Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) cummins' response to lift pump failures

[Silver Bullet Ram]

check it out



Solution:

Gary - thanks for your email, but you're probably worrying about it too much - statistics have a way of getting skewed when assumptions are made based on Inet chat room dialog. Much as we love the TDR (TDR rally is here in Columbus this week and we're going to probably talk with customers about lift pumps!!), we have to caution against drawing generalizations from input to the web.



First of all, millions are not wondering, since we've provide only nearly one million Cummins engines to Dodge, and they were all hydramechanical fuel system until 1998. 5. Secondly, your question is better asked of Federal Mogul and Dodge than Cummins. If a given vehicle configuration mandates a lift pump, then the vehicle OEM spec's the pump and we source one that meets the need. We wish all of our suppliers were perfect and had stable, unchanging designs - but things change.



We don't know how many lift pumps you will need, or whether the one you have will last another 600,000 miles. Quality of fuel may also affect lift pump life. That is something you can do something about. Furthermore, we do not have the opportunity (nor the responsibility) to perform failure analysis on lift pumps made by other manufacturers and sourced by Cummins, and they wouldn't listen to us anyway. Their component is their responsibility; it is our responsibility to source component from reputable suppliers, and we endeavor to do so.



There have been some quality problems with the transfer/lift pumps in 1998. 5 trucks when the ISB first came out. We got with the supplier and overcame those problems. The failure rate was very low after the first group of engines or 1998. 5 trucks. Unfortunately, there were subsequent problems.

The annoyance of subsequent problems may be a bigger factor in the visibility of this issue than the actual number of failures. Again, you'll have to talk with Daimler-Chrysler about that.



The quality of the fuel the lift pump is pumping will affect lift pump life. The fuel filter is after the lift pump in fuel flow. Good clean quality fuel in the tank is a must for long lift pump life. We think the lift is doing a good job today.



Dodge's warranty on lift pump is 5 years or 100,000 miles on factory defects or workmanship.



For more information about the Dodge product, we suggest you contact

Dodge at "www.4adodge.com" or 1-800-992-1997 (DaimlerChrysler Customer Service).



Thank you for your interest in Cummins power or products. Please let us know if you ever need assistance in locating the nearest Cummins-authorized distributor or dealer. Please feel free to use our North American Dealer Locator (http://www.cummins.com/service_locator/index.cfm) found on the "service locator" link at the North America Cummins website (http://www.cummins.com/na/pages/en/index.cfm).



For service locations and Cummins Regional Offices outside North America, you can select the region of the world in which you have an interest at "http://www.cummins.com/index. cfm?changecountry=true", then click the "view distributor network" button.



Let us know if you have other questions, or if away from your computer (or you have a time-critical request that needs more urgent attention), feel free to call us (toll-free, from North America) at 1-800-DIESELS (343-7357), or 1-812-377-5000 (toll call, worldwide, ask for 800-DIESELS).



Regards,

--

Powermaster

Customer Assistance Center

Cummins, Inc.

Columbus, Indiana, USA

 

[Pit Bull]

Gary, kinda like the old saying. It's a recession when your neighbor is out of work and a depression when you are out of work. I think like you do that it is evident that we have a lift pump problem. I agree that it is DC's problem and of course our problem. It will not get much more attention as time goes by and the new engine comes on line and our warranties start going south. Good work getting a response form Cummins.

 

[Silver Bullet Ram]

well the way i see it, cummins chooses them to supply it, it comes with the motor and cummins eats the warranty on it, i would tend to hold cummins more reliable than dc... that is my own opinion.



Gary

 

[TowPro]

And I wish this part was true, but after fighting like hell, it was proven to me that my 98. 5 is only covered for 80K mile under the HD emissions warrante. Maybe I will call Dodge again tomorrow just for the hell of it, In case they changed there mind.

Originally posted by silverbulletram

check it out



Dodge's warranty on lift pump is 5 years or 100,000 miles on factory defects or workmanship.



--

Powermaster

Customer Assistance Center

Cummins, Inc.

Columbus, Indiana, USA

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by silverbulletram

well the way i see it, cummins chooses them to supply it, it comes with the motor and cummins eats the warranty on it, i would tend to hold cummins more reliable than dc... that is my own opinion.



Gary

Gary, from what I have read on the TDR Cummins does not eat the warranty on these engines it all goes to DC.

 

[Huff N Puff]

Since joining TDR I have noticed,alot of talk about lift pump failures. Remember all you guys that are bombing your trucks,that includes me,you are placing demands on these pumps,that were never intended. The other point is the pump pulls fuel thru a sock in the tank, a coarse screen,diesal being a dirty fuel, that can grow microbes can clog these screens. So don,t forget to treat the fuel, and if you seem to have alot of lift pump failures check your tank. Merv

 

[John Berger]

My . 25 on the lift pump issue with our trucks. The lift pumps were failing on quite a few truck owners on this board that didn't BOMB their trucks. I have a replacement pump on my truck, but not because my first pump failed. I wanted to do it to see if there was an increase in fuel pressure. There was. I will also tell you that I maybe added fuel injector cleaner to my tank two or three times in the first 49K miles. My original lift pump screen and the pump in general was clean with no buildup whatsoever that I could see. When I installed the Edge EZ and bigger injectors I noticed (this was on the factory supplied pump, not the new one) a low fuel pressure of 0-1 under WOT. Prior to these installs, I could get it to go down to 1-3 under WOT. It usually ran from 5-7 under normal throttle. (I installed my fuel pressure gauges last spring right before I BOMB'ed). The new lift pump brought me up to a steady(??)14-16 psi at the pump and after the filter. I monitored the pressure at the injection pump for awhile and the readings were the same as right after the filter, so to avoid using a dampener to keep my sender healthy, I moved it back to the outlet port on the filter canister. I still have the old lift pump and carry it with me on long trips as a spare. The thing that really stands out, to me at least is that there was zip, nada, zilch performance difference between the two pumps. My truck never missed a beat, unloaded or towing my trailer. I don't think the performance of the pumps are an issue as much as the location of the pumps and their utilization as a puller instead of a pusher. I realize I am not breaking any new ground here, nor is it my intent to come across as doing so, I just don't believe that the pumps are the heart of the problem when it comes to fuel supply in our trucks, at least as far as my experience with my truck is concerned. Maybe I'm just fortunate, but my neighbor who has a 1998. 5 2500 has never experienced problems with his pump and he is completely stock whereas another neighbor of mine who owns a 99 3500 had an injection pump grenade on him and he is stock, also. Another Turbo Diesel owner I know was completely stock and never had a problem with fuel delivery on his truck. I have never had a fuel system issue(knock on wood) either stock or after I BOMB'ed. I'm not sure where all of this will go, but I believe there are probably a lot of truck owners on this board who are in the same boat as I am. Maybe an ounce of prevention is really worth more than a pound of cure. Since 49K or when I started to BOMB, I add injector cleaner at every tankful, I got Ray T's modified banjo bolts installed and I monitor fuel pressure. I've always bought fuel from truck stops as well. Sorry for the long post. I hope at least some of it is helpful to anybody that reads it.

 

[Oxjockey]

Originally posted by Pit Bull





Gary, from what I have read on the TDR Cummins does not eat the warranty on these engines it all goes to DC. [

This is true. Dodge buys the motors without a warranty and warranties them themselves.



Bryan

 

[zimman20]

My . 02 worth on the subject.



1)Denial is not a river in Egypt.



2)Since CUMMINS designs these engines, whose fault is it that the LP is BEFORE the filter on these engines? Sounds like a design flaw!



3)Since CUMMINS SOURCES the pumps from Federal Mogul, Carter, et. al. then why WOULDN'T the manufacturer of these pumps be held accountable to the customer (CUMMINS)? They're

awfully cavalier about the crappy pumps IMO, guess once the engine's sold it's no longer their problem, but ours or DC's? That's mighty convenient for them, if you ask me. They get to sell us a replacement at $140. 00 a pop!



4)They had 'some' problems with the pumps after the introduction of the ISB in '98. 5? With a 'smattering' (my word) of problems after that, 'some' subsequent problems that are obviously being blown out of proportion due to the visibility of the issue? I THINK NOT! WE ARE STILL REPLACING THESE PUMPS IN WHOLESALE FASHION THRU THE MODEL YEAR 2001, if the posts on these boards are any indication! Also, let's be clear that we only KNOW about those as the population of Cummins owners that are represented on these boards allows, how many owners do not belong to the TDR and are not counted/do not know that their LP's are failed? It would seem to me you would look at the percentage of members on the TDR and compare it to the number of Cummins sold and extrapolate how many actual failures are happening and not counted.



5)What can we do about the quality of fuel, except to buy at stations that see a high volume of sales to ensure that we are getting the freshest fuel possible? Since the filter can't filter out the sludge because of the aforementioned 'design flaw', what are we to do as owners? Add treatments to the fuel at our cost? What is DC's policy on additives, I thought they said no to additives?



6)DC and Cummins could put their heads together to get a more realistic picture of the total number of LP failures, just by looking at the amount of LP's sold (Cummins) and the amount sold and installed (DC), warranty or not. This would give them a truer indication of the number of failures we are seeing, should they care to do so. If just the represented membership here was seeing these LP failures, it would STILL BE TOO MANY!



7)John Berger- You're all over the place! I can't figure out where you come down on this thing after reading your post several times. However, let's do this. You say you have friends both bombed and stock and they have both experienced LP and/or VP44 failures? Does that not speak volumes to you? As far as bombing hastening the failures of the LP's, I would say that I would expect the LP to provide the same amount of pressure at

all times, regardless of bombs; it's primary purpose is to provide fuel pressure to the injection pump, with the excess being utilized to provide lubrication to the injection pump to insure the longevity of the VP44. To summarize, the LP should provide as much pressure as is being called for, regardless of engine mods, or it's not doing its job. Can anyone explain to me if not, why not? Back to the fact that these LP's fail even without mods, the question arises that you state you know people who have had 'no problems'. Did they check pressures to verify that they had no problems? Or was it assumed they had no problems because you couldn't tell there was a problem due to any change in driveability/performance of the truck? THIS IS OFTEN THE STANCE THAT THE DEALERS TAKE AND IT'S NONSENSE! We know that there is usually no fall-off in performance or driveability, which is what makes this issue so insidious! You can have a failed LP and not know it! What it will do is shorten the life of the VP44, often at the expense of the owner because the warranty has expired by the time it pukes!



Bottom line is that these LP's fail without BOMBS, and that alone should state the case that there's either an engineering/design problem with the location of the pump or a problem with the pumps themselves, and neither Cummins nor DC is taking responsibility for it. THAT'S infuriating, as is the flat-out denial from both that there is no problem! We must all be imagining it!



Sorry for the long post, thanks for letting me vent. Also sorry if I offended anyone, not my intention, certainly not you, John. The above is a dissertation of my personal experience and research on the issue. In other words, just my . 02 worth.



zman

 

[Oxjockey]

Fuel

This will be the easy out for any of the manufacturers involved in the production of the RAMs. Because they know it's beyond their control, and reasonably beyond ours to dispute. This is why I'd asked about putting a filter pre-lift pump in an earlier thread. It's obviously a variable we cannot control in most cases otherwise.



I'd like to put one in and discect it a short while later to see if and how much it helped. I may start another thread askind about how to spec one out for the setup.



Bryan

 

[A. Brown]

the first time I changed one of these things, I was amazed how simple a gadget it was. Can't believe the manufacturer has so much trouple with reliability issues.

 

[John Berger]

Here I go again

Sorry for being "all over the place" I knew exactly what it was I was trying to say. After following the lift pump saga on the TDR for the last two years, I found Cummins response rather interesting as it coincided with some of the thoughts and experiences I've had relative to the lift pump issue. Considering the amount of 24 valve engines that have been sold since the 1998. 5 model year, what percentage of those trucks have experienced lift pump problems? How many of them were BOMB'ed? And at what point does Dodge say they've got a problem and issue a recall or at the least, put out a TSB? How many posts on the TDR are there expounding on good lift pump performance? There are over 12000 members here, but I'm betting not much more than 10 percent of them post regularly, if at all. And if a large percentage of those people were experiencing lift pump problems, I would expect that we might have had a recall on the pumps. Does that mean there is no problem? No, but evidently lift pump failures are not occurring enough for DC or Cummins to be convinced that there is a "serious" problem with the fuel delivery system. The common rail fuel system probably could be factored into their thinking as well, but as I understand that system, it's aimed more at noise reduction and emissions. Also, I did not say that my neighbor who had the VP44 grenade on him had that failure based on a faulty lift pump. His lift pump was not replaced under warranty and he has not experienced a recurring problem. Go figure that one. Now, I can play with statistics and in my experience with 24 valve powered trucks, I've seen a 75% success rate with the factory supplied lift pump. Like I said, I can only report what I've seen, and personally experienced. If that puts me all over the map, so be it. But I do sincerely apologize for any confusion I may have caused.



zimman20, based upon this post and my first, I figure you got about 44 cents worth of opinion left Use it wisely



If you want to know where I stand on the lift pumps, just look at my fuel system. I don't have those gauges or Ray's banjo bolts installed cuz they're cute and cuddly. Better safe than sorry.



I think this is one of the best threads ever on the TDR website.



https://www.turbodieselregister.com...ge=15&highlight=pumps fuel lines&pagenumber=1

 

[zimman20]

Like I said, the only representation of all owners we have are those who subscribe to the TDR and post regarding their problems. From what I've seen posted on these boards (and polls conducted by some members) the majority WHO HAVE CHECKED and not just assumed their LP was okay have found their pump to be failed/failing. It is the exception to find anyone (again, the polls bear this out) who is still on their original LP. In fact, the polls indicate that most failures happen in the 20-40k range, that motor ain't hardly broke in yet!



How many members here have advised that they have changed their LP multiple times already? Factor that into the mix when counting how many failures (known and that unknown percentage) there have been based on what we see on these boards. Does the LP become a maintenance item like Oil and belts, as some member have 'joked' here? Change it at such and such an interval whether it needs it or not? (ok- LOL)



I firmly believe the vast majority don't belong to the TDR and are therefore uninformed, helping to keep the number artificially low, thus shielding DC and Cummins from the negative press/p. r.



I also believe that the reason that DC has not issued a recall or TSB on the issue is that a)they haven't figured out how to fix it yet, or b)it would be prohibitively costly to do so. They will have to be forced into it, and I don't know how such a process gets started.



Does the NTSB have to get a boatload of complaints about a specific issue before they act? The BBB? Who? Why would anyone believe that DC would act in our best interest to resolve this issue unless forced to do so by a government entity?



Okay, I think I'm done now!!





zman

 

[Rockcrusher]

The name on the truck is Dodge, not Cummins, not Carter, not Fedral Mogul, so the bottom line is, the "buck stops with DC".

It should be their responsibilty, but of course its like pulling teeth out of a chicken to get any manufacture to own up to problems.

we could all bug Clark Howard and get him to take action

My. 02

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by zimman20



I firmly believe the vast majority don't belong to the TDR and are therefore uninformed, helping to keep the number artificially low, thus shielding DC and Cummins from the negative press/p. r.



I also believe that the reason that DC has not issued a recall or TSB on the issue is that a)they haven't figured out how to fix it yet, or b)it would be prohibitively costly to do so. They will have to be forced into it, and I don't know how such a process gets started.

zman

Zman, your right on target. Mine died at around 40K miles (I think?) I could not tell it was not noticeable driving it. Got a Brair Hooper fuel gauge and checked it, based on what I was reading on the TDR. If it was not for the TRD I would still be driving on a dead lift pump. I also agree that the majority of owners will have a problem with their lift pumps but won't know it and the people that own these trucks when the VP44 goes at say 150K miles will pay the price. 5-7 years from now it will be known that you have to be careful when buying a used Dodge CTD between 98 1/2 and 2002 because you may end up with a bad VP44 after the 100K warranty is up. But DC and Cummins won't care about that because they will be talking up the common rail system and how dependable it is and the VP44 will be old news. That is the way corporations work, I know I worked for one of the largest in the world and decisions are based on $$$. Their $$$

 

[Oxjockey]

The NTSB will not order a recall for something like this because it's not safety related. DC would never voluntarily recall it because it's SUCH bad press for them to do so, nevermind the costs.



There have been civil suits against manufacturers, such as the one against Rover for corrosion issues, but I'm not sure where that one got to.



The best we could hope for is a TSB, which would be their recommended fix, hopefully done under warranty.



Bryan

 

[John Berger]

I like the idea of a filter before the lift pump, but that's just one more restriction. I also like the idea of relocating the pump closer to the fuel tank. But then cold weather becomes an issue. Not so much for me, but for the folks up north... .



My present iteration (I don't know what it is with the 25 cent words today) of lift pump is holding steady at 10 psi before the filter and 12-13 psi after the filter, unloaded. With my 5ver in tow, the before filter reading goes down to 9, but the after filter reading stays right at 12-13 psi. I won't change the pump again unless I see a drastic drop in LP pressure. I think the next time I have to buy a LP, I'll relocate it back towards the tank. Anybody that's done that, please chime in with any advice you care to offer.



Oxjockey and zimman20 - I was born and raised in NJ: Stewartsville and Phillipsburg and some other small burbs in the same general area. How close are you?

 

[GotDodge]

John Berger

I put my pump buy the tank and filter before the pump. 14. 5 psi at idle and 9 psi with edge comp on 5x5. Been this way for 16000 miles. For cold weather most of your quality diesel has additives in it to avoid gelling in the winter. Check it outPump and filter

 

[Oxjockey]

Oxjockey and zimman20 - I was born and raised in NJ: Stewartsville and Phillipsburg and some other small burbs in the same general area. How close are you?

My inlaws are in Milford, NJ, which should sound familar, no?



I like the idea of the pump being closer to the tank, but I'm thinking a high flow filter would not present any great challenge. Heck, if they use them with EFI & high performance applications, something should work. I wonder if some of the big trucks use a filter pre-lift pump. It wouldn't have to be a filter with the same micro element the final filter has, but something to catch the major gunk.



Bryan

 

[zimman20]

Don't know where Stewartsville is but Phillipsburg would be west of me. A Jersey boy, eh? So you got that goin' for ya!!



zman