Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) cyclic surging at cold temps...

[BJonesUSA]

I don't really know how to describe this, but whenever the truck is cold, I get a cyclic surging from the engine under even light acceleration. Surging sounds like engine is revving 100-200 rpm or so for about 2 seconds, then stops for about 10-15, then repeats... but goes away when I let off, and completely disappears after 10-15 minutes. No visible change in RPM's, clutch doesn't seem to be slipping... . could it be something in the fuel system? I'm thinking my lp is on the fritz (fp guage on the way). I've been having problems with the APPS, but only after driving for an hour or more and things have reached operating temperature. Any and all help would be appreciated!

 

[RAJohnson]

Mine kind a does the same thing when cold. I always account it to the fuel being thicker when cold. Get your fuel pressure gauge in and go from there.

 

[RAJohnson]

One more thing how have you been resetting your APPS. HAve you done it this way Reset APPS

 

[Deacon_ffff]

Mine does the same thing, and when your idling you'll probably notice the battery guage goes down with the surge and comes back up after it. After researching it on here a little bit I figure it's the grid cycling on and off. I have no idea what this is or what it does, but after reading several other posts about the exact same problem I kinda figure it's normal. One thread suggested taking off one of the sensors (sorry I can't remember which one, but it's on the driver's side of the engine close to the firewall) and cleaning it, then putting it back together with dialectric (sp?) grease. I tried this and it didn't seem to make any difference, but I probably just didn't do it right.

 

[BJonesUSA]

it's not the grid heater, I've been aware of that for a long time... this problem is tied to the turbo somehow... when it was at the dealer last week getting the LP replaced, I also had them look for the surging... the tech heard it and said it was due to getting too much boost, which left me scratching my head b/c I'm not pushing that much... the surging sound like a sudden overfueling b/c the engine sounds like it revvs up 100-200 rpm... until yesterday it was only doing it when the engine was cold, but on my way back home last night it started doing it on the highway, did a little experimenting and found that it only occured between 5-10 psi boost... fuel pressure was constant at around 5 psi cruising, no flutter when it surged... so I'm stumped as to what is going on, but I'm very concerned that it's causing damage to the engine.

 

[MCharlebois]

surging over and over... ... ... . vp44

 

[JCyrbok]

Yup I second the VP44, that was the first symptoms I had, surging while cold, then at highway speed, Then dead pedal.



The surge I had I could hear, but couldnt feel the surge.



Sorry for the potential bad news.



J-



p. s. if you are running 5psi FP at cruising speed, I would REALLY think that it is the VP-44. Generally accepted lower limit FP is 8-10psi cruising ( I know its based on volume now).

 

[BJonesUSA]

ok, I can accept that it could be the vp44... would it behoove me to unhook the edge box and check for faulty MAP and IAT sensors?

 

[JCyrbok]

couldnt hurt. I un-hooked my EZ when I started having problems and I think it bought me some time before the dead pedal got too bad.



Are you really only getting 5psi fuel pressure? Is that with the stock lift pump on the engine or a retro fit in the tank. Low fuel pressure = dead VP44 eventually.

J-

 

[BJonesUSA]

guess it'll have to do until I can find out for sure if it is indeed the vp44... the dealer here said they don't deal with very many cummins, so I gotta find a place that does and will give me a straight answer... .



Also, can anyone tell me if there is any difference in the vp44 for the HO (mine) and standard, or auto vs. manual trans? I found a couple on ebay and wanted to be sure I am going to be bidding on the right pump!

 

[RAJohnson]

guess it'll have to do until I can find out for sure if it is indeed the vp44... the dealer here said they don't deal with very many cummins, so I gotta find a place that does and will give me a straight answer... .



Also, can anyone tell me if there is any difference in the vp44 for the HO (mine) and standard, or auto vs. manual trans? I found a couple on ebay and wanted to be sure I am going to be bidding on the right pump!

I don't think there is a difference. They sell them here as one in the same.

http://www.industrialinjection.com/...ode=0470506028S&Category_Code=Dodge+Fuel+Pump

 

[BJonesUSA]

update...



Took it to another dealer (more experienced in Cummins work) and they, too, heard the surging, but still weren't able to find anything mechanically wrong... told me again that I was pushing too much boost (Banks turbo housing) so their computer wasn't reading things right, so they couldn't do anything for me... anybody had that happen? I can't quite gather how pushing 5# at cruise instead of 2# could throw things off that badly. Has only thrown the 1693 code, took to AutoZone and they pulled out the 216, but the dealer said it was set long ago and they couldn't clear it????



On my way home yesterday, I experimented with the trottle, trying to get a pattern of occurance for the surging, but really couldn't get any kind of pattern... the only thing that is consistent is the frequency... one surge cycle every 3 seconds or so... I'm gonna try resetting the APPS tomorrow and clean the IAT to see if that has any positive effect. I'm leaving for Iraq (again!!) in about 5 weeks and I'd kinda like to have the problem solved before I go... .



Also, the new lp/retrofit seems to be working well, even if the numbers are a little low, 6# idle, 5# cruise, 4# wot...

 

[cerberusiam]

The 1693 code is a companion code indicating there is a code in the ECM that needs attention. The P0216 code inidcates injection timing failure. The ECM commanded a setting in the VP44 and it failed to comply. The surging is probably the VP failing to set the demanded fuel rate and the ECM rapidly compensating for the out of range readings. Hate to say it but it has all the symptoms of a failing IP.



The fuel pressure is still too low. Irregardless of flow there is still a pressure requirement to get the fuel to flow to the IP. As was mentioned, a minimum of 8 to 10 psi at WOT and around 14 to 15 psi at an idle to be safe. Low fuel pressure will some times trigger the P0216 but it is generally a pump problem by that time.



There is a difference between the HO and SO pumps, with the electronics, the internal parts, and the ECM programming. Not positive but I don't think they will interchange. A Bosch authorized dealer should be able to recognize the pump number and get you the right pump.



Good luck.

 

[BJonesUSA]

I'm in agreement... I think it's the vp44 too, but I can't seem to get the dealer to go along with the assessment and just order a new one... and since it's still under warranty, I'm not about to shell out 1600 clams for a new one! Guess I'm stuck like chuck until the **** thing up and dies on me...

 

[JCyrbok]

Well unfourtunately the dealer shipwill not "just order a new one" unless of course u r shelling the money for everything. The VP is a "controlled" part by Dodge and they have to have failing test parameters before one will be released. U also have to "pass" the tests that the pump/fuel system/fuel timing etc, has not been modified (Timing/pressure box IE: edge etc).



The way I understand it is that the VP can be hooked up to the diagnostic electronics and that tells what the problem is. When mine started to go, I dropped it off at the dealer ship, which is 45 minutes from my house. When I walking in the door to my house, dealership was leaving message on my machine that the VP was bad with an internal failure.



It then took about 4 days to get the new one in and installed.



Hope this helps,

J-

 

[BJonesUSA]

The dealer I had it at on Friday had it hooked up to his computer for almost 2 hours, but kept telling me that since the boost was running high, he didn't have anything to compare it too... what the crap does that mean??? either the thing is failing the diagnostic tests or it ain't!



Also, tried resetting the APPS today... before I started, checked the voltage at the PCM (orange wire/blue tracer) and it showed . 12V... so I pulled the APPS off, but couldn't figure out how to adjust it and keep it set at the . 463V as shown on the tag... put it back together, showed . 08V! checked the DTC's in the odometer, and it threw a P0122, APPS voltage too low, as well as lighting the check engine light... . and interestingly enough, there was very little surging on my way back home tonight (2 hours highway) which really has me thinking that all my problems are tracing to the APPS... anybody know if those things are covered under the 5yr/100K mile warranty from DC?? If so, should be a no brainer, otherwise I need a good source to buy a new one... anybody know where I can get one?





update: this morning, check engine light was off, but still shows a P0122... . and much to my chagrin I found out that there are two cycles on the ingition DTC display, one for the PCU and another for the ECU... I felt really stupid when I saw the ECU sequence showing 4 codes! P0122, P1693, P0216, and P0234... that last one is engine overboost, which can only be caused by the Banks Quick Turbo and has to be why the dealer couldn't get the problem diagnosed... he told me that since the pressure was too high, he didn't have anything to compare it to and that I needed to reinstall the factory turbo housing and intake to get the right readings... . anybody had that problem with Banks stuff???? I emailed them this morning, still no reply.

 

[RAJohnson]

Also, tried resetting the APPS today... before I started, checked the voltage at the PCM (orange wire/blue tracer) and it showed . 12V... so I pulled the APPS off, but couldn't figure out how to adjust it and keep it set at the . 463V as shown on the tag... put it back together, showed . 08V! checked the DTC's in the odometer, and it threw a P0122, APPS voltage too low, as well as lighting the check engine light... . and interestingly enough, there was very little surging on my way back home tonight

BJones when you had the APPS removed and saw the voltage stated on the back. That is what you want to read on the orange/blue wire at the PCM. If you are not then loosen the two screws holding it to the APPS housing and rotate it just a little bit, then resnug the two screws and recheck the reading at the PCM. Depending on which way you rotated it the voltage at the PCM will either be closer to that on the back of the APPS or father away. Keep adjusting at small increments until what you read is the same as what is on the back. FWIW I took my fluke meter and set it up so I could see the numbers when I was at the APPS adjusting it. This helped from going back and forth all the time and only took about 3 minutes to set it once I had it in my hand.

 

[cerberusiam]

he told me that since the pressure was too high, he didn't have anything to compare it to and that I needed to reinstall the factory turbo housing and intake to get the right readings.

Of couse he would.



You need an electronic boost fooler to limit the max boost the ECM is seeing. That way the Banks stuff can do what it wants and not throw the codes. There is a max boost value stored in the ECM that will cause issues issues if you over run it. I am surprised that wasn't suggested when you got the Banks system.