Congress increases its pay despite recession

[Power Wagon]

Re: Call it

Originally posted by Champane Flight

I am sorry,but I think just because you are in the health profession does not mean you cannot work for a decent wage. The cost of living up there is high,some of these nurses are single parents. Are we just a little jealous? I hope all nurses out there get a union,if there ever was a profession that needs it,its theirs. My mother was a diploma RN,my wife is a RN,one of my sons is a RN,and I have two daughter inlaws who are RNs. They work damn hard for damn little.

I have no idea what you consider to be "d### little", but anything in excess of $20 an hour in my area is really GOOD money. And in the 30's (like they are demanding) would make them very, very well paid.



Frankly, to say that someone who has a 2 year degree and has worked in thier profession for 2 years and can make 50K a year plus benefits is overworked and underpaid seems ludicrous to me. It's really a slap in the face of most people with a degree who never get anywhere near that kind of money in short order.



In fact, there are plenty of doctors, who, while they make a lot more, don't take home as much as those nurses can. After they get in debt a hundred grand, have to pay huge malpractice insurance, plus other various and sundry stuff, some fail to take home more than 30 grand a year. No, your argument does not wash... There's no reason to say that they deserve 30%, when they are literally at the top of the scale for thier area, for thier profession, and better paid than almost any other common job in the city... .

 

[Don M]

Lhotka said:



How do you feel about a 10 year old in a third world country working 14 hours a day in the textile industry to produce your cheap underwear?



Gimme a break. Im tired of reading and hearing that bleeding heart nonsense.



I wonder how the third world worker and his parents got where they are now? Ever ask that question? What ever happened to survival of the fittest? Ever hear of culling the herd?

Why do people in these third world countries continue to have kids? A ten year old boy in a factory is there because his folks did not have the cognitive abilitiy to control themselves in bed.

Nothing else. Is it so hard to understand?





Past abuses are just that, past abuses. Lets just keep making it tougher and tougher for people to earn a buck and employers to want to deal with all the mess of Unions. Ive got an idea, why dont we just send more jobs to the third world countries that need them more than us? Whatcha say Lhotka?

Many big corporations are doing it now. Finding cheaper labor without all the rules and regs to follow. Without all the labor unions to fight with.



Don~

 

[Scollins]

Originally posted by The patriot

Re: Congress increases it's pay despite recession...

Some guys 220+ years ago got pretty pi$$ed for similar reasons...

Well, having said that, I guess EVERYBODY working in the United States should forego a pay raise, eh? "Hey, we're in a recession, NOBODY gets a pay raise this year!" Yeah, like that would be acceptable to the working populace... ... .



Oh, and I don't think the Revolution War was started over Congressional salaries. If I remember correctly, it mostly stemmed from "Taxation without representation. " Well, you've got representation, now don't you. You don't like the fact that they allowed a pay raise to go through? How about you WRITE a letter to your Senators and Congressmen. WE don't need to know you are unhappy about it, they do.

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by Lhotka



How do you feel about a 10 year old in a third world country working 14 hours a day in the textile industry to produce your cheap underwear?

YOu know... How I <i><b>feel</i></b> about it has really not the slightest thing to do with what I <b>think</b> about it.



What I think, is that our tax structure... the idea that we tax productivity and creativity... is stupid beyond words. Taxing the INCOMES of the workers, the WAGES of the employers, and then the PRODUCTIVITY of those who actually bother to try to and stay here and DO something is so contrary to rational thought it's preposterous even on it's face. Each and every one of these policies impoverishes the american citizen, and makes it attractive to move our creativity to some other place that has less stupid tax and other policies.



But, we continue to do so, and do so in ever more punitive manners because we base policies on how people FEEL about someone else getting more income than they, or how people FEEL about "disparity of income". So, we make popular, but emotionally based policies that are irrational to the extreme, and in fact, have an entire political party who's very foundation is "Let us manipulate how you FEEL" in spite of the fact their every idea is wholesale idiocy.



Now that I did not answer your question (because it merits no consideration... my emotional inclinations are of nobody's concern but my own, and certainly should NEVER be used to make important decisions, much less important decisions that potentially impoverish a nation), let me go on to say that I'm sure the third world country's citizen who manages to make 20X his neighbor's income and starts living "the good life" by comparison, is probably pretty happy we have stupid tax and labor policy. But that does not extend to me, other than to say: "you democrats are getting precisely what you beg and plead for - slow ruination of our country and economy - becaues you refuse to think, and instead make your decisions based on emotion. I just wish you would wake up sometime before the end of your life and then live the regret of the damned who suddenly realize they were the cause of thier own damnation.



And that, my friend, is how I actually FEEL.

 

[LarryB]

Go PowerWagon!!!



"The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion"

 

[Champane Flight]

Agree

I do agree with your ideas on taxation PW. I however do not agree with any anti labor ideals you harbor. This country was founded by its work ethic,and many fortunes have been found on the backs of workers. Labor unions are on there way out right now,not because of lack of workers,because of the rampant anti-union campaigns of big buisness and the lack of involvment of the individual worker. (The "Out for myself" attitude). This gives the Union officials a free hand to do as they damn well please if the members are not watching(several examples of busted Unions and unbacked strikes). Less than 10% of American workers are Union at this time and the numbers are shrinking.



I hate to see them go. I do believe later on down the line that the American worker will see the true greed of big buisness and want them back,however conservatives will have "Right to work for less laws in place by then". It could be a better enviroment for workers if Companys and Unions could work together. I have seen a few cases that did work. But most company officials have giant egos to go along with their positions and pay,this puts a strain on any useful negotiations.



I would not ever come to the conclusion that either party is the "Ruination" of our country and ecnomy. ("The sky is falling,the sky is falling"). I do believe it is a balance of power between liberal thinking and the conservative thinking that makes this country great... ..... I still stand in the middle and watch both sides push there extremes. (Some would be laughable,except when you realize they really believe it!)

 

[Lhotka]

Powerwagon's Hypocrisy.



What happened to the "supply and demand" and "free enterprise" sermon you always preach? When demand for labor exceeds the supply, labor becomes more costly. Laborers can demand better wages and better working conditions. There is a national shortage of GOOD FULL TIME nurses. How are striking nurses different then oil companies reducing production to boost prices? Fundamentally there is no difference.

 

[Lhotka]

Don M.



Sounds like you defend the practice of a 10 year old in a third world country working 14 hours a day in the textile industry to produce your cheap underwear? BOXERS OR BRIEFS?



I am surprised that you would consider this view, one shared by George Bush, to be that of a bleeding heart liberal?



I also find it interesting that you often incorporate comments on breeding into your replies. You must have a background in animal husbandry? Interesting profile.

 

[Don M]

NO, I dont support the practice of any small boy working in terrible conditions. OTOH, I do support the culling of the herd, so to speak. I dont go to pity parties anymore after watching the bleeding hearts tug at strings of us all over stuff like this.

The boy is in the situation because his parents were to dim to figure out they could not feed him. Of course they could lay around and make him. The parents are the responsible party right? In another country right? These other third world countries are full of people that should have been culled generations ago.

Bleeding heart just add to the long term problems by feeling their pain and helping them with money, food, etc.



The best long term help is to let them alone. Let the forces of nature shape them. Cull them and finally make them realize that having more babies is part of the problem. Make the money to support your offspring first. Then think about procreation. Its high time we let them learn on their own. Kick them outta the nest!



I do wear boxers to sleep in and find them quite comfortable. Knowing they could be produced in a third world country kinda makes me feel better knowing that someone may be learning a lesson from the hard labor. That lesson being that they should not have kids until they can afford it. Not put their kids through the same trails as themselves.



Don~

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by Lhotka

Powerwagon's Hypocrisy.



What happened to the "supply and demand" and "free enterprise" sermon you always preach? When demand for labor exceeds the supply, labor becomes more costly. Laborers can demand better wages and better working conditions. There is a national shortage of GOOD FULL TIME nurses. How are striking nurses different then oil companies reducing production to boost prices? Fundamentally there is no difference.

In my lifetime, oil companies have not reduced production to boost prices. Foreign countries, yes, but not domestic oil companies. Why? Competition. Since there is really no shortage of oil - except artificial limitations set by OPEC - then any company that reduces output merely funnells business to his competitor. The days when a single producer could create a "shortage" are long gone, with the exit of the monopoly days of Standard Oil. And even then, they did not raise it all that much... doing so would have created an entry point for a competing oil company.



Quote my "hypocrisy" about the law of "supply and demand", please. I have none. The supply has not met the demand in nursing for some time, and will not for quite some time, as well, barring some major economic event that decreases the demand. This is why nursing is SO WELL PAID. A nurse with a 2 year degree and two years of experience will make a LOT more than, say, a teacher, a CISCO CCNA, and a whole string of other degree'd people. Why? The shortage.



My beef is with a union who talks their members into striking, when there is no reason to. Pay, benefits and working conditions at the striking facility are better than anywhere else in the state, and are better than any comparable skill and education position in most every other industry. Basically, the union is attempting to create a monopoly on labor, and force the wages into the unbearable level. You seem to forget that YOU have to pay these wages, in the form of health insurance, hospital bills, and otherwise. Monopolies on commodities are no less wrong than attempts to create monopolies on labor - and that's the union goal.





I've seen whining and moaning about American jobs leaving to go elsewhere. But I've never seen anyone here on a rant because they can buy a nice TV for under 300 bucks - and they think it should cost 1200, so we can be assembling them with union labor at unreasonable rates. There is no magic bullet... YOU WILL PAY the entire cost of all of these unreasonable wage demands, no way around it.

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by Lhotka

Don M.



Sounds like you defend the practice of a 10 year old in a third world country working 14 hours a day in the textile industry to produce your cheap underwear? BOXERS OR BRIEFS?



I am surprised that you would consider this view, one shared by George Bush, to be that of a bleeding heart liberal?



I also find it interesting that you often incorporate comments on breeding into your replies. You must have a background in animal husbandry? Interesting profile.

Please explain to me why it is my responsibility, using tax policy, or some other tool of my government, to try to alter the laws of foreign countries...



Talk about hypocrisy... The left has been screaming for months, since the attack on Sept 11, that WE are the big bully on the block, forcing our ideas on other countries.



So, when other countries welcome industry that brings jobs and much higher incomes to their people, now, suddenly, we are SUPPOSED to interfere in their business. Somehow, I guess, we're supposed to take away their jobs (bad as it might be for a 14 year old who's considered of age in his country) to go out and work a job that'll support his whole immediate family. It seems to me that their government and their parents, and to some degree, their country collectively, are the ones who are failing in this situation... . Not some TDR member who refuses to wallow in a pity party or grovel in a guilt trip over the events that have transpired.



Nobody here is defending "sweatshops", that's not the point and never has been. But the cure is not higher taxes and union thugs here, but more capitalism over there - and a simple respect for private property, human rights, and the rule of just law.

 

[Power Wagon]

Re: Agree

Originally posted by Champane Flight

I do agree with your ideas on taxation PW. I however do not agree with any anti labor ideals you harbor. This country was founded by its work ethic,and many fortunes have been found on the backs of workers.

Hardly...



I am not "anti-labor". I am "Anti union thuggery". Whatever thier intent upon founding was long ago perverted, and they have become a violent, militant political activist group that uses laws, force, and activity that in any other situation would cause extended jail times, to further the greed and corruption rampant in the organizations. The unions have become an arm of the Democrat party, by creating a monopoly on jobs ,and then extorting money from those who want to work, and then using that ill-gotten fortune to buy legislation, laws, and politicians to do their bidding. And all of it, in my view, is in direct opposition to the welfare of the citizens of this country. Not in my "sentient" lifetime (past 8th grade) have unions actually backed any idea, or promoted any idea that I consider to be good for the country. One look at thier lobbying efforts, and you're struck with thier fanatical devotion to massive taxes, government spending, governmetn regulation, and government handouts, as well as being pretty much bankrollers for such paragons of virtue as Teddy Kennedy.

 

[Power Wagon]

Re: Agree

Originally posted by Champane Flight

I do agree with your ideas on taxation PW.

You do? Your precious unions spend billions fighting to preserve and worsen our abominable tax system annually.



Why? Bad taxes, bad economies, and all around general misery is the only situation that empowers them.



We read in history about how the Romans kept some of thier conquered lands in line. They salted the farmland. They made them dependent upon the conquerors for thier food. The unions do the same thing. They lobby for the most damaging, the most hurtful things, and hope and pray for economic ruin, so they can then run around claiming to be the "saviors" of the working stiff.



Just as Jesse Jackson makes sure he stirs up racial strife as often and as violently as possible everywhere he goes and every event he can capitalize on, so that he has a "purpose" in "fighting" this stuff, union thugs need vanishing jobs, vanishing money, dropping wages, and a bad economy to be empowered. They thrive on the misery of average shmuck, and do their best to make sure that misery never goes away.



However, they have been a little too effective. They've managed to almost completely kill all the industries that were traditionally union, and now they've discovered they need a better protected power base, so they are doing thier best to move into areas that are really hard to kill... health care and governmetn employees. Since both are relatively immune to export, it is the "perfect" field of endeavor, so you see, they have to now "prove" thier value by extorting massive wages from the hapless public who can then be extorted almost any amount... The "pay us or die" routine by refusing to provide life-preserving care.



Just think of it as the guy holding the bottle of nitroglycerin who demands more and more for each pill as the heart disease victim agonizes in pain. Now you get the picture.

 

[The patriot]

Originally posted by Scollins

Oh, and I don't think the Revolution War was started over Congressional salaries. If I remember correctly, it mostly stemmed from "Taxation without representation. " Well, you've got representation, now don't you. You don't like the fact that they allowed a pay raise to go through?

Yes, I know my history,I know there was much more involved with the revolution. (lets see, disarmament, confiscation of private property, heavy taxes, overbearing govt..... sounds kind of like now!) I'm not suggesting we have one either.

Some here would think were being taxed w/o representation. I do! I've written my Congressman and Senator regularly. Rarley do I get a reply, and when I do it's a form letter. I dont expect that they read every piece of mail, but at least have an idea of the content before pushing the reply button!! Repersentation? Ah... ... ... ... . YEA RIGHT!!

I think weve been through a he** of a year. Next year dont look too goo (so they say) these guys make dam good money for what they do. Not to mention the perks.

How about they get a raise depepdent upon how many votes they were present for? I dont think this would be too unfair to the poor politicians, do you? In many jobs, if you dont work, you dont get payed? Are we in agreement here?

I'm not trying to start a flame war (or any other type) here. Maybe I'm in the minority, I dont know?

I'm unfortunatly in a state that has places like Newark and Camden voting in out reps. Just makes me sick that these peolpe are on their backs squirting out babies, doing this to the hard working individual. Most of these never held a job, or payed taxes!!

Rant mode off. Flame away.

Eric

PS I'd be happy if they would cut taxes a bit. I think most (working) peolpe would.

 

[The patriot]

Originally posted by Scollins

Well, you've got representation, now don't you.

Do I? They just gave themselves a raise w/o our approval. Actually without ANYONES approval!

Used to be that it was an honor to serve this country. Now it's "Help yourself". Just another prime example of the self serving politician.



Eric

PS They'd be boinking your daughter if she worked in their office, while picking your pocket. But nothing's wrong here... right?

 

[Don M]

I'm unfortunatly in a state that has places like Newark and Camden voting in out reps. Just makes me sick that these peolpe are on their backs squirting out babies, doing this to the hard working individual. Most of these never held a job, or payed taxes!!

Man its an auction not an election now. Whichever candidate gives the most in the new host/parasite paradigm gets the vote.

The redistribution of the wealth from the haves to the have nots because they deserve it.

Just tell women you'll give them free day care, healthcare, and underwrite their poor choices with somebody else's money. They deserve it, and you're gonna give it to em. You will win.



70% death tax [just to churn the economy for the benefit of the "needy". ] Cradle to grave healthcare will endure only until somebody discovers that certain "behaviors" mean higher "costs". Utopians may be surprisingly niggardly with public dollars when exponential demand by the "unfit", "imperfect", and "unhealthy", drain the treasury of discretionary dollars, which could be used to rescue aging rock climbers and provide necessary paths for bicycle riding city dwellers.



Elections today can only be described as 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.



What are we up against?

1. Government workers. That includes some teachers. These little bloodsuckers multiply like roaches and don't like compensation tied to performance or tenure. They succeed only at our expense. [Fiercely Anti-Republican street fighters] Just wait until the 300 pound Compton queen asks to do a full body search of you in the airports in the future since the government took over the security of airports.



2. Unions. ---See above without the breeding capacity from government funding. --But hey, anything's possible.



3. Women. ---Unfortunately they see government as surrogate parent and husband. I've always said women are natural socialists. They have been trading away liberty for promises of security since we jumped out of the trees. They will vote police state utopia every time, if they think it will be easier for them. I would gladly give up my vote if they were banished as a group from electoral politics. What was Jack Nicholson's great line when asked the difference between a man and a woman? --"Take away logic and accountability," he said with signature smirk.



4. Blacks and Latinos --Too many are addicted to the drip system. Add a desire for open borders so their friends and relatives can share the spoils. [These are traditional Anti-Republicans who equate a brown man voting Republican with chickens voting Colonel Saunders. ]



5. Trial Lawyers. --They feed on the conflict between warring parasites. A utopian police state guarantees that everyone is guilty of something, sometime. It's a bonanza for defense attorneys and prosecutors as well.



6. Gays. --They cling to dems, the only ones who understand their pain. ["Heterosexuals probe each other's body parts on prime time TV. Why can't we?"]





To the fool who mutters to himself that "not ALL blacks, women, government workers, unions, gays and trial lawyers are dumb, violent and uncivilized", --- let me just add this. Generalizations are on their face unfair and unkind to the individual. Yet generalizations are valid and are by definition, more true than not. The proper grasp of generalizations is how this species made it to the top of the food chain…and stayed there. The argument of the aberrant success story for a small percentage of these groups is just that -an aberration. It does nothing to help our desperate situation, and undermines any effort to reverse the self-evident failure of them as a group to organize or achieve any level of self-control.



Don~

 

[Lhotka]

Powerwagon take some time and CAREFULLY read my post about 10 year olds working 14 hour days. You never quite seem to respond to what is said. Rather, you tend to respond to what you WANT TO BELEIVE is being said. You have an uncanny ability to write paragraph after paragraph and say absolutely nothing.



Have a good day!!

 

[Don M]

Lhotka, you seem to be of the party that caters to the people I have mentioned above. Are you?

Since you have not ever told me your political position I dont want to assume anything.



I remember you have defended Hillary the Hyena and now the Unions. Are you a commie? Again just asking.



Don~

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by Lhotka

Powerwagon take some time and CAREFULLY read my post about 10 year olds working 14 hour days. You never quite seem to respond to what is said. Rather, you tend to respond to what you WANT TO BELEIVE is being said. You have an uncanny ability to write paragraph after paragraph and say absolutely nothing.



Have a good day!!

YOu asked only one thing... How someone "felt" about it.



Well, I very much did answer that, and explained myself. What, precisely, did you not understand about my answer?

 

[Diesel Freak]

Originally posted by Lhotka

If anyone has ever held a job in this country they have benefited from organized labor in the form of better wages, safer working conditions, humane working conditions, better training ect...



Unions and labor law now exists thanks to past abuses by employers.



How do you feel about a 10 year old in a third world country working 14 hours a day in the textile industry to produce your cheap underwear?

Have you ever been to a Third World Country?



Have you ever taken the time to check the "cost of living" in a third world country?



Why do people still judge the rest of the world by US standards of living, income, poverty level etc?



Do you know how far $20 can go in a third world country?



Why do people automaticly assume that when someone in such a country makes $20/day they are impoverished and downtroden?



BTW I like my cheap underwear!



Bubble Bubble Boil and Tumble.