Cummins, GM and Ford Diesel componet comparison

[richardcoxid]

Sometime in the mid to late 90’s D/C had some very good advertising promoting the fact that the Cummins inline 6 had about 40% fewer parts than a comparable V-8. Does anybody have any idea why RAM doesn’t use the same approach today?



Also about the same time span there were numerous web sites showing photos/specs comparing the size, weight, bearing surface area etc. of the Cummins, GM and Ford Diesel connecting rods, crankshafts and blocks etc. What happened to them and why isn’t something similar being done today to promote the Cummins Diesel?



Richard

 

[TFucili]

The photos are still around. As far as the number of components, I think you have to realize that they are marketing to the "average" buyer, and I think it is safe to say that the average person on the street will always surmise that eight cylinders is better than six. Most people just don't know about trucks. I have had innumerable people give me the unbelieving look when I explain to them that that eighteen-wheeler rumbling by is powered by a straight six. They assume it's a V-8. I have gone through this time and again, and have pretty much given up on it. I know what works for me, and that is six in a row. Let 'em drive Powerstrokes, and I'll stick with my tractor motor.

 

[Skydiver]

The photos are still around. As far as the number of components, I think you have to realize that they are marketing to the "average" buyer, and I think it is safe to say that the average person on the street will always surmise that eight cylinders is better than six. Most people just don't know about trucks. I have had innumerable people give me the unbelieving look when I explain to them that that eighteen-wheeler rumbling by is powered by a straight six. They assume it's a V-8. I have gone through this time and again, and have pretty much given up on it. I know what works for me, and that is six in a row. Let 'em drive Powerstrokes, and I'll stick with my tractor motor.

That is exactly what I was going to say. Common sense is a thing of the past. Today you see auto commercials that hardly even show any scenes of the car. You just get to see some folks walking or doing stupid things. I can't believe some of the junk from the college educated people in the marketing dept. Makes our whole nation look bad.
I'm glad this dodge commercial was banned.
YouTube - DODGE Banned Commercial

 

[HBarlow]

I have an old "friend" who has been a Chevy truck salesman for 20 to 30 years. He once tried to sell me a Duramax. I laughed at him and told him he couldn't give me one. My comment led to an explanation of my reasons. He also thought 18 wheel OTR trucks had V8 engines just like his Duramax GMs because he had seen some with twin stacks. And he had driven big trucks for awhile when he was young.

There is no cure for stupid and it affects much of our population.

 

[rscurtis]

X2 on that last sentence. Another factor, IMO, why this is not used in advertising any more is that the parts disparity is smaller than it used to be. Back in the early nineties, the Cummins used a heavier rod than it does now, and the 6. 5 and 7. 3 were truly much smaller by comparison. The later Ford and GM parts are closer in size to the revised CR fracture-split rods used today.

 

[RHestand]

I'll be delaying anymore more of my disparaging opinions regarding turbo V/8 diesels at least until the new Ford "Scorpion" V/8 reverse flow (exhaust/intake) gets a proper shake-out.
IMO, with their new single turbo (With twin compressor wheels) sitting directly on top of the lifter valley and collecting all the hot exh. gasses coming up from both heads, (Don't forget, heat rises!) seems to me to be a very efficient way to build a turbocharged V/8 diesel.
Then you can add to that a more compact engine package ( Approximately 65%? as long as our I-6s and narrower and lighter than the earlier turbo V/8 diesels Ford has been installing. ) This could allow for installations in a wider range of vehicles if the opportunity were to avail itself.
Don't take me wrong, I'm still a huge fan of the Cummins eng. , but I just see this kind of innovation for diesel engines very exciting. I personally would like to see at least 20-30% of our daily drivers in this country being turbo diesel powered.
Ray

 

[RustyJC]

I'll be delaying anymore more of my disparaging opinions regarding turbo V/8 diesels at least until the new Ford "Scorpion" V/8 reverse flow (exhaust/intake) gets a proper shake-out.

IMO, with their new single turbo (With twin compressor wheels) sitting directly on top of the lifter valley and collecting all the hot exh. gasses coming up from both heads, (Don't forget, heat rises!) seems to me to be a very efficient way to build a turbocharged V/8 diesel.

Nothing new about the Ford 6. 7. Industrial Vee-configuration engines have used center exhaust and outboard air manifolds for many decades.



Rusty

 

[RHestand]

Nothing new about the Ford 6. 7. Industrial Vee-configuration engines have used center exhaust and outboard air manifolds for many decades.



Rusty

Sorry, I probably should have mentioned it, but I was only referencing auto and truck applications.

Ray

 

[rbattelle]

Great question. Dodge used to have some great ads. Remember the one about the Cummins being able to carry it's own weight at idle, plus the weight of another truck sitting across its bed (they showed a truck doing exactly that)? I have fond memories of that one - it had a big effect on me.

The Dodge/Cummins combination used to have an almost legendary aura about it, particularly in the early 90s after the change to the 2nd gen body. I still remember being told about towing "10 ton earthmoving equipment up steep grades" in the Adirondacks by a wide-eyed friend of mine in 1996.

Somewhere along the way the Cummins engine dropped into "passing mention" status in modern advertising. Last time I heard it on a TV commercial the announcer said, "... and a legendary Cummins engine. " That was it.

Maybe the Cummins sells itself, and there's little reason to advertise it? Maybe Dodge figures there's little chance at recruiting anybody from the Chevy or Ford side? After all, why would anyone want to go from a V8 to a 6-cylinder - 8 is bigger than 6, right?

As our standard of living has improved, gone by the wayside are ideas like longevity, durability, and maintainability. Who cares if you have to remove the body to change a turbo? I have money - that's someone else's problem! Who cares if the engine can last 350000 miles when I'm going to get a new one before the warranty is up?

At the end of the day I have to assume that Dodge, Ford, and GM have all researched the "right" way to advertise six ways from Sunday. As far as all the research indicates, they must be doing it right. So what do modern truck commercials say about the modern truck buyer? I suppose they're saying, "people care only about tow & payload ratings and horsepower - what's under the hood is irrelevant. "

I wonder what the pickup truck preference is for class 8 truckers.

-Ryan
P. S. A lot of otherwise intelligent people have no idea what components are anyway. I have a B5. 9 connecting rod on my desk - it's amazing how many people not only have no idea what it is, but have no idea where it goes in an engine or what its function is. The classic connecting rod photo is lost on these people.

 

[macdaddy]

I can remember my first thought of a diesel for towing. At the time I was in a GMC gasser 454 235/385. My neighbor had a 94 single cab long bed CTD. I thought it sounded like a piece of crap (loud). I was in the middle of raising my boys and buying toys etc, and towing a 22' fleetwood TT. The big block towed it well.



I later traded up to a 30ft 9K lbs Toyhauler and down to 30 mph on the grades and the smell of burnt transmission fluid as I rolled along. As I looked at the offerings in 99 from Ford, Dodge, and GM I didnt know anything about the CTD. When my neighbor had the hood up on his 94 B9 I was shocked at the size of it. It may be a six but it's a huge one.



It's pure luck I didnt buy a 99 7. 3 it was close. The 99 CTD I had was a good truck 215/420. To this day when people see the size of the 05 HPCR they had no idea of the size of it.



Mac

 

[HBarlow]

I'll confess to once being that ignorant also. 20 years ago I was still dumb enough to think V8s were powerful and six cylinders were weak but more fuel efficient. I began to notice the Dodge Rams when the new body style with big truck look was introduced in '94 then opened my mind to some of the things I read about the towing capability of the "little Cummins in-line six. "

 

[Mikey-KE7LBB]

I remember riding in my neighbors 89 W-250 when I was 11 years old and thinking to myself... This thing sounds a lot like my uncle's 72 KW!! I have wanted one ever since!



I think it was more of the diesel sound and the fact that his truck was a tank that would rip a building right off of it's foundation and that the engine was the same thing the big rigs had (just a bit smaller of course) was the deciding factor for me at age 11!! :-laf



I never needed a sales pitch about HP or TQ or who's truck could do what... I just knew from years of wishing, watching ,and learning that they could be built to do anything. I even had a few people that bought one after seeing what mine would do Cummins pretty much sells itself to those of us who have a couple brain cells to rub together :-laf



Sorry to all of the Mopar fans out there, but I bought a Cummins and it just happened to come with a Dodge :-laf

 

[bheiting]

I have an old "friend" who has been a Chevy truck salesman for 20 to 30 years. He once tried to sell me a Duramax. I laughed at him and told him he couldn't give me one. My comment led to an explanation of my reasons. He also thought 18 wheel OTR trucks had V8 engines just like his Duramax GMs because he had seen some with twin stacks. And he had driven big trucks for awhile when he was young.



There is no cure for stupid and it affects much of our population.

Harv, will you change your tune when the 1500s emerge with the V8 Cummins? Detroit Diesel produced some very good V8s from what I understand, but I'm sure the in line engines have prevailed for good reasons, especially torque.

 

[TFucili]

Harv, will you change your tune when the 1500s emerge with the V8 Cummins? Detroit Diesel produced some very good V8s from what I understand, but I'm sure the in line engines have prevailed for good reasons, especially torque.

I certainly won't speak for H. B. , but half-tons are play trucks, and that's what V-8s are for, so there is no contradiction that I can see. The two-cycle Detroits worked in any and all configurations, and are something of an engineering freak of nature. On the other hand, the "Fuel Pincher", 8. 2, 6. 2, 6. 5, etc. all fall into the "just another lump of crap" category as far as I am concerned.

 

[HBarlow]

Yep, TFucili wrote about what I would have said.

A 1/2 ton is a passenger vehicle. It will never be used for towing the huge and heavy loads our Rams are intended for and capable of.

The fundamental difference between inline six cylinder engines and V8s is where they produce torque. That is the primary reason among many reasons why the Cummins ISB engines used in our Rams stands head and shoulders above the competition.

As TFucili stated above, the V8 diesel and a 1/2 ton grocery getter will be a good match.

 

[BIGNASTY]

There are not as many any more but there were some class 8 trucks that used 3408 cats,8V92,VT903,3208 even some V12s just not as good as the inline 6

 

[TFucili]

There are not as many any more but there were some class 8 trucks that used 3408 cats,8V92,VT903,3208 even some V12s just not as good as the inline 6

That's all true, but, Detroit two-strokes aside, the 3208 and others were regarded as throw away motors even in their heyday. Shoot, there were quite a few of those enormous GMC gas V-6s around, but that doesn't mean they were any good.

 

[rscurtis]

The GMC V-6 truck engines were excellent- until they made the Toro Flow diesel out of it.

 

[BIGNASTY]

That's all true, but, Detroit two-strokes aside, the 3208 and others were regarded as throw away motors even in their heyday. Shoot, there were quite a few of those enormous GMC gas V-6s around, but that doesn't mean they were any good.

That may be true but I will argue that the 3408 was one of the best big bore truck eng. for power. It was just SO heavy and COST at rebuild was a issue that it wasn't real good in trucking. The weight issue was one problem I had with the 1693 but I knew allot of truck scale bypass routes, 8V92 was good for oil change just spin on new filter and keep adding.

 

[richardcoxid]

Well, gentlemen I enjoyed and appreciate all your comments! I still believe that Dodge (now Ram) is missing out on some very good and POINTED advertising opportunities that would show the advantages of the inline 6 Cummins vs. the V8 of the competition.



Richard