CUMMINS RESPONDS to Dowl Pin Problem!

[mikepvg]

Don't know what happened to yesterday's thread, but here it is again. I'm very encouraged by Cummins response & we now know when the "blind hole" correction has been production line implemented.

<hr>
Thanks very much for your email messages on the Dodge ISB gear cover dowel pin.

We have also been reading the TDR messages that customers have been sending in on the subject and a review the dowel pin issue has been done by Cummins. This is how we know the issue today:

The timing pin diameter from the supplier and the hole drilled for the pin, are designed to be 'press fit' dimensions. In some rare cases, the supplied timing pin dimension and the drilled hole dimension, may not provide the correct 'press fit'. During assembly line manufacturing, it is impossible to determine the amount of 'press fit' between the pin and the drilled hole, once the pin is installed into the bore.

A few of the pins have not had the correct 'press fit' in the drilled hole and have worked out of the hole. This does cause extensive damage to the gears and gear cover. The percentage of failure is very, very low and did not justify a major campaign of all engines. If an unexpected failure should occur during the warranty period of the engine, the repair will be handled under normal warranty practices.

Early in 1998 the gear cover was changed to a 'blind hole' design, which would not let the dowel pin move out of the bore. If you have a great fear of this pin coming out, we suggest discussing this issue with your local Dodge dealer or Cummins distributor, to determine the appropriate action in each situation.

The pin itself can be replaced if desired or Locktite can be used to hold it in place, without having to replace the pin or gear housing assembly.

Inspection and securing of the timing pin:

1. Remove the damper, pulley and gear cover from front of engine.
2. Tap on the dowel pin with a flat punch to insure that it is seated in the bore.
3. Clean all the oil from area with solvent and dry completely.
4. Apply some wicking type Locktite on the dowel pin and housing and let the Locktite cure.
5. Reinstall the cover with a new seal and gasket.
6. Reinstall damper and pulley.

We hope this helps you understand the dowel issue better.

Thank you for your interest in Cummins power or products. Please let us know if you need assistance in locating the nearest Cummins-authorized distributor or dealer. Please feel free to use our International Dealer Locator: (http://www.cummins.com/partserv/intro.html) found on the Customer Assistance page of the Cummins website (www.cummins.com).

Let us know if have other questions, or if away from your computer, feel free to call us toll free at 1-800-DIESELS (343-7357).

Regards,
--
Powermaster
Customer Assistance Center
Cummins Inc.
Email: powermaster@cummins.com
Ref: CAC ID
<hr>

My response to the above Cummins' email is as follows:
> Thank you very much for responding to my email & supplying the technical
> advice.
> That is light years ahead of not acknowledging the issue & will probably
> save many a Cummins owner some mighty big repair bills & is a very positive
> step in nuturing Cummins loyalty.
>
> However, I not sure if I understand Cummins' stance of "Out of warranty=Out
> of luck".
> I will post it immediately on the TDR site for all to read & appreciate.
>
> Personally, I have implemented a similiar type of "fix" (like many others) &
> have fabricated a "washer-tab" style of blocking cover to cover the dowl pin
> which would prevent it from backing out. This washer-tab is held in place by
> the immediately adjacent bolt to the dowl pin.
> Does Cummins have any objections or technical comments on this method?
>
> Many more Cummins owners are drilling a hole in the actual timing case
> adjacent to the dowl pin & tapping in a set screw to "block" or "hold" the
> dowl pin in place. This method is more popular due to the fact that the
> timing cover does not have to be removed. Of course there is a possibility
> (with this method) to contaminate the inside of the timing gears with
> aluminum from the drilling.
> Does Cummins have any objections or technical comments on this method?
>
> Your help is greatly appreciated!
> Mike Nowicki


------------------
94 2500HD 4X4 5sp w/GearVendors O. D. 4:10 L. S. D. , K&N Oval w/ Pre-Filter, Straight Exhaust, Geno's Fumotovalve, AW-Direct Idle Controller, DiPricol Boost/Pyro/Fuel w/ Kevlar BSS line, Mag-Hytec Rear, 126K miles. Halon Protected, NRA Member. V1=Anti-"pinch" protection. KDP 125,700-NM-WT Insurance

 

[R.ebel]

Mikepvg,

Nice job on getting the info regarding on when the problem was corrected by Cummins!



To bad the customer service guy/gal doesn't know the difference between the dowel pin or timming pin?????



Rebel #ad

 

[PROBE]

Mikepvg, I congradulate you on receiving an answer/reply from Cummins. Following is a letter I sent to the CEO of Diamler Chrysler with the help of the online service of planetfeedback.com

==============================================

May 23, 2001


TO:
Dr. Dieter Zetsche, CEO
Daimler Chrysler USA
Daimler Chrysler Customer Service Center
P. O. Box 21-8004
Auburn Hills, MI 48321-8004

FROM:
Dave Probert
103 Perry Dr
Dresden, ME 04342

RE: PLANETFEEDBACK REFERENCE NUMBER 732432

Dear Dr. Zetsche,

I hope you can help me. I have a complaint I'd like to register with you about the reliability of a truck made by Daimler Chrysler USA. The VIN (vehicle identification number) is 1b7kf26c7rs689671.

In 1995 I purchased a 1994 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 with the Cummins Turbo Diesel. I specificlly choose the Cummins for it's name and repetation. I had the 5 year 100,000 mile waranty and now have approximately 124,000 on the truck.
A couple of months ago it developed an oil leak somewhere in the front of the engine and I was not able to locate it. Not wanting to tie the truck up in the middle of winter, I choose to let it go until better weather. Two weeks ago I took it to Blouins Motors, Agusta, Maine, the dealer I had purchased it from, to see where the oil leak was coming from. They found that the timing housing was cracked and after many hours of tearing into the motor found that one of the two dowel pins, used for precise alignment of the housing, had dropped out and into the many gears that are in the timeing housing causing the break.
The other dowel pin could not come out because of a boss cast into the housing and having a "blind" hole drilled in it. The dowel pin that can and did come out has a "though" hole drilled in the housing allowing the pin to drop out a causing severe damage.
The repair was extensive and cost over 25 hours of labor and the total bill was $2,311! The dealer said that because the truck had gone over the 100,000 mile waranty there was no way I could get any compensation from Dodge or Cummins.

After many hours of investigation, I found that this is NOT a unusal circumstance. There are many people over the country having to deal with this very same problem.

I feel that it is a design flaw and that Dodge or Cummins should be responsible for at least some of the cost for the folks that are out of their waranty period.

Since I have purchased cars from you in the past, I think my complaint deserves your full attention. As a result of this, I don't know whether I will ever buy a truck from you in the future, and I don't know whether I can recommend your trucks to people I know now.

Here's what I would like to see you do to provide resolution: Any satisfaction in the form of compensation of the $2,311 repair bill would be greatly appreciated.


Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter. I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Sincerely,
pondpro@agate.net

==============================================

So far there has been no response #ad
!
When or if there is I will be sure to post it as well so we can hear what Corproate thinks about their customers.

Later, Probe

------------------
'94 RAM 2500 W/CUMMINS 5. 9... BANKS POWERPAC... K&N AIR FILTER... PRIMO OIL REFINER... AMSOIL SERIES 3000... . KILLER DOWEL PIN REMOVED!!

 

[Hammer]

Oh YEH,,As I now ROLL around the floor after reading the true answer you've all been waiting for,,GIVE ME A FRIGGIN BREAK HERE!!,,Changed in the EARLY model 98's,,I seem to detect a MAJOR flaw here,,See mine is a late 98 as far as 12 valves are concerned(one of the last out by the numbers according to dealer),,Now I do realize they DID switch over engines in mid year here,,So IF they claim to have repaired the problem in EARLY year WHY has mine failed not once,BUT TWICE???Any idea's??,,See what we have here is a proto-typical bulls*%# answer almost anyone HIDING a problem would want to do,,THE EXACT same answers I have recieved in letters I have sent myself,,I've done all I'm going to do,not wasting my time on these fools again,its just a shame they want our money as consumers and are willing to do nothing to help(unless yours breaks during a warranty) and leaves ALL those after in the dark with their wallets hurting,,Love my Dodge and my Cummins,but,I'd say BOTH of their warranties are only to benefit themselves and NOT the consumers... ... ... .

------------------
98, Flame Red, Quad Cab, 2500, 4x4, 5spd, Autometer and Cyberdyne gauges,Edelbrock Performer IAS shocks,TST#10 plate,16cm housing, B-D Exhaust Brake,Timing Advanced,K&N,Totally Amsoiled,Cat Muffler and Silencer ring ALL M. I. A. ,A BOMBING IN THE PROCESS!!

 

[KatDiesel]

I emailed Cummins inquiring about the same thing just for grins and I basically recieved the same reply as above... . word for word.

 

[Sled Puller]

And people still wonder why ordinary citizens go "POSTAL"


Gene

------------------
CPFF's Dowell Pin Jig Available in GLTDR Region! 1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 "One Piece At A Time" Bombed & Amsoiled. Amsoil Executive Direct Jobber, Member of: NRA Business Alliance, GLTDR, WANTED: Wrecked Dodges.
www.awdist.com

 

[Dieselnerd]

They never even bothered to answer my letter. I had identified myself as a TDR member so I suppose they figured I was part of the "great plot" to send them emails about their problem. I think I'll send another asking how long I have to wait for an answer.

 

[Hammer]

POSTAL,EH!!!,,MMMMM,,Could be Gene,,Just elevates my 1/2 Italian and 1/2 Irish blood pressure to a point where I look like a volcano from the neck up,waiting for the big one,,I'm CERTAIN if we all put our letters from Cummins on the same table they are EXACT copies of each other,,After my problems I've vowed not to let them beat me at their game,,I'll keep the war drums thumping till they acknowledge the problem exsists and rectifies it FOR ALL,,Every owner needs to be wary of this problem and I certainly feel for those who have had to endure the fix out of their own pockets,,So where do we go next???,,What course do we take??,,Seems like only one way to fix it, if they will not acknowledge the problem,is a lawsuit,class action style,,All we want here is to have our beloved Cummins Rams to be inspected and repaired if they have the faulty cover,,Since they want to baffle us with BullS^$@,maybe we need to turn up the wick a little,,Been thinking about this for a long time and its time for Dodge and Cummins to show us some RESPECT here,no to be treated as the numbers on their books they make us out to be,BUT AS THE CONSUMERS WHO MAKE THEIR PAYCHECKS AND WALLETS FATTER,,You know and I know that word of mouth HAS killed many a business,if they are not carefull here it could happen,,I only wish we can get some PROPER resoulution to this WITHOUT lawyers,but,I do not feel that will happen... ... ...

------------------
98, Flame Red, Quad Cab, 2500, 4x4, 5spd, Autometer and Cyberdyne gauges,Edelbrock Performer IAS shocks,TST#10 plate,16cm housing, B-D Exhaust Brake,Timing Advanced,K&N,Totally Amsoiled,Cat Muffler and Silencer ring ALL M. I. A. ,A BOMBING IN THE PROCESS!!

 

[danandamy]

As much as I dislike the whole suing culture we have in this country nowdays, I have to admit that if this problem crops up on either one of my Rams I will sue their a$$es to get it fixed. It is a well documented design flaw and it doesn't matter if it's out of warranty or not. If the motor has a catastrophic failure do to the fact that they made a mistake during the assembly process, there is no way they can NOT be liable. This is different than just a poor design. If you could sue for that, every 6. 5 Chevy owner would have been in court long ago #ad
This was an admitted mistake on their part, ie: some of them were drilled to the wrong spec. , thus they are liable. Hope I never find out if this holds true or not but like I said, if I drop a pin and have a big engine failure, we WILL find out.

Daniel

 

[mikepvg]

Here is an email I received from a disgruntled Cummins owner:

<hr>
> Thanks for the attachment as requested. I am trying for the updated
> cover at their expense. If not, at least an official letter stating
> that either Dodge or Cummins will cover repairs if it was to fall out
> after the warranty period. I know that it will be an up hill battle to
> get either one. I feel that there may be some legal liability by
> Cummins since they have admitted to their error and that it is "causing
> extensive damage". We bought the engine for service and long life ...
> not to self-destruct.
> The process will serve to establish a good paper trail of the problem
> and efforts to get it corrected even while under warranty. If I get a
> "no" to the two above fixes it will then be time for a legal review as
> to where I stand. At that point, I am thinking about putting signs on
> my truck doors that will state something like:
> CAUTION!
> AT ANY MOMENT THIS ENGINE MAY SELF-DESTRUCT
> FROM ALIGNMENT DOWEL PIN PROBLEM.
> CORRECTIVE ACTION REFUSED BY DODGE AND CUMMINS.
> LIKE TO GAMBLE ... BUY THIS CUMMINS!
>
> Caution will be one big bold word across the top in red and the last
> line will also be in red. I will then send pictures of same to Cummins
> along with a planned routed through several states and parts of Canada
> for about 3-5 months. You see I am retired and will be doing some
> traveling. It would be much easier to do one of the fix jobs than to
> try and force the issue. However, the fix belongs to Dodge and Cummins
> and not to us. Cummins should cover the bill in my opinion. Anyway, I
> accept that I may have to do the job myself when all is said and done.
> If you see a white 96,3500,4x2, with the above signs, it just might be
> me.
XXXX
<hr>

C'mon you guys.
What kinda cr#$ is going thru y'all minds?

If u know about the KDP problem & it self destructs, SHAME ON YOU!

If u DON'T know about it & it self destructs, SHAME ON CUMMINS!

BUT, lets get real.
LEGALLY, Cummins has no obligation to fix the KDP problem AFTER warranty!

It is only the "GOOD WILL" that Cummins would wish to generate that motivate them to do so! This "good will" can be invaluable & very few Co's or CEO's see this but see the bottom line & their LARGE bonuses for doing so. Blame it on American Corporate Culture. I'd bet that most Cummins employees & engineers feel the same way & are very proud of their product.

W/ all the "war" attitudes around here, its no wonder you see limited cooperation from Cummins or any Company in this unbelieveably litigious atmosphere we have to endure.
Ya thats a good idea. Lets put Cummins out of business & lets all drive friggin Durapads or Powerchokes. Brilliant!

Look, the bottom line is Cummins IS the premier engine manufacturer & personally I like it very much in the Dodge application. Yes, it is not w/o its little problems but what engineering project is w/o its share of problems??? The info age is here & these problems will never go unnoticed & be virtually unknown & be buried like in the past. I did months of research & reading before I purchased my CTD. I knew NOTHING regarding diesels & Light Duty Trucks. It was very easy to get "educated" & to ascertain that the CTD in a Dodge was the very best available & has the least amount of problems & what problems it does have are of a DIY fixable nature.

If u notice, our trucks have parts on them made all over the world. Just try & calculate the complex logistics of putting such a truck on the market! Then the OEM has no time to fine tune it & work the bugs out, because of every-changing EPA regulations. I would imagine redesigning & re-engineering starts before the "old" design evens hits production. Why did you think the awesome 12v w/ P7100 pump had only a 4. 5 year production? Then take into account everyone wanting something for nothing & the sue happy ("trigger happy" comes to mind) nature of people. What a mess.

Yes, I think Cummins should stand up to any design problems like the KDP but I'm not gonna cry about it, since I in fact do know about it (thanks to the TDR!) & I fixed it for $50. Whoop-de-do! Sure I'd be bummed if it self-destructed due to the KDP but I still think I would be better off then owning the competion's products.

People, we are gonna get more flys w/ honey than w/ vinegar.
Why don't we try a novel approach to this?
Why don't we HELP Cummins (and ourselves) w/ REAL statistics & technical-mechanical ideas & approaches to the various "fixes" the intelligent people of TDR come up with & present this info in a technical & scientific manner (like in a valid research paper).
What? Establish a relationship w/ Cummins? Hmmm...
In other words lets get PROFESSIONAL & develop the technical respect the TDR deserves.
I'll bet the TDR was not invisioned to put the screws on Cummins or any other manufacturer but to help everyone involved.
Its NOT us against them.
We are all in this together.
#ad

Mike

 

[Bill Littlefield]

Why don't we HELP Cummins (and ourselves) w/ REAL statistics & technical-mechanical ideas & approaches to the various "fixes" the intelligent people of TDR come up with & present this info in a technical & scientific manner (like in a valid research paper).
In other words lets get PROFESSIONAL & develop the technical respect the TDR deserves.

Mike,

I like your positive attitude and approach. I will volunteer to help compile and submit a paper. I am an engineer with an MBA and have written a few technical papers so I have some qualifications. Anyone else want to help?


------------------
Bill Littlefield
'95, 2500, 4x4, 5sp

 

[mikepvg]

There are many qualified TDR members here like Bill Littlefield who are willing to pitch in their precious time & knowledge or experience #ad


1) We need to develop a draft of proper questions to the answers we all seek. i. e. Whose KDP failed or not failed, when, on what model etc i. e. people w/ experience regarding failures: are these engines available for inspection or were they inspected & what did you find out--no supposition--just facts etc
All TDR member's questions could be used as a database & a team of TDR staff could select the most appropriate ones for survey presentation.

2) This draft of questions could be expanded to all other areas of concern. i. e. 5th gear nut or 6sp syncro problems etc. It would be cost effective to handle such a task in one mailing.

3) We need the TDR staff/magazine support & encompassing communication power (being able to contact each & every TDR member thru a separate mass mailing or accompaning "blow in" in one of the mag's qtr'y distributions). Unfortuantely only a fraction of TDR website members are active at any one time. This will be the only way to accomplish a non-biased statistical survey (to sample the entire TDR universe thru mailing).

Moderators? Whats the best way to go about this?

There should also be a TDR technical staff selected with the appropriate mechanical qualifications to described the homegrown TDR technical solutions for all TDR members to learn from & for technical comment from the various OEM's.

Information is power & we do not have it organized. The technical information available on the TDR website & willingness to help others is a major reason I chose my 2500HD, but one often has to really dig for it. Almost every problem or perf mod is documented somewhere. This could be organized & formated per each model year & easily sold by TDR for a profit which would enable more "booklets/pamplets/tech prob manuals". This kind of info would be very very powerful.

Examples not to follow: Too much quibbling on the Ford sites.

Good examples: Some of the organized info presented on the TDI site is amazing (i. e. there is a thread listing ALL distributors (the recommended engine oil for their application) for the entire USA including Canada! & this includes prices!)
i. e. u want to learn about diesel motor oil? do a search at this tdiclub.com to read some very technical threads & avoid alot of the sales hype & hysteria on the TDR site.
i. e. u want to see some real BIASED arguments regarding oil go to the boards at noria.com

Just thinking out loud!
#ad

Mike

 

[DBCooper]

Cummins says that it is impossible to check the press fit??!!! What a truck load of crap! Have these guys never heard of ball guages and calipers? Check the pin, and then check the hole. If they are both in spec, go for it, if not, don't sell the **** to the public. I can't believe they flat out lied in a published letter. Cummins might have a great engine, but thier public relations SUCKS!!!!!! Don't blow smoke up my *** and I won't drive my truck through your front door with the huge crack in the case... and the crappy trans,... and the sucky paint..... and the bad track bar,... . and the horrific panel alignment,... . and the non existant rear brake adjusters.

 

[Sled Puller]

Cummins sells this engine as '500,000 miles before major teardown", unless your dowel pin grenades it, which I consider $2000+ a major teardown.

 

[Hammer]

Since I'm a little late in posting here on this subject again I'll say this to you mikepvg,,My constant whining about this problem is what started all these dedicated owners to find out why nothing is out in print about the KDP problem,,I'll agree to a point about the after warranty deal,BUT,they(Cummins and Dodge)DO know about it and a KNOWN fix is out there from them(an updated front cover) so it is their responsibility to do the needed checks and repairs if needed NO MATTER what the milage,,See this is a problem that is and has been around for a while(NO you 24 valvers are not safe),,See my first one was in warranty at 32,503 miles and the SECOND one was at 54,965 miles,,First one was warranty work,since No mods had yet been done,,Second one was at MY expense,since they deemed that the torque plate was the TRUE culprit not the KDP,all $2900 worth of bill,,Now I'm not quibbling about paying for the second one,cause I know the deal on warranty and their self imposed grey areas,,BUT,The second one could have been prevented by installing the newer design cover they are using now,,I'd gladly show you copies of the bills,BOTH of them,the parts and labor involved is a staggering site for your eyes,,So in my eyes Dodge and Cummins will never get my help and to those who have had to endure this repair bill WITHOUT warranty help,I'd only hope they won't either,,Proffessional??,Why do we have to bend over and kiss their a**** to fix a problem they HAVE and DO know about and won't admit too,they are the SUPPOSED proffessional's(design and assembly)and we are consumers who buy their products for the known longevity,without that what do they have??,,Want a good example,Have Dodge and Cummins admit to their screw up and its plans to check the 5. 9 for problems and repairs if needed,Now thats a good example to me,,Ya know here's a great question for you,,With the other KNOWN Cummins front engine cover problems(M11,N14 two we use at work) and their big warranties(500,000)all being replaced for free, if defective,Do they(Cummins)think we are not as important as the heavy truck market??... . Think about it... I'd have to say yes to it... ... ...

 

[mikepvg]

Hammer



I do in fact absolutely agree with you.



UNFORTUNATELY, we CTD owners are in fact less important.

We are a poorly organized group with no direction, consumed with internal squabbles. The technological potential of this site is currently WASTED because of this fact. There are some great people in this group & I think its fantastic most are willing to help each other out etc. , (thats why I joined) but why not organize & really help each out?



Due to the litigous nature of society, its in Cummins best interest to not say anything & just let the cards fall where they may, however sad that it may be. I just was hoping to nourish the potential of a TDR-Cummins (professional?) relationship, which obviously would be in everyone's best interest.



Legally, IMHO we don't stand a chance to try & muscle them on an out of warranty situation so why waste our time & money? We must take another approach.



Mike