//// Custom Pintle Set up / heavy BUMPER towing with a 1997 W 3500 ////

[AndrewKing]

HI All,

I am looking to do some HEAVY NON goose neck / NON 5th wheel towing with my 1997 W3500 club cab pickup with 4.10 gears.

What I want to ultimately do is move a 10 to 12K machine on a fairly regular basis. FWIW I also own a backhoe that weighs in at about 18K lbs. that I would also like to move with my dump truck.

I am looking to buy a 12T rated trailer so I can haul my 2 pieces of equipment (not at the same time of course...the trailer weighs about 5600 lbs empty).

While I am not planning on moving the Backhoe with my dually using a bumper pull pintle set up.....(I think THAT would be too heavy... I would use my ford F800 (5.9 Cummins powered with a 6 speed for that).....I really wanted to just buy 1 heavy trailer instead of 2 separate trailers to move my machines.

While it would be easier (and maybe safer?) for me to just get a goose neck hitch and goose neck trailer for my dually to move the 12K lbs machine and just use the dump truck for the backhoe ....I really did not want to do so for a number of reasons :

1) Cost to set up the truck for goose neck use.

2) Cost of a separate goose neck trailer.

3) I run a cap on my truck and keep work tools / equipment in back .....Plus the cap comes in handy when shopping for stuff and to keep stuff out of the either and safe because it is lockable.

So my questions are as follows...

1) What is my 1997 4x4 dually (4.10 gears / extended cab....5.9 cummins ) factory rated to tow as a "bumper" pull. Also, what is my trucks GCWR ?....the sticker on my door jamb does not give this info. but it does give the GVW and the front and rear axle ratings.

2) The heaviest rated receiver type hitch I could locate is rated at 16,000 lb gross tow load and 1600 lb tongue weight.....I think this will fall a little short
on my 12K machine + 5700 lb trailer weight (17700 lb total) so is there a company that anybody knows of that makes a heavier rated receiver type hitch?

3) I was thinking of removing my rear step bumper, getting some 1" steel plate and plasma cutting a "filler plate" to join the 2 sections of rear frame rails together (pintle plate set up dump truck style) and then drilling 4 holes to mount a dump truck type pintle hitch.

Also, since my frame is not a double frame like my dump truck, I may also do a home made double frame reinforcement of my trucks frame and maybe add in a few extra cross members and some diagonal bracing to boot (of course all this extra weight may be detrimental to my rear end axle loading BUT I want anything I add to be beefy to say the least).

So what kind of rating would this hitch set up have in theory (the smallest steel in this set up would be my actual frame rail!)?

Suppose I just add the rear "filler plate" and mount the pintle without the extra double framing or extra cross members....would this be enough or would you add the extra bracing? what would a potential capacity rating be of this pintle hitch set up ?(I realize getting a "formal / official" number would probably require engineering knowledge and take into the relative material strengths / dimensions etc....but I am hoping that something so beefy looking and well made would have "the man" just look at the set up and say wow...overkill...OK no problem (that scenario in case I get pulled....also in case of an accident I want to stop lawyers in their tracks....but you know come to think of it my dump truck and my friends dump truck don't have any ratings on the frame mods....just the actual bolted on pintle hitch so who's to say THAT install is actually rated to tow heavy stuff?

FWIW I realize that a 17700 lb tow weight theoretically requires a minimum of about 1800 tongue weight and that that weight hanging off the rear axle of my pick up by about 3 feet would be a bit harder than a goose neck putting the same weight directly over the rear axle BUT I would be curious how that would work on my truck? ...too much rear axle loading? worse come to worse (and I realize it may not be optimal)....could I just run a little less tongue weight (less than 10%) and just drive slower to keep the rear axle from crying uncle?...Of course I realize that many people tow in excess of factory ratings BUT I wanted to officially try at least staying within them...

OK, so there you have it ....what do you think about my plans?....Any and all inputs, comments and concerns would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Andrew

 

[GAmes]

I've pulled a 10,000 pound, pintle hitch, enclosed cargo trailer. Even with air bags it took a lot of weight off the steer axle. Much more than that, would be unmanageable. If you go with a 2 5/16 ball and a weight distribution hitch the weights could go up. Factory ratings are an issue when your truck is in warranty, but since you asked the tow rating is 10,000 pounds which is coincidentally, the weight rating of the stock receiver with WD. The factory GCWR is 16,000, another meaningless number. I suggest you use the F800 and forget that big bumper pull with the Dodge.

 

[JR]

Class V hitches are rated for 17k/1700 tongue weight with a w/d hitch. Its well above the published tow ratings of your truck, but I doubt it would overload the rear axle. I don't know what the RAWR of a 97 D80 DRW is but the later 2nd gen is 7500 lbs. Of course, gearing and trans also plays into this rating. Dana rates its axle to 11,000 lbs, if your running the 215/85/16 LRE you'll be overloaded at 10,720, but the springs will be overloaded well before that. I wouldn't mess with it if you've got a bigger truck.

 

[GAmes]

JR I agree with most of what you are saying, but the term "class V" means nothing. There is not an industry standard for classifications, thus one manufacturer's "class V" is another's "class IV". The difference is weight ratings with and without weight distribution, and those are all over the board. Also, since you mentioned the tow ratings of his truck, the complete ratings (which are what the factory receiver tag states) are 500 hitch weight 5000 trailer w/o wd and 1000/10,000 with wd. Those are not really truck ratings, they are receiver ratings.

 

[NIsaacs]

I agree with Gary and JR, the dump truck is the way to go.

However, as one who hauls heavy I can understand the need to have more than 1 tow vehicle. 1800 lbs will not overload your rear axle or frame but the total weight towed will be a hand full. At the very least I would do as you suggested and remove the bumper and build a solid channel iron hitch. That will move your hitch point about 12" closer to your rear axle center line.

I have a 14k dump trailer and 14k equipment trailer that I regularly haul maxed out with my '01 2500 with no problem. Always have plenty of hitch weight, a light hitch will cause major handling issues. I hauled 9 loads of these heavy rocks without issue but would kill the battery by only dumping 3 loads, they were heavy.

Nick

 

[JR]

Gary you are right there is no class V standard recognized by SAE, the numbers I used were from my hitch but the manufacturers that make them are all fairly close together in their ratings. I have a 14k lb GVW tag tilt trailer and have loaded it heavy plenty of times. My truck isn't ideal to haul that kind of weight but all my trips that heavy are with a proper w/d set up, within 50 miles and all rural roads. I also keep my truck and trailer in tip top operating condition, something that's to be desired with a lot of the farmers in this area. Like Nick says, yes the truck would haul it (with w/d) but its a pretty stout load for an 18 year old truck.. Its also going to take the pinto hook out of the equation, so now your back to two trailers and if you need to haul that heavy with the Dodge I'd really just stick with a GN.

This is also assuming a mechanically solid truck and atransmission, if its a tired NV4500 or a stock 47 you'll burn both of em up pretty quick.

 

[GAmes]

Its also going to take the pinto hook out of the equation, so now your back to two trailers and if you need to haul that heavy with the Dodge I'd really just stick with a GN.

This is also assuming a mechanically solid truck and atransmission, if its a tired NV4500 or a stock 47 you'll burn both of em up pretty quick.

I totally agree.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

I wouldn't try it. That load would be a handful as gooseneck or fifth wheel for the new 3500 dually which is far more capable than the old ones. Since tongue weight on a tag along trailer should be at least 10% of trailer weight, and 15% is better, you will put too much weight on the truck.

 

[AndrewKing]

HI All,

Been doing a little more research into this whole towing heavy with a reese type receiver hitch and ran across this.... WOW....Anybody know about these hitches?

http://www.pullrite.com/products/pullrite-worry-free-travel-trailer-towing

It looks to be the solution to heavy hauling without a gooseneck.....the hitch is factory rated at 20000 lb tow and 2000 lb tongue weight and it puts the load / pivot on the rear axle.....I really cannon get my head around how it works but I will call then in the AM...

Another thing I am thinking of doing (if the pullrite solution is a no go) is recessing the pintle plate further into the frame closer to the rear axle....reason....I read on a towing article that moving a 9000 lb piece of equipment as little as 6 inches forward can put an additional 600 lbs on the tongue....I'm not sure how the math works out but moving the pintle inward would have nothing but positive results as far as tongue weight affecting the rear end is concerned...Of course I can't recess the plate too far inward because I still need to be able to turn and I wouldn't want some hills etc... to cause the trailer tongue to hit the truck frame or other area....I guess I'd just have to get the trailer first then mock up the hitch plate...and possibly recess it as far towards the rear end as I date (imagine the looks on peoples faces when a good portion of the trailer tongue is hidden UNDER the truck !

Andrew

 

[JR]

From what I can tell they don't make them for the older trucks. May take a phone call to find out. I have no experience with that type of hitch so can't comment either way, but I'd be interested in learning more about the design and function.

 

[NIsaacs]

HI All,

Been doing a little more research into this whole towing heavy with a reese type receiver hitch and ran across this.... WOW....Anybody know about these hitches?

http://www.pullrite.com/products/pullrite-worry-free-travel-trailer-towing

.....the hitch is factory rated at 20000 lb tow and 2000 lb tongue weight and it puts the load / pivot on the rear axle...

Andrew

It does not put the load directly on the rear axle, just the pivot point. The hitch weight is still hanging from the frame.

Nick

 

[GAmes]

You missed this part. "........with the weight distributing system being an integral part of the PullRite design.........." Without WD the weight is hanging off the rear, just like a conventional hitch.

I hate it when companies use scare tactics to sell their product. "That pivot point between the truck axle and the trailer axles creates trailer sway - it's simply a fact." is pure BS.

At any rate, the Pullrite won't help you any. It will just add more weight to the back of the truck.

 

[NIsaacs]

At any rate, the Pullrite won't help you any. It will just add more weight to the back of the truck.

Exactly, and by the time you install a drawbar adapter to fit the pintle hitch you will increase your hitch length/overhang from original, a no no.

Nick

 

[AndrewKing]

HI,

I spoke to the folks at Pull Rite today regarding what I thought would be the solution to my heavy towing situation.

Turns out the pull rite does move the pivot point to closer to the rear end (the rear diff) of the truck (by virtue of a swinging receiver tube that pivots on a hinge located near the trucks differential while the pivoting receiver tube is supported at the outer my steel rollers riding on a circular track under and close to the rear bumper of the truck.....this supposedly reduces sway).

The unit can "shift" weight by using a typical weight distributing hitch set up.....the unit itself pivots near the rear diff but doesn't actually put weight on the rear end like a 5th wheel or goose neck does.

The unit for my truck would run about $2800......for the hitch....The weight distributing part is still extra (about $750 for a 17K rated unit).....hitches are vehicle specific.....pretty pricy in my opinion.

I know there are a number of trailer anti sway systems out there (from the simple weight distributing hitches with the optional sway control bushings to products like the Hensley Arrow hitch systems to the Pull Rites....but the latter 2 systems are run about $3K and while weight distributing is probably nice to have.....I have yet to find one that is rated for 18K+ lbs.

Side note tho...the Pull Rite can be locked in place to be used as a 20K / 2K tongue weight receiver type hitch BUT at a price of nearly $3K!...ouch

The highest standard receiver type hitch I could located is a 17K gross tow weight / 2400 lb tongue weight unit (about $350), A 17K weight distributing system (about $750), I would have to swap out the pintle ring for a standard coupler (20K cap Wallace unit for $75 (when it becomes available...it is a 2 bolt channel mount unit so I would have to mount it in a channel then weld the channel assembly to a plate with 4 bolts to be able to attach it to the trailer (the trailer pintle loop (lunette ring?) is held on by 4 bolts in a rectangular pattern)....the channel costs about $35, Misc steel and bolts probably another $45, high strength ball $30).....All up cost (not including shipping and custom fab time) is about $1285

The disadvantage of the above "system" (std received w/ weight dist) is that the true towed weight is probably closer to 18K so I may still be overloading the system still (the weak links being the trailer hitch and the weight distributing system since each is only rated at 17K ). The other disadvantage is that the trailer pintle ring would have to be reattached anytime I wanted to haul the backhoe using the dump truck since the backhoe weighs even more and the dump only has a pintle hitch.

While searching / researching online I located some pics of a Curt hitch mounted on a 1997 truck like mine (see pic below)....the trailer ball is mounted probably about 2 feet further out from the rear diff than it has to be.....mainly because the ball sticks out well past the bumper , that sticks out well past the end of the frame...

I am thinking I could have a custom receiver type hitch welded to take care of the weight capacity issue (of course it may not be engineer certified BUT it would be definitely and infinitely more beefy than commercial units (I have access to all types of thick rectangular tubing / thick metal plate and a good welder)....maybe even double frame parts of the factory frame...Also, I can possibly delete the factory rear bumper, mount my custom made hitch UNDER the frame where the fuel tank is (yes under the fuel tank too possibly) so the ball effectively comes out of the receiver just under the truck just past the fuel tank (yes tongue may be a litte under the bed so that may limit jack knifing the trailer to make sharp turns to a degree BUT more importantly, decreasing the distance the ball is from the rear axle would possibly eliminate the need for the weight distribution system since the weight would be closer to a goos neck type loading of the rear end.

Despite the above, I think my first plan of attack on this heavy haul dilemma will simply be to remove the factory rear bumper (I can always go back w/ some I beam as a bumper (thinner) and fill in between the frame rails with 1" plate (maybe even have some drop down since the truck sits high and mount the pintle to that (I may even recess the plate back further since according to the miller forums you cant or shouldn't simply flush mount the plate to the end of the frame (you want to be able to do a full bead weld in font of and behind the plate and moving it back further serves to reduce the distance the weight sits from the rear axle)....My theory on this is the pintle may be close enough to the rear diff that it may act more like a goose neck in terms of weight on the rear end and eliminate the need for weight distributing and all the necessary work (and cost) that would involve(the above mods)...This mod would only cost me the price of a 30K rated pintle hook (yes overkill but why not?)....and a bunch of 1" plate.

Another benefit if this mod works is that I can transfer the trailer between the dually and the dump without modifying anything since the lunette ring would stay on the trailer rather than be changed out to the ball style coupler to be used with a weight distributing system.

Any other ideas / suggestions before I start this? questions, comments or concerns are welcome.

BTW - I am picking up the equipment trailer tomorrow so I can test fitment issues etc...

Andrew

 

[Road Dog]

Before you go crazy with 1" plate, have a look at the Curt 15808 receiver which is a 20K, 2,700# tongue weight receiver for late model Dodge trucks. It probably doesn't fit your truck but it'll give you any idea of how heavy duty to build your receiver.

You haven't mentioned the brakes.

 

[GAmes]

It would be a chore pulling a trailer that heavy with a properly set up weight distribution system. At least some of the hitch weight would be transferred to the steer axle and the trailer axles. I don't think anyone on the forum would subscribe to hooking it to a pintle hitch equipped 2nd gen, no matter what contraption is welded to the frame. If you insist on doing it I suggest you purchase some large insurance policies, both life and liability.

 

[AndrewKing]

Hey thanks for the link....That is a beefy receiver!.....I will call them tomorrow and see how it is constructed (I wonder why I didn't see that in my searches? BUT I am glad you found it !)..

I looked at my truck earlier today and for better handling I am pretty sure I can put a hitch (pintle plate and / or receiver hitch much closer to the rear end than the "typical" mounting set up....The underside of my truck back to the diff is pretty much clean...no fuel tank to worry about there, no spare tire there and no exhaust pipe either (my pipe ends before the diff under the bed....I do need to reroute it to eliminate some drone)

I managed to come back today with 1995 Econoline 12 Ton Backhoe Pro trailer w/ Multimax suspension....needs a little TLC (go over the wiring....a couple brake butt connectors need repair....a couple lights are screwy...unbend the ramps (yes something seriously heavy was hauled at sometime....reweld / add reinforcing plates to the main frame where there were a couple cracks (probably when it hauled heavy)....Replace decking (yes pretty much rotted out), air up a couple tires (looked a little low but I didn't feel like crawling under the trailer to add air (they really weren't that low just a tad but since I had 8 tires running an empty trailer I let it slide...we made it back in one piece!).

Something I saw today that made me wonder about this whole tongue weight issue....I saw a couple pickups flat towing a small pick up and a car (2 different trucks)...guess what?....ZERO tongue weight on the pulling vehicle! .....I guess this works because the towed weight cannot "lift" the rear end of the towing if it bobs up ad down? I am assuming that is why a trailer needs tongue weight?....Come to think about it I am not sure a tow dolly has much tongue weight either?....Hmm so what gives?

Truthfully, when I haul lawn equipment (my normal business)....I arrange the mowers and tools in such a way that the tongue is not excessively heavy....I usually load by "feel" the and adjust accordingly until it "feels" right when towing then I put everything in the same spot each time....Just for kicks I should measure tongue weight one day and see if I am at the recommended 10 to 15% of towed weight....my guess is I may be a little light tongue weight wise BUT it feels "right" towing.

As far as brakes....properly adjusted and functioning brakes on the truck and trailer should be plenty.....The most I'll be hauling with the dually would be the machine at about 12K on the trailer that weighs 5K empty per the MFG tag.....thus towed weight may be about 17K to 18K ( 18K in case the machine weighs more than I think)....since the trailer is rated at 24K....that would leave me about a 6K factor of safety in terms of brakes the trailer can provide (when I first got the trailer hooked up I tested the brakes at low speed...they (the trailer brakes) stopped the truck and trailer no problem....gotta love 8 trailer brakes! (well in all fairness at least 1 wasn't working because the butt connector was off and the leads were separated).

You know speaking of brakes and safety......potential disaster is just 1 wire break away (or fuse blow away)....Has anybody thought of rigging up 2 totally separate brake controllers and separate sets of wiring (separate fuses too) to the trailer brakes so in case 1 fails the redundant controller would take over....Likewise if 1 wire in one system broke rendering it inop, the second redundant system can or will assume the role.....What do you think?...is this doable?.....I mean to tow heavy and have the trailer brakes crap out for whatever reason is literally an accident waiting to happen (ON the flip side tho, when I drive I typically drive easy enough that I pretend my trailer brakes aren't working.....I coast to stops typically or as much as possible....but yes you do have to watch out for other people lots esp when towing heavy (Actually on my 250 Mile trip with this new (new to me at least) trailer I maxed out at 55 MPH even (typically I stayed about 52 mph) tho the speed limit was 70 mostly....Mileage was good tho....15.8 MPG (4.11 or 4.10 type gears really hurt mileage but she does pull good!).

Andrew