Cummins, inc. Officially recommends power service® diesel kleen +cetane and diesel fu

[cerberusiam]

So it has been several months now since Cummins endorsed Diesel Kleen. Has anyone done any comparisons or further research on this?

Great question, now, how would you suggest any more quantifiable testing be done? All the testing that can be done is on a fuel mix and ISO standards for lubricity, scar, and wear. Mean absolutely nothing to anything other than the test because the diesel fuel quality varies so much. What looks good on paper for the testing fuel may not work so well in another part for the country at any given time. You would have to mix and test every tank to get a consistent quality using every combination possible of these additives, run it in a separate vehicle for at least 300k for every potential mix, THEN try to standardize the WHAT and the HOW of results measurement. In short, not gonna happen cuz there is no standard to determine what running a good mix of fuel will result in.


By the results of the tests run for lubricity PS is not the best with the recommended dosage BUT what about a higher dosage in the fuel? Not tested so no info to say one way or another. PS is a good fuel conditioner and cleaner, that is clear form the MSDS and general experience. How about adding some 2SO to a higher than recommended dosage of PS? How does it then score on lubricity and wear tests plus fuel quality? Again, no info as it is BIG project to just test the basics.


Then, how does any given additive package work in YOUR truck, YOUR fuel, YOUR usage? That is what will be important and there is simply no way to test and quantify ANYTHING about that scenario, too many variables. Testing will your job as it won't apply anywhere else. Pick a mix, run it for 20k, track your mpg, then pull an injector and look at the tips for carbon build up or damage. Rinse and repeat with no additive and note the results. Rinse and repeat with another additive package for comparison. After tracking the pertinent factors and do some base checking for 100k you are ready to make a determination if anything you tried made a material difference and was worth the cost, and it will still just be your OPINION because the measurable standards for results are not quantified. If you findings don't agree with the published test or someone else's opinions, keep it to yourself cuz you WILL offend someone.


If all the tests and claims on all the products for fuel conditioning, lubricity, etc., were printed out on paper you would have a BIG pile of fire starter and not much else. The only results that matter are what YOU get.

 

[TCDiesel]

Cerb, Your comment offends Me ..Heeehee, You are correct Guy's like Me and you will let our Banks Accounts do the talking ...Today the educational system is More broken down than filter/Additive info..its gotta be good as long as it don't offend someone .facts and truths have No bearing with millions of Americans , they will reason on feelings...The instant someone reasons on the feeling platform prepare your wallet to be suck up if you listen to it/them, Than you will be feeling like ^%$^&&**( and nothing go's good after that. Newsa comment without NO facts to support to were you get your fuel, How about pickup the Phone during your 1 Hr Break form Teaching and makes some calls to the Chemist at you local refinery, You may find them very knowledgeable and learn something to pass on. I know this requires effort and that probably offensive to you.

 

[Newsa]

Cerb, Your comment offends Me ..Heeehee, You are correct Guy's like Me and you will let our Banks Accounts do the talking ...Today the educational system is More broken down than filter/Additive info..its gotta be good as long as it don't offend someone .facts and truths have No bearing with millions of Americans , they will reason on feelings...The instant someone reasons on the feeling platform prepare your wallet to be suck up if you listen to it/them, Than you will be feeling like ^%$^&&**( and nothing go's good after that. Newsa comment without NO facts to support to were you get your fuel, How about pickup the Phone during your 1 Hr Break form Teaching and makes some calls to the Chemist at you local refinery, You may find them very knowledgeable and learn something to pass on. I know this requires effort and that probably offensive to you.

TC,

Here is where my fuel comes from.
http://www.porteverglades.net/cargo/petroleum/from-tanker-to-gas-tank/
I invite you to try to find someone at this Port facility who can telk you which refineries the fuel comes from. It is a seaport next to the Hollywood Fort Lauderdale international airport.
In fact, I really doubt that they even keep fuel from different refinery sources separated.
I don't think I have received bad fuel yet. But I like to add lubricity. I was very excited to be able to use some b20 earlier this month because of it's natural lubricity.
B20 is not available here, so I occasionally add some lubricity additive (optilube, stanadyne, or penray). Really not impressed with the power service and you probably get what you pay for with fuel additive whether you don't use a proven additive or whether you use a cheap one like Power Service.

I don't use an additive with every tank. I use one in cold weather when traveling north in the winter. And I use an additive every month or 2 for lubricity. And I occasionally use a biocide about once every 6 months.

 

[Newsa]

Cerb, Your comment offends Me ..Heeehee, You are correct Guy's like Me and you will let our Banks Accounts do the talking ...Today the educational system is More broken down than filter/Additive info..its gotta be good as long as it don't offend someone .facts and truths have No bearing with millions of Americans , they will reason on feelings...The instant someone reasons on the feeling platform prepare your wallet to be suck up if you listen to it/them, Than you will be feeling like ^%$^&&**( and nothing go's good after that. Newsa comment without NO facts to support to were you get your fuel, How about pickup the Phone during your 1 Hr Break form Teaching and makes some calls to the Chemist at you local refinery, You may find them very knowledgeable and learn something to pass on. I know this requires effort and that probably offensive to you.

TC,

Here is where my fuel comes from.
http://www.porteverglades.net/cargo/petroleum/from-tanker-to-gas-tank/
I invite you to try to find someone at this Port facility who can telk you which refineries the fuel comes from. It is a seaport next to the Hollywood Fort Lauderdale international airport.
In fact, I really doubt that they even keep fuel from different refinery sources separated.
I don't think I have received bad fuel yet. But I like to add lubricity. I was very excited to be able to use some b20 earlier this month because of it's natural lubricity.
B20 is not available here, so I occasionally add some lubricity additive (optilube, stanadyne, or penray). Really not impressed with the power service and you probably get what you pay for with fuel additive whether you don't use a proven additive or whether you use a cheap one like Power Service.

I don't use an additive with every tank. I use one in cold weather when traveling north in the winter. And I use an additive every month or 2 for lubricity. And I occasionally use a biocide about once every 6 months.

 

[TCDiesel]

I will investigate...We have Magellan Here in Roseville. and many stations buy form there racks...every Drop sheet I've seen has place of Origin and Type. Artic Diesel, Blended X%, B x%, and Clear #2. Plus its Cetane ratings. MN has laws on mandatory requirements but drop all wintered standards, Ugh.

 

[geoffincarlsbad]

Hi, new to the forum, having just picked up a 2018 2500 RAM Longhorn Laramie. Will these products have any affect on any standard warranty? I am all about additives and helping keep my motors clean and efficient, but no sure about how the manufacturers warranty may be affected by the use of these additives. Any advice or counsel?

 

[Newsa]

I would say even the diesel you buy at the station would have an effect on your standard Power train warranty. So yes, the def, the diesel and the additives could all affect your standard Power train warranty.

If you unknowingly pump substandard fuel into your tank, FCA could say it is not covered.
Sometimes they will cover it apparently, but they Don't have to if it is not a manufacturer defect. I think the more expensive additives (more reputable brands) do a good job of quality control. And would not sell something that would harm your engine. The additives probably Don't do EVERYTHING they purport to do. But they do add lubricity and some might actually clean.

Biodiesel cleans and lubricates. But it is hygroscopic (takes moisture out of the air), susceptible to microbe growth, and doesn't evaporate from your oil sump as easily as petrodiesel.

Every thing you put in your truck has a risk, a benefit, and a possible drawback.

 

[cerberusiam]

Cummins is endorsing PS and Dodge\Cummins\Bosch both publish a fuel spec that is directly affected by the additives so it is a good assumption PS, at least, should not void any warranty but who knows about what some self styled chemist in a dealership will pull out of his backside. As far as that goes, no telling what a field rep will come up with either. On the flip side, just putting bad diesel in your tank is going to void the warranty and there is no additive that will address a water and garbage soaked load of fuel. Keep your receipts and not mileage, pull you own fuel sample to test and\or provide to the servicing fuel vendor if asked. A smart phone recording with date and time stamp of a sample taken at a dealership is some hard evidence to present. Basically if you can prove you got bad fuel from a specific station you have a lot of leverage to get them to pay for it if Dodge bails on warranty. Protect yourself will filters, additives, and documentation and you will have a better chance of resolving issues.


The correct term is hygroscopic and ULSD is almost as bad as bio when it comes to that, much worse than any other refinement in the past. ULSD will entrain water and draw free water by itself in high humidity conditions hence the better filtration offered from the factory. Free water is the enemy and that is what good filters will address, entrained water is much harder to deal with but is in much smaller amounts. The constant polishing\heating\cooling in the CR fuel systems does a pretty good job of filtering out both types of water, but, downside is the increase in asphaltenes being cooked out. Clean fuel source and good filters will suffice for water but you need a cleaning additive and conditioner to address cetane and asphaltenes. Additives that address water usually contain a lot of free alcohol and that is not the best in a close tolerance system. Essentially choosing an additive for water handling capabilities is a waste of time as enough water to cause issues will not be addressed by the typical amounts recommended, only filtration and sourcing are effective. An additive package needs to concentrate on cleaning, conditioning, and lubrication while minimizing water absorption. There is no one magic source, it is a combination of things that will provide best results.

 

[Newsa]

The correct term is hygroscopic .

Yeah, I realized I misspelled it about the same time you did and corrected it

 

[Newsa]

Hi, new to the forum, having just picked up a 2018 2500 RAM Longhorn Laramie. Will these products have any affect on any standard warranty? I am all about additives and helping keep my motors clean and efficient, but no sure about how the manufacturers warranty may be affected by the use of these additives. Any advice or counsel?

Just avoid anything with alcohol in it.

 

[Cummins12V98]

Hi, new to the forum, having just picked up a 2018 2500 RAM Longhorn Laramie. Will these products have any affect on any standard warranty? I am all about additives and helping keep my motors clean and efficient, but no sure about how the manufacturers warranty may be affected by the use of these additives. Any advice or counsel?

Change oil and filters on time with Mopar or FleetGuard products drive with TH and EB engaged and enjoy the hell out of the truck.

 

[spoon059]

I imagine it has to do with endorsement money.

There is no other reason at all. Nothing changed about the engine or diesel quality. The only thing that changed was a corporate promotion that paid Cummins for the recommendation. To each their own about additives. We only use additives on our 25 year old diesel tractor because it wasn't designed to work on ULSD.

 

[Killgore]

Well, nobody's holding a gun at anybody's head, so I would interpret that as a green light to do what you want. But, I seriously doubt that anybody at Cummins got a free lunch from some high-stepper from Power Service. Oh! Things have changed since I retired. The days of free lunches, cash under the table, and other goodies are now gone thanks to the government, willies that couldn't compete in a man's world, and purchasing agents who held out their hands and made the game too obvious.

 

[cerberusiam]

There is no other reason at all. Nothing changed about the engine or diesel quality. To each their own about additives. We only use additives on our 25 year old diesel tractor because it wasn't designed to work on ULSD.

That pretty defines why all the existing test information means nothing and future ones useless, the results simply fall on deaf ears. 4 short sentences destroy any hope of a useful dialogue and clear understanding. Discussions simply devolve into a battle over concepts, obfuscation of the content becomes just words with no meaning.

Cummins makes its recommendations on more than a microcosm of information and emotional knee jerk reactions, in the big picture that is about as reliable a source as there is.

 

[jhenderson]

That pretty defines why all the existing test information means nothing and future ones useless, the results simply fall on deaf ears. 4 short sentences destroy any hope of a useful dialogue and clear understanding. Discussions simply devolve into a battle over concepts, obfuscation of the content becomes just words with no meaning.

Cummins makes its recommendations on more than a microcosm of information and emotional knee jerk reactions, in the big picture that is about as reliable a source as there is.

You are correct, to a point. Cummins has tested and come to the conclusion it doesn't hurt and in some cases may well help. The rub comes when you imply there's no quid pro quo. Cummins also endorses Valvoline Premium Blue. Does that mean other oils don't meet or exceed the spec? Cash doesn't have to trade hands. Prominent marketing space at dealers parts depts. Special pricing and advertising $$ spent by P.S. listing the Cummins dealer as source for purchase, etc. Which manufacturer of a qualified product ( in this case we can assume P.S. submitted samples to Cummins for their own testing)offers the best dealer and ad package.It all comes into play.

 

[Killgore]

As mentioned numerous times, the MSDS' of the more popular additives contain roughly the same ingredients, varying only in the formulated percentages. Okay, so PS and Cummins have established a business relationship, and Valvoline and Cummins work together more closely than say Cummins and Quaker State. That working relationship to me means that if a question ever arises, or a potential problem raises it's head, or future mandated changes need to be discussed, Bill can call Joe and tell him to be in a meeting scheduled for 2PM, etc., and guess what? He'll be there. Developing a working relationship is the paramount goal of any sales and marketing endeavor. Taking advantage, or utilizing that relationship is one of the benefits of buying from a specific or recommended supplier. I would like to think Cummins' decision was based on something more than a hot pastrami sandwich, LOL.

 

[spoon059]

That pretty defines why all the existing test information means nothing and future ones useless, the results simply fall on deaf ears. 4 short sentences destroy any hope of a useful dialogue and clear understanding. Discussions simply devolve into a battle over concepts, obfuscation of the content becomes just words with no meaning.

Cummins makes its recommendations on more than a microcosm of information and emotional knee jerk reactions, in the big picture that is about as reliable a source as there is.

Respectfully, do you have anything to show that the Cummins engine cannot safely run on regular diesel? Cummins doesn't REQUIRE its use, they just said that approve it. If there was a NEED for this additive, wouldn't Cummins either change something in the engine or demand usage of this product?

As it stands now, Cummins warrantees this engine for 100,000 miles using regular ULSD fuel. They don't increase the warranty time or mileage if you use this additive. To me, this is just like taking a multivitamin every day. Some people swear by it, some people think its a waste of money. The vitamin manufacturer makes all kinds of claims of the benefits, none of which are confirmed by the FDA. My health insurance and life insurance costs don't decrease as the result of taking multivitamins, nor do they increase if I don't take them.

Like I said before, "To each their own". I am not disparaging additives, I am simply giving my opinion which was formed based upon the information provided to me. If you have new information that I haven't seen, I would love to educate myself and update my opinion on the matter. Until then, you are criticizing me for my personal opinion without any basis of knowledge to support yours.

 

[Killgore]

Spoon, I don't think he is criticizing you or telling you that you are making a mistake to not use it. This discussion has been beat back and forth many times by many different people, some who are recognized authorities in their respective fields. And, of course you are free to do and think as you please. Cerb, is merely pointing out the variables are many and varied, much of it brought about by a crappo fuel that is being sold in many areas without enforced standards.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/259953-Fuel-additives?p=2526166#post2526166

 

[spoon059]

Perhaps you are correct. When I read his comments about "4 short sentences destroy any hope of a useful dialogue and clear understanding" it sure appeared to be a direct attack on my 4 sentence post. I guess it is possible I misread his intent though.

 

[jhenderson]

As mentioned numerous times, the MSDS' of the more popular additives contain roughly the same ingredients, varying only in the formulated percentages. Okay, so PS and Cummins have established a business relationship, and Valvoline and Cummins work together more closely than say Cummins and Quaker State. That working relationship to me means that if a question ever arises, or a potential problem raises it's head, or future mandated changes need to be discussed, Bill can call Joe and tell him to be in a meeting scheduled for 2PM, etc., and guess what? He'll be there. Developing a working relationship is the paramount goal of any sales and marketing endeavor. Taking advantage, or utilizing that relationship is one of the benefits of buying from a specific or recommended supplier. I would like to think Cummins' decision was based on something more than a hot pastrami sandwich, LOL.

Modern marketing and advertising budgets amount to a whole lot more than a sandwich. Again, do you think an engine problem that would be dealt with by the manufacturer if Premium Blue was used, would be denied if the customer used another brand that met or exceeded specs?