Cummins ECM Hacking

[jrobinson2]

For the VP, all you need to do is to send me the ECM... .

Does this mean you have worked out all the bugs and are ready to go to market with your MAD ECMs for VP trucks?

Jared

 

[qzilla]

Originally posted by realsquash

Group,



I've reprogrammed a few GM EFI computers for my various projects and I'm keen on doing the same to my 03 CTD. It's all computer controlled and all this bolt-on box stuff seems very archaic to me. Faking out the fuel pressure? Bah! The best way to control pulse width would seemingly be from the device that controls it, the ECM on the engine itself.



Does anyone know what make these are? Has anyone done anything with them? Anyone got one that I can take apart and fool with?



Thanks,

Andy

p. s. I am my own warranty station.

It has already been done. Patience friends, just use a little patience. If you can just hang on it will be much cheaper than trying to do it yourself!

 

[realsquash]

How much patience qzilla? I'm itching to do this! I was waiting for the TST box but now that I know how it works I'm not to high on that design.



I don't suppose you'd like to elaborate a little qzilla? I'm sure you've got some secrets but I have to ask ya know



Andy

 

[qzilla]

They are both good ways to go and they both have there upsides. All I can say is it won't be that long, but I don't want to end up like other companies with everyone upset with them.



All I can say is patience will be rewarded!

 

[Marco]

That's pretty much been my conclusion as well - some fuel-map issues aggravated by various sensor inputs in cold weather, and complicated by added power boxes - probably too expensive and complicated for ordinary owners to correct, and DC sure isn't gonna do it!

Expensive?



If you have an ECM or can do without your truck from Monday to Friday... .

Send me the ECM, all you'll have to pay will be the shipping.



Marco

 

[Turbo Tim 1]

Marco,



Just pay shipping..... is that just for a stumbling problem or would you soup up an ECM.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"If you have an ECM or can do without your truck from Monday to Friday... .

Send me the ECM, all you'll have to pay will be the shipping. "



Great offer - hope those most affected see it!



In my case, it's far more curiosity as to cause - my own truck has only lightly displayed the effect 3 consequetive mornings (in the nearly 2 years I've owned it) on our last RV trip when we encountered below freezing temps in the southern states - very untypical operation and climate for us in particular, and even then, it only manifested itself when towing the RV - unloaded, the effect was gone or below the threshold of perception... Even at that, if I had a spare ECM that I knew was affedted - all are NOT seemingly affected - it would be worth the effort. I'm on the lookout for a spare ECM, as well as a spare VP-44 "just in case" - if I come up with one, I'll be looking you up...



For the record, I'll go out on one of my "theory" limbs - I suspect that while the basic cause of the hesitation IS fuel related, the REAL culprit is the ECM sensing the fueling issue and trying to rapidly comphensate by changing timing inside the VP-44 - I think that is why the edge-type boxes aggravate the problem because they add their own increased timing to what the ECM is doing, making the surging even worse. I'd bet that if we could see inside the VP-44 when this is occurring, that timing plunger is really hard at work pushing or pulling that fancy timing donut in the VP-44...



Thanks for the input and offer Marco - I'll possibly take advantage of it if circumstances permit, and will relay the info to those more seriously affected!

 

[BillGotthelf]

Cummins is very protective of the ECM software. I believe that a certain box company got a cease and desist order when they were rewriting software for the 98. 5 ECM. Cummins said that the software in the ECM was proprietary. Thats why boxes were added to the system. If you are gonna rewrite code for performance don't sell it or you'll be getting a letter from Cummins attorneys. They also made it more difficult in the 3rd generation trucks to even read the code thats why the pulse boxes hijack the signal and create their own signal network.

 

[qzilla]

You are exactly correct, but there is more to it than meets the eye.



I think it is best to leave this alone.



Also what actually happened is that Cummins was going to file a lawsuit, but found that nothing was actually getting changed, and then it was dropped. Now I was not involved in this, but it comes from a mighty good source.



Quad

 

[realsquash]

Originally posted by qzilla

I think it is best to leave this alone.

I don't agree. I paid a lot of money for my truck. I can burn it to the ground if that's what I want to do with it. There two ways to look at it, I guess.



I don't mind paying good money for a good product instead of hacking on my own but said product doesn't exist.



Andy

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Originally posted by GGades

I can't find a chart for a 7000lb package via Fed Ex to Via Pinzon, Italy.

:-laf :-laf

 

[willyslover]

For the new guys the person who had the problem early on was Mark Chapple of TST fame [a former employee of Cummins who developed some of the software for the fist 24 valves and re-programed some ECM's for sale with his start up company] he is the one I referred earlier. . his troubles are why it took so long for upgrade boxes to hit the market for the 24 valve

Nowel had one of the re-programed ECM's in the Red Rocket way back when, at that point he was a whopping 350 HP +/-

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"I don't mind paying good money for a good product instead of hacking on my own but said product doesn't exist. "



But unfortunately for many, the PROBLEM does exist - and it's highly unlikely either DC or Cummins will do any more to fix THIS KNOWN one than they did LP, VP-44 or automatic transmission problems...

 

[DIESELMAN]

As for filing a suit because someone is reverse engineering your code, you can sue for any reason, doesn't mean you will win.



Just like with a Microsoft based PC, you can run it as is, you can get bored with the performance, and you can bomb it.



You still aren't in trouble.



You can decide that better software is required, or firmware, and decide to write your own, you are still legal, but you are getting the big guys upset. They have a tremendous investment.



You can ask for the Source Code, but you won't get it, and this is where the trouble can begin, you are a marked man.



You can legally, though you may get sued, crack it open and determine how it works, and you can determine the cause and effect of input vs output and resultant actions.



You can read the software/firmware to your hearts delight, there is no law against it, and copyright law has nothing to do with it.



But you cannot decipher, or reverse engineer, the software, for any other purpose other than to see how it works. No one has ever LOST a suit over reverse engineering itself. That doesn't mean they haven't been sued.



And it is a legal defense to reverse engineer to assure that a creation is indeed unique, chicken or the egg.



But, now that you know what makes it tick, you better be 100% original in generating your own code to effect the same outcome. This is where most lawsuits go awry.



Is there only one way to do something, or did the author copy? And who is the judge of that?



When generating a 'hack' of code, you can't sell the code or the processor or controller containing it because it is a derivitive work of another, but you could legally hack each device, while the hardware is still owned by the respective hack purchaser.



Creating entirely new ECM code so that you could sell a complete ECM to anyone, perfectly legal, but very tough. Someone will copy and they will be sued to see if thats the case.



As for data tables within code, while you can, or at least should, be able to change the data that a program acts upon, most software writers can convince a court that the data is part of the program, and that changing anything embedded in a controller, is a change to a copyrighted work, and therefore a derivitave, and illegal.



I think the best bomb on our new trucks is a complete ECM. Either someone really goes overboard and creates an entirely new device, or creates entirely new firmware to run the existing hardware.



And they will probably be sued.

 

[KLockliear]

The problem with what TST and Dr. P were doing back in the late 80's with the first 24v's is that they were using Cummins supplied software to communicate and reprogram the ECM. Had they developed their OWN stuff, there would be nothing that Cummins could do.



As has been mentioned, this may be closer to reality than you think.

 

[BillGotthelf]

There are many ways to open the "doors" to program the chip, just ask any good satelitte tv hacker. Last time I checked Cummins had way deeper pockets than me.

 

[Briman]

Dieselman,



That was well stated.



There is of course the software legalities concerning Unix/Linix going on now. I know Cummins code is not exactly the same deal, though it somehow seems analogous to what you have just described.



He or they that owns the source will protect it with as much veracity as they can muster. Software law seems to be largely nebulous and he who can state their case the most eloquently (has the most cash) will most likely win.



Advanced micro systems has a lot of experience in taking a totally different code and creating the same net result. Intel hates their ability.



I can't imagine what it would cost to come to marked with an ECM that was defend-able in court (including court costs of course).

 

[sbentz]

Great Discussion - another Route...

I have given quite a bit of thought to this, and have considered just starting over with a new ECM, and building the calibration tables for it. If you look at the Haltech, Accel, and many others, it is simple to do it with a EFI engine, just do similar, with timing changes, and build in VGT controls.



I would not hack the Cummins side, for commercial (and legal) reasons.



For me, just playing with the dragster and a common rail, it may be the easier route.



To do it for a street rig, and having all of the creature comforts, (heat grid, etc. ) it makes it a lot harder.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

It isn't as tho' the stock ECM is a big failure for the normal operator - and I am assuming you guys are referring more to performance upgrades and redesign - but it's a shame that owners faced with some of the more isolated problems such as the hesitation bit just plain have nowhere to turn for a "fix" - the local dealers don't have a clue - and DC or Cummins have too many other irons in the fire...

 

[realsquash]

Originally posted by Briman

There is of course the software legalities concerning Unix/Linix going on now. I know Cummins code is not exactly the same deal, though it somehow seems analogous to what you have just described.

Yeah SCO isn't the same thing as Cummins. Now if Cummins went and told the other diesels manufacturers that they all used Cummins paint on their engines there would be a parallel



Andy