Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Custom Intake Manifold Gasket

[MMcCallie]

I had a custom intake manifold built that is leaking horribly. Brand new head was ported and had the intake manifold cut off. It seems likely the surfaces are very poorly matched and not sealing well, I'll deal with that once we get it all apart, hoping the head doesn't have to be resurfaced.



A gasket was used between the head and the manifold that blew on the first test drive at only 42 psi. The engine previously made almost 50 psi with the current single turbo. With the massive air leaks I can get only a very hot 31 psi.



By pressure testing from between the turbo and intercooler, we've been able to feel the massive leaks by hand, largely on the underside behind the P7100 pump. We'll have to make a custom gasket, hopefully one that will never let go.



What sort of gasket material should be used that will hold without fail? I'm guessing I'll want it to hold to at least 200 psi to make sure it will hold at my levels. Probably have to have at least one thin layer of steel with some sort of coating, possibly interlaced with metal fibers? I know the gasket needs to be thin but it may have to be thicker to compress and plug possibly wide gaps. Just to be clear, the same guy built me a custom intake elbow that leaks as well but the gasket is for a manifold that is usually a solid cast piece as part of the head, just an FYI for anyone reading this who's not sure what I'm talking about.



Does anyone know what type and where I can get a big sheet of gasket material for this application?



Thanks,

Matt

 

[therabbittree]

some deadsoft copper may be. . Haisleys sells the copper intake and grid heater gaskets . . maybe that can do some for you?. . what company built theintake. . they should be able to get you the right stuff. . How is the surface witha straight edge? . . if its warped or the head is not milled nice it may not seal until you have it milled falt. .

pictures please! ha I have wanted to do this . . but figured some thing like this would happen

Thanks

deo

 

[PRohr]

I'm probably the last person you'd take a suggestion from after all this but what about these guys:



ZZ Home



or Cometic might be able to make you something:



Cometic Gasket, Inc.

 

[Curious Dave]

You could probably have it set up with wire like they do an o-ring job to the chambers on the head. Due to the drastic expansion and contraction changes and differences (I am guessing the intake is aluminum) in material, I would be surprised the 2 pieces would ever seal with decent levels of boost. That is w/o a strong mechanical type gasket.

The other thing you might consider is finding some thing that has a I-beam cross sectional shape to it that will fit over both metals and allow you to compress it while bolting the intake back to the head. If this is the design I think it is... the bolts go horizontaly thru the manifold and into the head and look like they bolt into the casting while pointing at the injector ports. There are 6 bolts? Sound about right?

I would also think that some high temp copper adhesive would be needed. Not alot... but some to help in holding things together during assembly. A guy would not want to put alot on there and have it come off and go into the cylinders.

Maybe you could put all this together and do it yourself. Get some copper strip and some stainless wire and the copper adhesive. Hammer the copper to fit, both intake and head, and put the wire in between. That is as long as the total isn't to thick.

You could try the single layer of copper by itself and see if that works first, by itself. My only concern is that you would still have a smooth surface between 2 metals with different thermal reactions.

 

[MMcCallie]

I too thought it would be aluminum but it is steel. Here are some of the other places I'm looking to contact:

flowdry.com/gaskets
carquestgaskets.net
allstategasket.com
gasketing.net
mercergasket.com
gaskets-and-gasketing.com
therm-o-seal.com
auburn-mgf.com/gasket-material.html

If figure I'll also look into Mr. Gasket and Jegs and Summit Racing since they probably get similar requests from time to time. Thank you for the suggestions, please keep them coming. Any help narrowing the selection down will be greatly appreciated. I'll be out of town all this week for a job interview. Hopefully my mechanic will be able to find something that works from one of these sources.

 

[Signal73]

I say fix the problem first. A gasket is only as good as the 2 mating surfaces. Take it back apart and check for truness. Rubber coated copper works well for high PSI applications but isnt going to fix a machinists hackjob.

 

[DCreed]

I say fix the problem first. A gasket is only as good as the 2 mating surfaces. Take it back apart and check for truness. Rubber coated copper works well for high PSI applications but isnt going to fix a machinists hackjob.

EXACTLY. I think companies like Felpro sell sheets of gasket material also.

 

[MMcCallie]

I've been out of town and came back to find that my mechanic didn't get very far. From his description there is a plastic pin that the last mechanic broke off inside, I believe this is the timing pin below the pump. He waited to get a new one before proceeding.

Anyway, we're looking at a different game plan. There is a fabricator in town who is said to be a master welder. His nephew was at the shop and told me about him, gave his uncle a call and described my situation. The fellow claims he can weld my steel intake manifold to my cast iron head. Claims he's welded many cast iron heads and that he's tried to teach others but he's always been the only one capable. I'm going to meet with him tomorrow to further describe what I need and see what he'll charge.

My mechanic is concerned about welding on the head. He's afraid it will crack. I'm told that master TIG welders take their time welding cast like engine blocks. They'll zap for just a second then wait for it to cool to prevent warping. I'll find out more tomorrow. My mechanic is still thinking about replacing the gasket and just tapping the block so he can put in more bolts to help keep a gasket from letting go. That way he wouldn't have to pull the head. He's going to go ahead and pull the injector pump and manifold and we'll see how things look from there.

 

[Curious Dave]

I agree that it can be done and that TIG is the way to go... However, I think the cost will surprise you. The rod needs to be a special alloy, and the time it will take will be expensive. I bet it will be at least a few hundred dollars.

I believe a high end gasket is in order first. Whether you make it yourself or buy something already formed... .

The other thing is... What happens if it cracks out after it is welded? Who is responsible for the cost of replacing everything? I am sure this has been expensive to this point and you would not just give the money away to begin with. Why put yourself in the same position now?

You should be able to use some lead based or copper sheet or ribbon of some sort that will allow you to do the job. The intake is steel and does not flex like aluminum. You may try and put some more bolts in if you can find the locations that will work. But welding... I would say only as a last resort.

 

[MMcCallie]

We expect that the surfaces were not machined well and that putting another gasket in will have the same result, another blown gasket and massive air leak. We expect that I'll have to send the head and manifold to a machine shop to have them resurfaced so they will actually mate smoothly. We have no idea how much boost we can get any gasket to hold, no matter how close the surfaces or how tough the gasket. A gasket just seems like yet another thing that will leak and I'll be stranded looking for another custom gasket and having to pull all of this stuff apart again.

The nearest machine shops are in Utah, minimum 2 hour drive away. Is it most likely that welding the intake on will ruin the head, no matter how well it is done? If neither the welding nor a gasket can fix it, I'm going to have to buy yet another new head. If it can be welded and fixed for good for a few hundred dollars, I think that will be my best option and at this point, well worth it. After getting into the situation I'm in now where the guy who made this mess won't even answer his phones I don't expect any of this work to be warrantied. And I'll be living so far away it wouldn't make a difference anyway.

 

[DCreed]

All engines have gaskets and they dont fail. to say a gasket on the intake will fail if properly done just isnt correct. your stock intake has 3 gaskets! and I dont know of any aftermarket company that recommends welding the intake on.

 

[fest3er]

You could always try a cheap old-timer's trick. Paint the gasket with a certain type of silver metallic paint (I don't recall exactly what kind it is, if it even matters), let dry, and install.

I helped my uncle freshen the engine on his ancient Case DC last fall. The head gasket looked the worse for the wear. But we cleaned, painted and reinstalled it. The head was cleaned and freshened at a local shop; I don't believe it was resurfaced, and I know I only honed the cylinders. Uncle had a few new kits laying about which let us replace a few gaskets (t-stat, etc. ), and he bought new rings. We reused everything else. I broke one of the valve adjusting screws, but managed to get it adjusted after a while and a torching. And nary a torque spec to be found. "Grunt! That feels about tight enough! Say, what'd'ya know? The cotter key slips right in!" Did that about 8 times. Once back together and the spark wires where they should be (off by one: a common mistake for software types like me), it fired up and blew lots of blue smoke out until the liberal quantities of pre-lube oil I used burned off. The engine now runs better than it has in 30 years! Prolly almost as good as the DC his Dad originally bought.

I never knew those engines never turn more than 1200 RPM. My cousin's husband, from a gasser gearhead family, fixed the ignition and timing; they weren't even back 15 minutes from their honeymoon! He had that thing revved up to 4K or better! At that RPM, I could get durned near 40 MPH in road gear!

If a 60 year old painted gasket can handle cylinder pressures, I should think your intake gaskets painted should hold your boost. Considering the cost of a pint of paint, you can't go wrong. Degrease the gasket and slather on a couple coats of paint! It may not be factory, but if it works, great! And if anyone looks too closely as the edges of that gasket, just close the hood on them; they don't deserve to see any more of a fine Cummins in an Excursion.

 

[MMcCallie]

Well, its worse than I could have expected. The manifold isn't flat, a straight edge was able to rock back and forth lengthwise so you could hear the metal clinging. The gasket appears to rubber over metal and was blown and torn at the bottom. There isn't even enough surface edge for a new gasket to lay against so it will never work. Also, the intake side of the head wasn't even ported. Look like I'm dealing with fraud. Anyone have recommendations on who to order a ported head with springs, head gasket, o-rings, and rocker arm pedestals already milled for the head studs?

 

[Curious Dave]

I didn't realize you were in such a predicament. Out in the boonies is no fun for custom stuff.

I have heard about the old spray paint trick... but I believe that is why they have the copper high temp spray adhesive.

I still think the copper sheeting with some of the copper spray adhesive and a few more bolts is the best answer. That is provided the surfaces are square. The copper wouldn't need to be very thick... and the metal suraces could be roughed up a bit to give the copper something to be held by besides just the adhesive. If the old timer was really confident in welding something to the head I would suggest welding some new bosses to it for the extra bolts. But even with todays cast iron I still believe that in the long run it you will have cracking issues. Without a PMI (positive metal identification)gun you really won't be able to tell what alloy of iron the head is and therefore you won't be able to reliable choose a fill rod for the welding. The old fart may scoff at this but I deal with facts not old school try and see if it works.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

You could always try a cheap old-timer's trick. Paint the gasket with a certain type of silver metallic paint (I don't recall exactly what kind it is, if it even matters), let dry, and install.



I helped my uncle freshen the engine on his ancient Case DC last fall. The head gasket looked the worse for the wear. But we cleaned, painted and reinstalled it. The head was cleaned and freshened at a local shop; I don't believe it was resurfaced, and I know I only honed the cylinders. Uncle had a few new kits laying about which let us replace a few gaskets (t-stat, etc. ), and he bought new rings. We reused everything else. I broke one of the valve adjusting screws, but managed to get it adjusted after a while and a torching. And nary a torque spec to be found. "Grunt! That feels about tight enough! Say, what'd'ya know? The cotter key slips right in!" Did that about 8 times. Once back together and the spark wires where they should be (off by one: a common mistake for software types like me), it fired up and blew lots of blue smoke out until the liberal quantities of pre-lube oil I used burned off. The engine now runs better than it has in 30 years! Prolly almost as good as the DC his Dad originally bought.



I never knew those engines never turn more than 1200 RPM. My cousin's husband, from a gasser gearhead family, fixed the ignition and timing; they weren't even back 15 minutes from their honeymoon! He had that thing revved up to 4K or better! At that RPM, I could get durned near 40 MPH in road gear!



If a 60 year old painted gasket can handle cylinder pressures, I should think your intake gaskets painted should hold your boost. Considering the cost of a pint of paint, you can't go wrong. Degrease the gasket and slather on a couple coats of paint! It may not be factory, but if it works, great! And if anyone looks too closely as the edges of that gasket, just close the hood on them; they don't deserve to see any more of a fine Cummins in an Excursion.

horrible recomendation

 

[therabbittree]

sounds like you havea 2 hr ride to a machine . I think the best solution is going to be to remove the head and bring it and your intake to a machine shop and have them bothe milled flat. . and if you need any extra mounting bolts added that is the time. . do it right once and not again. . if that is not a option . . you can take the intake off your self and attempt to get it flat. . it at home only thing i can think of is a large belt sander and a straight edge..... maybe give that a shot first then if thats ano go remove the head and intake and proceed to a machine shop of your choice.

Take some pictures for us. .

Thanks

deo

 

[MMcCallie]

My mechanic and I looked at pictures on the ZZ Fabrication website together last night and compared them to my head. The amount of material required to be left for the ZZ intake manifold is greater than what is left on my head. The guy milled off too much material. No wonder there are gaps where the gasket is supposed to seal. We also don't see how the intake he built is any better than stock.

And I just can't believe Rob Watkins told me the whole point of the thing was so he could port the intake side, told me he'd ported it, made me pay him for it, and it hasn't even been touched by a tool. Then it doesn't even work?! I'm so steemed about this. I paid Rob thousands of dollars for a huge mess that has to be completely redone. I'm thinking I need to leave the head and manifold as is for evidence and take some legal action. I'll try to post pics. If it was a few hundred dollars I might be able to afford to let it go but thousands of dollars, and the thousands it is costing to do it again can't be ignored.

I've talked to Piers about sending me a new head and they are at least a couple weeks from being able to get one out the door. I'm going to check out what Gillette Diesel's machine shop can do since their machine shop is only about a 5 hour drive away. I can't believe I'm having to spend all of this money again. This will be the third head that has been on my truck in just a few months, two of which are brand new and I'm hardly even getting to drive it.

 

[Curious Dave]

MMcCallie,



I am glad you recieved my message about ZZ's site. I would think that you may be able to make an adapter plate to utilize your head and intake. How much difference is there? I understand your frustration 100%. I agree that it sounds like a mess. Best of luck and keep us posted.



Dave

 

[MMcCallie]

I am picking up a new ported head with firerings tomorrow from Industrial Injection. Taking my rocker arm pedestals down as well so they can mill them properly while I wait. Hoping they can gather some used valve covers as well. Going to pickup a 3 piece PDI exhaust manifold while I'm there. Can't think of anything else I need right off hand. I'll probably drive the truck down to II once it is running again to have them tell me what they think we can do as far as compound turbos. Don't know what I'm going to do with this milled head and intake.

 

[therabbittree]

I think any gaps in your old head and intake . . ie if the guy milled too much material off could be built up with weld and then milled down to the correct height you want and re drilled tapped etc. . that is feasible. . good luck with the the new head etc. .

Do you have pictures of your excursion and its conversion?. . As I am in asimilar boat I'm interested in seeing how your truck is put togther.

Thanks

deo