Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Copper

[David Oxland]

Just got my second oil analysis results back. Still lots of copper showing but no other bearing materials lead or tin. The lab suggests cooler material or assembly lubes. At 50000 miles I thought the assembly stuff would have been mostly washed away by now. The lube is Delvac 5W-40. I believe there were some other posts of this nature. Did they come to any resolve? Suppose I should ask Cummins about it but sort of expect to get a pat bureaucratic answer.

 

[kaffine krazed]

Have you sent in a sample of the new oil to see if mabey it has a high copper count for some reason?

 

[andrewkoperdak]

I gotta ask this question. Why in the world are you using 5W40? Owners manual says 15W40. The thinner oil is probably the cause of you high copper content.

I read in a manual somewhere that the thick oils tend to decrease metal to metal contact on certain bearing surfaces. to thick poses the risk of insufficient lubrication. Anyway I had to ask.

I run Amsoil 15W40 and my 10K mile change had all values very low on the tolerance bands.

Andy

 

[illflem]

He's probably running 5w-40 because he lives in the cold north, many do.



David, sometimes high copper can come from poor sampling techniques namely residue from the oil plug sealing washer or drain valve. Not sure how you've been taking your samples but here's how I do it:



All from the hardware store. Buy an 1/8" NPT X 1/4" compression valve (these are common for ice makers and swamp coolers), a 1/8"X3" nipple and 3' of 1/4"plastic tubing, will cost you less than $10. With the engine off but warmed up connect this setup to the plugged 1/8" port on top of your oil filter housing, hand tight no Teflon tape. Start the engine, open the valve and run oil though the tubing into your oil fill spout to flush it out for awhile. You can now take a sample with great control with the sample being the only loss of oil. Shut down the engine, open the 1/8'' valve and elevate the tubing to let the oil in it drain back then remove and replace the plug. If you like leave the valve in place and just remove the tubing.



Oil taken from the drain plug for a sample should be midway though the drain if you want any degree of accuracy. Sort of defeats the purpose of extended drains if you have to drain half your oil. Pouring drain oil back in is too much of a messy hassle plus you lose whatever is stuck to your drain pan.

 

[amsoilman]

Copper can come from bushings, bearings, thrust washers, oil coolers, and in some cases an oil additive as well! If you have no other wear metals showing up as "moderately high", I would suspect it could be from the oil cooler.



Andy,

Viscosity of 5W-40, 10W-40, or 15W-40 Oil is exactly the same at the "operating" oil temperature. The Kinematic viscosity

(ASTM D-445) determined at 40 C. and/or 100C. is a measure of the flow rate of an oil in relation to time. This data is used to assign an SAE grade to an oil. Example: a 40 grade oil must be between 12. 50 cSt min, and 16. 29 cSt max to be classified as a 40 grade oil.

The big difference between these three oils are at the cold temperatures. Example:5W oil would be 3. 8 cSt@ -35 C. Minimum, 10W oil would be 4. 1 cSt@ -30 C. Minimum, and 15W oil would be 5. 6 cSt@ -25C Minimum.

These figures come from SAE J-300 Engine Oil Viscosity Classification guide, Dec 1999.

All Multi-Viscosity oils are derived from a base stock that possesses the desired low temperature properties. To that stock, chemical compounds known as index improvers are added. These viscosity index improvers minimize the thinning of the oil as temperatures increase. This in turn allows the lighter base stock to also meet the high temperature requirements.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[JJW_ND]

Mobil Delvac 5W40 has highest Visc100C

I got my first Mobil Delvac 5W40 sample back and I had a Visc100C reading after 6K miles of 13. 5.



THis is higher then any other 15w40 oil I have test. I pull a sample every 6K and have over 220K on the truck now. Higher then PB2000, Rotella, Amsoil 15W40. Most other 15W40 oils test in the 12's only a few came back in the very low 13's. All within the 40 Weight range Wayne mentioned.



Interestingly , the Delvac runs slight higher Oil temperature.



I too had a high cooper reading two samples back of 72. Last sample was 12, most times it has been single digit for me. I have always pulled my samples from drain plug, drained a gallon, grab sample and pour used oil back in (only change every 24K). Beings I pulled samples this way the first 70K while I drained and dumpled the oil, I thought I would keep sampling this way to keep the sample collection consistent.



jjw

ND

 

[RADdodge]

Illflem – excellent idea on taking oil samples. I’m going to try that next time. Always something to learn here. I’m even beginning to “warm up” to the idea of using Amsoil.

 

[amsoilman]

For your information regarding oil analysis and how to get a good sample, Amsoil Inc. does sell a small pump with plastic tubing. This device has the ability to screw on a small sampling bottle. The plastic tubing is then inserted into the pump and the other end goes down thru the dipstick hole to the oil in the pan. One simply pumps the pump till the bottle is full, then you remove the bottle and the tubing, clean the pmp and your ready for the next sample. The kit cost is under $30. 00 and includes 10 ft. of tubing.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[andrewkoperdak]

amsoilman

I read and understand what you wrote in your thread. Answer me this though, I put Delvac 15W40 in my engine, because I could not get my amsoil to my house fast enough, My cold oil pressure was about 25 psi lower than when I use the same viscosity amsoil. If there are standards then why do I have a difference?

I am not trying to make a case for Amsoil or any other brand. I am just trying to understand why I get different numbers with different oil. Related to this is the fact that my water jacket temperature was about 5 degree hotter on Delvac 15W40 then with Amsoil 15W40 Diesel and Marine. If they are the "same" then why does my engine get hotter in half the time? Somewhere there are answers to these questions.

I like amsoil products but I don't want to say amsoil is better or worse than any other product. I just want to learn something.

Andy

 

[amsoilman]

I am just trying to understand why I get different numbers with different oil. Related to this is the fact that my water jacket temperature was about 5 degree hotter on Delvac 15W40 then with Amsoil 15W40 Diesel and Marine. If they are the "same" then why does my engine get hotter in half the time? Somewhere there are answers to these questions.

If I understand correctly, you are using a "Delvac"15W-40, which is a petroleum based oil, and the Amsoil 15W-40 (AME) is a synthetic based oil. The "Delvac 1 " is a 5W-40 and is a synthetic based oil as well, but you are saying you are using a 15W-40 "Delvac". Is this correct?



If you are trying to compare the "Delvac" 15W-40 oil against the Amsoil 15W-40 (AME) oil, then you could see the differences you mention in regards to heat and oil pressures, as the synthetic based oil will flow easier at colder temps, as well as cool better because of the internal friction of the synthetic vs. the petroleum based product.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[redram]

Originally posted by illflem

Start the engine, open the valve and run oil though the tubing into your oil fill spout to flush it out for awhile. You can now take a sample with great control with the sample being the only loss of oil.



Sampling oil from the 1/8 inch NPT plug on the oil filter housing has some drawbacks also in that if the goal of the sampling is to detect initial engine wear, this oil sample is being drawn 'after' the oil filter and potentially will filter out any wear metals that might be occurring.



Ideally, for the purposes of early engine wear indications to prevent majors component damage, the oil sample should be taken coming out of the engine, not after filtration.



However, this is a good spot to check the effectivenenss of the filter and useful life left in the oil as it is representative of what is being sent to the engine.

 

[David Oxland]

Sorry to take so long to get back, been away for the week.

First I'm not to worried that this is bearing material 'cause there are no other bearing materials with tin or lead. Second the hot viscosity is up there high enough to do the job.

The only reason for the 5W is that is the way Delvac naturally comes in it's synthetic form and the 5W results from a naturally high viscosity index. Also this vehicle does to darn much cold start and short run stuff.



Mainly I'm wondering if it's working away at the cooler and if there's any history of these coolers failing or being replaced.



The idea of a proper live sampling port is a good one Bill; I should know better as We have them all over the place at work. I'm not really in Eskimo land as we're below the 49th here on Vancouver Island and have weather slightly more moderate than Seattle.



I'm wondering if the cooler had a surface that might have had some oxidized material and was eroding or being attacked by the oil and by the way my copper #'s are high 200 and 600!

 

[stick]

David:

Just my two cents. I chased the high copper also, and went the route of changeing the cooler with no help to the copper content.

The tech at the amsoil lab told me it might be the turbo bearings, so i changed these, and my copper started it's way down. If you get to this point, rebuilding a turbo is pretty easy, and a lot cheaper than a new one.



Stick