer - people should be used where they are competent, not tossed out of the profession, in many cases... . but currently, that's the normal routine for getting rid of a bad nurse or other unionized health care worker...



Since nursing is so specialized, a nurse might be great in a doctor's office, but be mortally dangerous on a surgical ward. In normal situations, management will move such people out of harm's way, often by firing, or simply talking them into moving where their skills lie.

 

[Chad Sheets]

I make very, very good money as a technician working for Caterpillar at a non-union facility. However, I am smart enough to know that if it was not for the Union facilities over in Illinois paying the people good cash, I wouldn't be making good cash.



Cat, GM, Ford, ChryCo whoever is not going to give $$$ away out of the goodness of their heart. If they could find someone to do my job with my knowledge for half the $$$, they would do it in a heartbeat. The only thing that stops them is that 5 letter word every big bucks corporation hates to hear, UNION. They screw us over and we will get the Union in there. They treat us very fair, so there is no reason for a Union.



I am glad I dont have to worry about Union dues and the threat of strikes. I also am glad my Dad was an UAW man with GM. If it wasn't for that Union job, we would not have lived the nicer life style we did. If it was not for the Unions in Illinois getting the workers nice benefits at CAT, we wouldn't have them either. Our wage and benefits package almost mirrors the same package the Union workers have. If they ever go down, we will be sure to follow.



I have nothing bad to say about Unions. I wouldn't be making the money I do today if it was not for them. I am sure of that.

 

[Champane Flight]

Call it

Well to start things out,I believe the word you are looking for is closed shop,NOT extorsion. I still believe everyone needs a job,not just the overacheivers. After all if you ask 90% of the people in this world they will tell you that they are above average.

Most of the so-called worthless employees I have seen in my workplace have only one thing against them,that is a boss that is just as worthless and has had a couple of greveinces filed on him by said employee. So the boss starts a worker against worker ploy by telling a another employee how wonderful they are and how worthless the other is.



We had a guy who could and did work his bu!! off and he was called worthless by every supervisor in pipeline. Why?Because he would not take their crap and filed if they tried to deviate from contract. Had another who was always on time and did his job. He was a little slow,but he got the job done and done right. Your saying he does not deserve to work?Both these men were fired,union or not. The employer always has the upper hand,he has the rules,safety regs,and rules he can make up as he goes.



Labor laws are a joke,do you know how long it takes to get the NLRB or the EEOC to even review a case?One year,if your lucky two at average!By that time you are bankrupt and working for minumum wage at the local Wal-Mart.



I am sorry,but I think just because you are in the health profession does not mean you cannot work for a decent wage. The cost of living up there is high,some of these nurses are single parents. Are we just a little jealous? I hope all nurses out there get a union,if there ever was a profession that needs it,its theirs. My mother was a diploma RN,my wife is a RN,one of my sons is a RN,and I have two daughter inlaws who are RNs. They work damn hard for damn little.

 

[Lhotka]

If anyone has ever held a job in this country they have benefited from organized labor in the form of better wages, safer working conditions, humane working conditions, better training ect...



Unions and labor law now exists thanks to past abuses by employers.



How do you feel about a 10 year old in a third world country working 14 hours a day in the textile industry to produce your cheap underwear?

 

[The patriot]

Congress increases it's pay despite recession...

Some guys 220+ years ago got pretty pi$$ed for similar reasons...