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DC approved oil but use cheap oil
- Thread starter CUMMINZ
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Just a stab at a hypothesis:
Take 2 new 6. 7's.
Put "best" oil in one, and "cheap" oil in the other.
(Forget about how long the oil will last,... we just now put it in. )
If the "best" oiled engine is operating under better conditions, re. reduced friction/wear or anything else, because of the oil, then THAT is "why we are concerned".
In other words, how frequently the oil needs to be changed is only one aspect of its use.
Naturally, our difficulty is determining whether or not the "best" oil has as much of any "other" advantages as the advertisers would have us believe.
I think there are some extensive threads here at TDR discussing the subject.
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Hey dawg,
I am not suggesting using Acme brand put out by the hound chasing the roadrunner.
If it looks like we are actually going to have to change oil every 3k then why use an oil @ $20. 00 a gallon when we can buy a brand name for $8. 00 a gallon? The rating is the same. Of course compairing apples to apples what ever DC calls for in oil requirement. I think my last oil change cost me $55. 00 filter included. That was Rotella. When I used Mobil 1 it was over $100. 00
I know my figures don't add up. The whole idea behind expensive oils was to get the extended life to 7500 miles and better. For example if AMSOIL boasts 7500 miles between changes and your oil change light goes on at 2000-3000 and it is truly a contamination problem you have no choice but to change it.
I am not suggesting using Acme brand put out by the hound chasing the roadrunner.
If it looks like we are actually going to have to change oil every 3k then why use an oil @ $20. 00 a gallon when we can buy a brand name for $8. 00 a gallon? The rating is the same. Of course compairing apples to apples what ever DC calls for in oil requirement. I think my last oil change cost me $55. 00 filter included. That was Rotella. When I used Mobil 1 it was over $100. 00
I know my figures don't add up. The whole idea behind expensive oils was to get the extended life to 7500 miles and better. For example if AMSOIL boasts 7500 miles between changes and your oil change light goes on at 2000-3000 and it is truly a contamination problem you have no choice but to change it.
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Think about it#@$%!
Fresh oil in 6. 7L #1 using highest grade AMSOIL at $1000. 00 gallon
Fresh oil in 6. 7L #2 using highest grade oil at $400. 00 gallon
Dump in both engines a pound of fine sand. . What do you got?
2 contaminated engines.
If it is truly a contamination problem that sensors are detecting then a bypass filter may be the answer.
Fresh oil in 6. 7L #1 using highest grade AMSOIL at $1000. 00 gallon
Fresh oil in 6. 7L #2 using highest grade oil at $400. 00 gallon
Dump in both engines a pound of fine sand. . What do you got?
2 contaminated engines.
If it is truly a contamination problem that sensors are detecting then a bypass filter may be the answer.
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my dodge dealer supplies me with lifetime free oil changes ..... however i have always used amsoil products in my other eqpt. My first oil change was @ 1k . . then at 3k oil change required light came on, I was concerned . My 6. 7 is showing oil cange required about every 1500 mi. my dobdge dealer is keeping his agrement to change my oil for free but he says i had an o2 sensor causing this oil to get sooty and they changed it (warranty) and it is still showing oil change required. And yes the oil that comes out is very sooty . I pull rarely . mostly a daily driver at this point in time. I beleive the egr is sending soot back around ti the intake and the soot is ending up in my oil rather than going out the tail pipe. My 6. 7 now has 10k on it and has had 3 free oil changes at the dealer anyone else??
Wiredawg
TDR MEMBER
Now that I better understand the comment... it's all about perceived value or benefit IMHO. Case and point... a friend runs full synthetic in his Ford and he changes the oil every 3K miles. In my mind, he's throwing out good oil and in his mind he has max protection of his investment.
I can discuss the merits of using good dino oil and running expensive synthetic. I'm running dino in my wife's 03 and my 93. I installed an Amsoil bypass filter, oil cooler and Amsoil 15W40 in my 02 about 10K miles ago. Going to do oil analysis and see where I stand. I ran 15W40 Rotella for 85K miles w/ oil changes every 5K miles and with great oil analysis. I have enough Amsoil to perform another oil change and at that point I will do another oil analysis to see if synthetic really justifies the cost for me.
Not try to start another oil war, just sharing the experience and decision process of my friend and myself in deciding what works best.
Finally, perhaps DC will come up with a fix to prevent the heavy sooting in the 6. 7s.
Wiredawg
I can discuss the merits of using good dino oil and running expensive synthetic. I'm running dino in my wife's 03 and my 93. I installed an Amsoil bypass filter, oil cooler and Amsoil 15W40 in my 02 about 10K miles ago. Going to do oil analysis and see where I stand. I ran 15W40 Rotella for 85K miles w/ oil changes every 5K miles and with great oil analysis. I have enough Amsoil to perform another oil change and at that point I will do another oil analysis to see if synthetic really justifies the cost for me.
Not try to start another oil war, just sharing the experience and decision process of my friend and myself in deciding what works best.
Finally, perhaps DC will come up with a fix to prevent the heavy sooting in the 6. 7s.
Wiredawg
My Oil Story
I'm going to keep my comments to myself but I would like to share an experience with you. I worked in a transmission engineering & design lab from 1979 to 1996 and these are actual results we experienced testing synthetic oils for use in our transmission.
I wrote this in the early 80's while the details were still fresh but I'm sure it still applies today.
Delvac1
Mobil makes a synthetic called Delvac-1 it is a 5w40 full synthetic like Mobil 1 except it is formulated for diesels. I run it year round in my Dodge Diesel and in the winter (block heater not plugged in) the engine turns over as nearly as fast as it does in the summer, and as Diesel owners know cranking speed is essential if a diesel is going to start in cold weather. It also provides for quick oil pressure buildup.
I worked in a General Electric Engineering Development Lab for 16 years developing the GE HMPT-500 Cross-Drive transmission used in the US Army's Bradley Fighting Vehicle.
This was a Hydro-mechanical 3 range steering transmission (utilizing ball piston pumps) and internal oil cooled brakes.
I was involved in a test to check the compatibility of Delvac 1 synthetic oil in this transmission.
Now a little background. We developed the transmission in a test cell with a torque shaft reading the input torque and speed and 2 dynamometers, one for each output. The cells were powered by Cummins VTA 903 Diesels. Initially the engines were 500 HP then were updated to 600 then 700 HP during transmission development using premium MIL spec 15w40 oil which was used in both engine and transmissions. Part of development required durability testing of the transmission which consisted of repetitions of a 6. 6 hour duty cycle which consisted of test points ranging from 10 to 30 minutes and 190 to 260 degrees. This test cycle was repeated for a total of 440 hours of actual point time Actual total run time was approximately 600 hours total including startup, warm-up and transition from point to point. Every 110 hours we performed a performance test and compared it to the data recorded before durability to determine if any problems were developing. This is where it gets interesting; we had to flush the transmission oil system prior to these 110-hour performance checks due to oil breakdown. This transmission being a Hydro-Mechanical steering transmission with internal oil cooled brakes would shear and breakdown the oil to the point where after 110 hours it would not pass the required pre-durability performance test points. The ARMY requested that Engineering perform a test of the compatibility of synthetics and chose Delvac-1 5w40. This test was exactly the same as the others. After 110 hours the transmission was tested for performance and it passed the performance test. It also passed at 220, 330, 440 hours with no oil changes. The transmission was removed for teardown and inspection and looked fine. Engineering was now very interested so it was decided to repeat the test with the same oil so another 440 hour test was performed with similar results. When the post durability test data was compared to the pre performance test data it was only off a couple percentage points and passed all test parameters after 880 hours of durability or a total of approximately 1200 hours.
After this experience I started using synthetic in all my vehicles. One of my old cars was a 1980 Peugeot. After an oil change the oil level would stay on the full mark until 3000 miles when it would just loose 1 quart regardless of the brand used so I decided to try Delvac 1 in it. In one instance because I was hospitalized I did not get a chance to even check the oil, when I did the car had 12,000 miles on the oil and I knew that there would be no oil on the stick or it would be like tar. When I pulled the stick I was amazed to see the oil at the full mark and was actually in good condition.
My father used to change his oil every 20000 miles using M 1 when it first came out and it currently has 200,000 miles on it and runs well. I thought he was crazy until I experienced for my self the advantages. In my Ford 1720 tractor I change it every 200 hours, Ford recommends 100 hours. It also turns over and starts much faster in sub zero weather with quicker oil pressure buildup. In my motorcycle I heard a noticeable reduction in transmission gear noise when I put Synthetic in my 1500cc Goldwing. I also use it in my commercial lawn mower engine and hydrostatic transmission. From what I have seen there is no comparison to synthetic oil; it is worth every penny especially if you value your investment. Delvac-1 is recommended for use in the hydrostatic drives of snow grooming equipment that encounter extreme low and high temperatures, hmmm that sounds like it could be a tractor situation. If it's worth buying it's worth using the best oil its cheap insurance. One added benefit is the ability to extend oil changes if monitored properly or heaven forbid forgotten.
I'm going to keep my comments to myself but I would like to share an experience with you. I worked in a transmission engineering & design lab from 1979 to 1996 and these are actual results we experienced testing synthetic oils for use in our transmission.
I wrote this in the early 80's while the details were still fresh but I'm sure it still applies today.
Delvac1
Mobil makes a synthetic called Delvac-1 it is a 5w40 full synthetic like Mobil 1 except it is formulated for diesels. I run it year round in my Dodge Diesel and in the winter (block heater not plugged in) the engine turns over as nearly as fast as it does in the summer, and as Diesel owners know cranking speed is essential if a diesel is going to start in cold weather. It also provides for quick oil pressure buildup.
I worked in a General Electric Engineering Development Lab for 16 years developing the GE HMPT-500 Cross-Drive transmission used in the US Army's Bradley Fighting Vehicle.
This was a Hydro-mechanical 3 range steering transmission (utilizing ball piston pumps) and internal oil cooled brakes.
I was involved in a test to check the compatibility of Delvac 1 synthetic oil in this transmission.
Now a little background. We developed the transmission in a test cell with a torque shaft reading the input torque and speed and 2 dynamometers, one for each output. The cells were powered by Cummins VTA 903 Diesels. Initially the engines were 500 HP then were updated to 600 then 700 HP during transmission development using premium MIL spec 15w40 oil which was used in both engine and transmissions. Part of development required durability testing of the transmission which consisted of repetitions of a 6. 6 hour duty cycle which consisted of test points ranging from 10 to 30 minutes and 190 to 260 degrees. This test cycle was repeated for a total of 440 hours of actual point time Actual total run time was approximately 600 hours total including startup, warm-up and transition from point to point. Every 110 hours we performed a performance test and compared it to the data recorded before durability to determine if any problems were developing. This is where it gets interesting; we had to flush the transmission oil system prior to these 110-hour performance checks due to oil breakdown. This transmission being a Hydro-Mechanical steering transmission with internal oil cooled brakes would shear and breakdown the oil to the point where after 110 hours it would not pass the required pre-durability performance test points. The ARMY requested that Engineering perform a test of the compatibility of synthetics and chose Delvac-1 5w40. This test was exactly the same as the others. After 110 hours the transmission was tested for performance and it passed the performance test. It also passed at 220, 330, 440 hours with no oil changes. The transmission was removed for teardown and inspection and looked fine. Engineering was now very interested so it was decided to repeat the test with the same oil so another 440 hour test was performed with similar results. When the post durability test data was compared to the pre performance test data it was only off a couple percentage points and passed all test parameters after 880 hours of durability or a total of approximately 1200 hours.
After this experience I started using synthetic in all my vehicles. One of my old cars was a 1980 Peugeot. After an oil change the oil level would stay on the full mark until 3000 miles when it would just loose 1 quart regardless of the brand used so I decided to try Delvac 1 in it. In one instance because I was hospitalized I did not get a chance to even check the oil, when I did the car had 12,000 miles on the oil and I knew that there would be no oil on the stick or it would be like tar. When I pulled the stick I was amazed to see the oil at the full mark and was actually in good condition.
My father used to change his oil every 20000 miles using M 1 when it first came out and it currently has 200,000 miles on it and runs well. I thought he was crazy until I experienced for my self the advantages. In my Ford 1720 tractor I change it every 200 hours, Ford recommends 100 hours. It also turns over and starts much faster in sub zero weather with quicker oil pressure buildup. In my motorcycle I heard a noticeable reduction in transmission gear noise when I put Synthetic in my 1500cc Goldwing. I also use it in my commercial lawn mower engine and hydrostatic transmission. From what I have seen there is no comparison to synthetic oil; it is worth every penny especially if you value your investment. Delvac-1 is recommended for use in the hydrostatic drives of snow grooming equipment that encounter extreme low and high temperatures, hmmm that sounds like it could be a tractor situation. If it's worth buying it's worth using the best oil its cheap insurance. One added benefit is the ability to extend oil changes if monitored properly or heaven forbid forgotten.
Thanks TB, ... interesting report!
With Cumminz's "sand" idea in mind, it seems the question might be "If good syn oil is used, at what point of added soot (extended change interval) does the engine get to a net-loss, rather than a net-gain, state from the syn use, ...compared with dino use with the fac-spec change intervals?'
Different wording: "How much soot can be added to syn before it becomes inferior to relatively soot-free (more frequently changed) dino?"
Joseph Donnelly
TDR MEMBER
With your new Turbo Diesel, the best protection for it is preservation of the factory warranty. Use oil that meets the required CJ specification, and change it at the recommended intervals for your type of driving. Keep records of date, mileage, receipts of oil and filter purchases, etc. to validate your claim that you met all requirements on the owner. The expensive synthetics have not been recommended at low mileage in the Cummins engines, and in a few thousand miles, their advantage of long-life base stock will not come to the forefront. Ability of the additives to capture soot and to neutralize acids from combustion will be the main concern. Special filters help with metals from wear, and such, but won't pull tiny soot particles out of the oil. That is why it becomes black, and why a fresh additive package is needed periodically to trap more soot (meaning change the oil).
I am sure at some point my personal love for amsoil will pressure me to remove the air freshener from my truck and straight pipe it. I hope it does not offend any one. But i feel the soot is still being put into our environment even as waste oil which will still be used as road asphalt or even worse the need for even more oil. By the way I use my truck as a daily driver mostly off road at the time. I pull a backhoe and other farm eqpt. around a very large farm. I use my 110 Cu. In. dyna to commute back & forth on road. I do have to drive the dodge on road to get it to the dealerto get my free oil change approx. every 1500 miles . DPF the space shuttle if you really want to slow down global warming. also what happened to people posting on 6. 7 dpf removal as i use mine off road i would like to know how i can cut down on wasting oil.
Loren
TDR MEMBER
grasmo,
I am certainly not offended, but won't you have problems with the engine if you remove the air freshener? I am sure that the new engines have a sensor there to tell the engine when to clean it. Will the missing signal cause other problems with drivability? Inquiring minds want to know.
Loren
Mr. Donnally,
That was a great report, in my first post I did refer to using DC approved oil and I would never put any oil in my cummins that was not approved. Among all approved oils ( could for sure be wrong) there probably is very little difference between them. I have owned 4 DC cummins trucks and always changed oil most of the time sooner than was required. I never placed syn. oils in them before about 12k-15k because I felt they needed a good break-in time. I then went to all syn. oil in every hole on the truck. I have always felt syn. oils were a good deal. BUT I am questioning ( really appreciate all these comments) with DC recommending 7500 for changes and less for superduty (not ferd) why we are all seeing the idiot light or message come up as often as it is. I don't have a problem with changing every 3k but I am questioning at that short interval is it really necessary to use syn. oil. I am hoping that after maybe 15k the truck will settle down and maybe DC will get all flashs in place correct and all the mod makers of all kinds can stop making big promises. This DPF thing in the long run may be actually be great for my grand kids but it sure is the biggest hurtle we all have faced since Tito. I still love my 6. 7 and the 68rfe. :-laf
I have 8500 hard towing miles on my 6. 7 (25k gross) on the BlueRidge and I still get service light now at 2k.
CUMMINZ
That was a great report, in my first post I did refer to using DC approved oil and I would never put any oil in my cummins that was not approved. Among all approved oils ( could for sure be wrong) there probably is very little difference between them. I have owned 4 DC cummins trucks and always changed oil most of the time sooner than was required. I never placed syn. oils in them before about 12k-15k because I felt they needed a good break-in time. I then went to all syn. oil in every hole on the truck. I have always felt syn. oils were a good deal. BUT I am questioning ( really appreciate all these comments) with DC recommending 7500 for changes and less for superduty (not ferd) why we are all seeing the idiot light or message come up as often as it is. I don't have a problem with changing every 3k but I am questioning at that short interval is it really necessary to use syn. oil. I am hoping that after maybe 15k the truck will settle down and maybe DC will get all flashs in place correct and all the mod makers of all kinds can stop making big promises. This DPF thing in the long run may be actually be great for my grand kids but it sure is the biggest hurtle we all have faced since Tito. I still love my 6. 7 and the 68rfe. :-laf
I have 8500 hard towing miles on my 6. 7 (25k gross) on the BlueRidge and I still get service light now at 2k.
CUMMINZ
Ronnie... . i just turned 4k on my 6. 7,no indication from the overhead console to change the oil as yet... . i'm planning on just using the CJ4 oil like Joe said,probably Rotella triple T and of course Fleetguard filters from Geno's... . i'm SUPPOSED to get a "free" 1st oil change from my Dealer,after that i'll do my own as usual... . kinda wish i still had my '01 !!!... oh well... i managed 236k from it,thats the most mileage i've ever managed to accumulate on a vehicle yet!... ... . maybe by the time i make it to May Madness '08 i will have "bonded" with this truck... . i can't quite explain it,but i just can't seem to get "excited" about this truck... even the thought of modifications doesn't fire me up. 
... still haven't added my aux. fuel tank yet..... maybe i just need more drugs..... LOL... . later Brotha-Man... kiss Viv for me... tom
... still haven't added my aux. fuel tank yet..... maybe i just need more drugs..... LOL... . later Brotha-Man... kiss Viv for me... tom
rbattelle
TDR MEMBER
Very interesting commentary, TBartlett1!
Was the same transmission used with both oils, or did you also swap to a new transmission for testing the Delvac synthetic?
Of course, the test says nothing about the specific component protection provided by each oil on an instantaneous basis - only over time. What I mean is, based on this test we know that the conventional MIL oil won't remain within specification past ~110 hours, whereas Delvac will.
The test says nothing regarding the relative protection of the synthetic and the conventional oil at less than ~110 hours.
If the same transmission was used for all these tests, and after the last test that transmission was torn down and shown to still be "good", then we can be reasonably assured that the conventional oil can be relied upon to provide equal protection to the synthetic up to ~110 hours. In other words, if the transmission oil was changed in ~110 hour intervals, there's no advantage (in terms of wear) in going to synthetic.
Ryan
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