Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Daily Driving & Towing w/Mach 5s and an HTB2 Charger

[HeavyHauler]

Hey guys - I'm leaning toward the above as my next setup. Right now, my truck is 95% a daily driver with no towing, but I would like to have the option to tote something large if the situation arises. Are there any potentially serious problems towing the the larger injectors like this?



I'll be running Don M's Mach 5 injectors (200 HP) with an Edge EZ and no wire-tapped fueling box. I feel like that should put me around 450 full-time horsepower which puts me in the range for an HTB2 and HTT strongly recommended that I go with a 12cm2 housing.



So what are your thoughts on this setup? Should I be able to tow 5,000 - 6,000 pounds with no EGT issues if needed? Any concerns about cylinder pressures or other technical issues that I probably know nothing about? :-laf



Any speculations as to what smoke will be like and what the fuel mileage difference will be over 1. 6s?



I'm something like number 79 on the waiting list for an HTB2. So it will be another 3 - 4 weeks before I have that in my possession. The time to change my mind is now so let's hear what you guys have to say.



Thanks a bunch!

 

[DHayden]

Do you have an H. O. ? If you do Don says you will only get max power out of 4. 5's and below. You may already know that.

 

[HeavyHauler]

Nope - got the 5-speed (see sig). I should be good to go in that area.

 

[zstroken]

what about the at 64/12??

 

[HeavyHauler]

Well, I was wondering if I shouldn't try something larger, but Everett @ HTT said the HTB2 with the 12cm2 housing would be the way to go with what I use my truck for, that is, daily driving with an option to tow and no sled pulling or drag racing. He said that at ~450 HP, I shouldn't have any problems keeping things cool.



He was really pushing me toward quick spool up for my application, which is what I prefer. I do a lot of around town driving to and I don't want to have a big smoking lag pig to deal with. I think when I said I don't plan to compete that took me out of the running for a Killer B2 or Sled Puller 66. Of course, we can always upgrade in the future.

 

[Tcolesanti]

After just installing a 64/12 on an HO truck last night, I was pretty impressed at how fast it spools with 120hpEDMs and an Edge Comp. I think in your application an injector around a 150-175hp with no pump wire tap, and a 62/12 or a 64/12 would work great. I would steer away from an injector bigger than that, due to mileage issues. I would listen to HTT and stay away from the 14cm housing if you want it to spool fast.

I have the 64/14 and with a pretty healthy injector it still takes a little bit to spool.

 

[HeavyHauler]

Any ideas as to what kind of mileage decrease I would see? I'm running the Mach 1. 6s right now and the best I've gotten has been 22. 4 MPG on the highway. Before the 1. 6s, I could get a little over 20 MPG with the stock injectors.



Need some more input on this one! I've got to be making some decisions soon.

 

[Tcolesanti]

I tow with my truck when I am not sled pulling it, and when I had 120hp EDM's in it with the Killer B2 I towed a little over 10k from Ca to NY. I had an issue staying "on top" of the turbo when the rpm's were below 2000, and the boost was above 17 psi. Now that was with the drag comp set on 1x1. Bottom line I was getting right at 10mpg towing that much. Now with the tighter housing, as proven to me last night, it is very possible to stay on top of that turbo at lower rpm's, and smaller injectors. I would definately say your actual mileage would suffer changing to a 150-175hp injector, down to maybe 17mpg around town, but would do fine on the highway (19+mpg).

 

[Hohn]

I'm getting 20-22 on the hwy with M4s and no electronic power mods. (for now)



Mileage with the m4s is better than with DD2s.



I know you don't want to tap the wire, but I suggest stepping down to the m4s. I dunno how clean the m5s are, but the 4s are plenty clean for any and all driving.



Besides, with 4s you could tap the wire and keep the box turned really low. The solenoid won't see much of a duty cycle that way. It doesn't take much for a wire tap to offset the difference between m4s and m5s. You could probably run a Comp on 3 or 4 and a TST on 5 or 6 and recoup the difference between nozzle sizes-- and have something that was a little more friendly on the street.



Have they (HTT) fixed the surge problems on the 64/12?

 

[HeavyHauler]

I'm not saying I wouldn't tap the wire eventually - I'm just looking for the most bang for the buck right now. Here's what I've figured:



I'm probably at no more than 340 HP right now, which doesn't qualify me for a turbo upgrade. If I added a TST box to get me where I would like to be horsepower wise, I probably wouldn't be able to play much on the higher levels because of my stock turbo. I feel like I'm "in-between" turbos.



Next, stacking a TST box with my EZ would probably give me another 90-100 HP on Level 9, at a cost of $650. That would probably put me at no more than 450 HP and probably less. Now, if I upgraded to say Mach 5s, I would gain 110 full-time horsepower over what I have now and that definitely puts me in the range for a big turbo. Olee Poole is running 10% off on all products this month, so I could get a set of Mach 5s for $900. Subtract the $600 or so that I could get for the 1. 6s, and I've added 110 HP that's always there for $300 or so. With the box, I wouldn't even want to have it on most of the time so I feel like it would be a waste for me to try one.



Hohn, I'm like you - I think too much but the choice seems obvious to me when I think about it. I still haven't ruled out Mach 4s, but for only $100 more, I could get another 50 HP from the Mach 5s which would get me to my 450 HP goal with no wire tap.



With the Mach 4s, I may or may not be able to hit 400 HP.



Anyway, what are your thoughts on this? Sorry so long!

 

[Tcolesanti]

I would buy the "mach 5's" and the 64/12 turbo, and be done with it. However, even with that turbo, if you add a TST or a Comp to it, you are going to cook that thing.

 

[Hohn]

HH, I follow you and I would probably do the same thing in your sitchiation



The power/dollar of a large injector is a pretty good bargain, don't you think?

 

[HeavyHauler]

Hohn (or anyone else) - based on what you know, do you think that there would be any dramatic difference in the fuel mileage of Mach 4s and Mach 5s? It seems like people tend to treat the Mach 5s like they're in a different category as far as design and driveability go but then again, it doesn't seem like there are that many people running them.



Also, until Hohn's very positive review of the Mach 4s, most people considered them to be a race-only injector. He showed us that you can still get 20+ MPG out of a 150 HP injector and it still be very friendly around town - with a stock turbo!



I may be the guinea pig for the Mach 5s and report back with mileage figures and my thoughts on their driveability.

 

[Tcolesanti]

HeavyHauler, you have to understand the the turbocharger plays a huge effect on mileage, not the injectors alone. While Hohn has a 150hp EDM injector in his truck, that turbo lights instantly, utilizing that fuel and heat, instantly. Now take a larger charger, with more fuel, and its going to take more heat, and pressure to reach the same boost level. With a larger turbo you WILL see higher temps until ACTUAL SPOOLUP is reached, then once the charger is lit, it will keep the motor cool. In keeping the temps down with a large turbo, comes rpm, more rpm less throttle, less heat, crappy fuel mileage. I am just trying to clear this up, while Hohn maybe driving around with a set of "mach 4's" in his truck he cannot utilize all that power without more air.

 

[BWillard]

On the way out to IRP I got 21MPG at 75-80MPH most of the way ... ... . that could be a twin thing though!

 

[Hohn]

HeavyHauler, you have to understand the the turbocharger plays a huge effect on mileage, not the injectors alone. While Hohn has a 150hp EDM injector in his truck, that turbo lights instantly, utilizing that fuel and heat, instantly. Now take a larger charger, with more fuel, and its going to take more heat, and pressure to reach the same boost level. With a larger turbo you WILL see higher temps until ACTUAL SPOOLUP is reached, then once the charger is lit, it will keep the motor cool. In keeping the temps down with a large turbo, comes rpm, more rpm less throttle, less heat, crappy fuel mileage. I am just trying to clear this up, while Hohn maybe driving around with a set of "mach 4's" in his truck he cannot utilize all that power without more air.

Absolutely true. Right now my truck is protecting itself with boost limiting and stock defueling. With the MAD ECM I tested, I half expected some kind of failure (grenaded turbo or burnt clutch). Clutch survived and so did the turbo, but I doubt either would have lasted long term.



Now, I have no doubt that in present form (just m4s, no boost fooling) I could run this combo indefinitely. But I'm also seeing probably less than HALF of the power the injectors are capable of.



The reason that the ECM made such a huge change on my truck was because it not only added hp on its own, but it opened up some of the untapped potential of the injectors.



Right now, the truck defuels at 26psi or so. Without the defueling, these injectors could probably push the stock charger to 37-38psi with the WG blocked. Not smart and not safe long term.



There is another side to the small-turbo coin, however. That being backpressure/drivepressure. The small charger does light very soon (instantly in my case), and is probably much more fuel efficient in quick transients because it's better at converting fuel to power, not smoke.



But it all depends on driving style. If you had a larger charger and drove it in such a way as to not generate smoke (IOW, don't get ahead of the turbo), I'd bet you'd see BETTER mpg with a larger charger due to the greatly reduced drive pressure and pumping losses.





I'd consider a DZ to be the smallest charger that an M4 should have, and even then only with no wire tap. These injectors need something in the 450hp turbo range or better to really be cooled off if you have tapped the wire, imo.



I'll repeat my earlier suggestion to run smaller stick (m4) and tap the wire with low box settings.



I *AM* curious to see if the M5s are nearly as clean as the M4s. Until I bought the M4s, I would never have believed that an injector in this power range could be so streetable. I'd confidently recommend them.



I have no idea what kind of manners the m5s have, and I'd love to know. If they are as clean (or close) as the m4s, I might hafta upgrade



jh

 

[c-hawk]

I've had mach 4's, mach 5's and mach 7's (the current ones).



I really don't think the 7's smoke too much more then the 5's i had. However, as most people know... Don is always refining his work and i believe the current 4's and 7's are a newer design or revision so to speak then the current 5's are.



I definitely think the 4's or 5's can be streeted without problems. Really, I can drive my 7's with no problems (and just the smallest hint of smoke) if i'm careful with the go pedal.



I would say Hohn's suggestion of 4's with a wire tap would be a more enjoyable combo for you. The 4's are just an awesome injector. The 5's will work for you though if you decide to go that route.



Chris

 

[Luke Warmwater]

Indeed 4s, a Comp, and a B1-2 was an awsome combo. We'll see how 6s and a 66/14 II turbo works. Just took it for a short test drive at 8800' and smoke was minimal and seemed to clean up nicely. Can't wait to get down to lower altitude and pour the coals to it.