DC Sells AZ. Proving Ground

[Buffalo]

DC has just sold it's AZ Proving Ground west of Phoenix. This a 5,500 acre parcel & sold for $312 million dollars, which, is a state record for a land sale.



As many as 30,000 homes could be built along with, possibly, one of Simon's trademark big malls. The buyers are builders Toll Bros. & Meritage Homes & mall developer Simon Property Group.



DC held the proving ground since 1958. I wonder if they will be moving it to Mexico, as GM did with their local proving ground in the SE Phoenix Valley.



These "desert" proving grounds were built in the "sticks", years ago but, with the massive growth in population in the Phoenix area, they are now being overrun with houses. However, it will be awhile before the DC proving grounds will be totally built-up.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[Tink]

Buffalo - hint hint... DCX just sold their off-highway diesel business, too. Raising money selling the proving ground, the off-highway business... to buy something more relevant to their automotive business maybe? What with all of the demand for higher fuel economy in vehicles, and the owner loyalty of their diesel pick-ups, can you think of an acquisition that would be in alignment with these two facts?

 

[SGibson]

Or maybe a company selling off all the attributes that made thier aquisition what is was in the first place, so they can sub out all the work that used to be done in house to save money to pay off all those millionaire UAW workers, Or something like that.

 

[TFucili]

beware

DC has just sold it's AZ Proving Ground west of Phoenix. This a 5,500 acre parcel & sold for $312 million dollars, which, is a state record for a land sale.



As many as 30,000 homes could be built along with, possibly, one of Simon's trademark big malls. The buyers are builders Toll Bros. & Meritage Homes & mall developer Simon Property Group.



DC held the proving ground since 1958. I wonder if they will be moving it to Mexico, as GM did with their local proving ground in the SE Phoenix Valley.



These "desert" proving grounds were built in the "sticks", years ago but, with the massive growth in population in the Phoenix area, they are now being overrun with houses. However, it will be awhile before the DC proving grounds will be totally built-up.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

It may not take as long as you think, or hope. I've seen what Toll Bros. did to my formerly rural part of NJ, and it's amazing the speed with which they can triple or quadruple the population of a community, or create one from nothingness with NO regard for the consequences of taxes and infrastructure burden. They and their ilk are the bubonic plague coming to attack your way of life.



We are planning to come to AZ this winter to look for our own little slice of quietude. We were thinking about the Wickenburg area, as I have a friend building in Buckeye. Scarry stuff happening out there now, though.

 

[Buffalo]

TFucili,

I don't blame you for wanting to go to Wickenburg. It's a beautiful area. Kind of hilly & a little higher in elevation, than Phoenix, which makes it a little cooler in the summer. It's about 45/50 miles NW of Phoenix. Just far enough away to feel you are in your own community but, close enough for shopping hospitals, car dealers & other ammenities the big city has.



If you decide to build in Wickenburg, I would consider a good fire sprinkler system in the house. Over Thanksgiving, a beautiful home burned, almost to the ground, before the fire dept. could get there. One of our news helicopters was doing a morning news show, up there, & while flying back to Phoenix, noticed the smoke. They hovered over that house while the neighbors tried to put the fire out with garden hoses, which, didn't work very well. It must have taken 25 minutes for a fire truck to get on-scene. Then others started coming in from neighboring communities. But, there aren't many communities close to Wickenburg. And, they have Volunteer Fire Dept's. , also. They seem to take longer to get on-scene. My guess is that fire protection will improve in the future as the town grows.

I would, also, encourage you to put a desert landscape (rock lawns) close to your house. There is less likelyhood of a brush fire compromising your home. Less lawn to cut & water, also.



I don't mean to sound so negative about this area. It's a beautiful town & I would love to live there. But, you can make a more informed decision knowing the good along with the bad. The good, in Wickenburg, definately outweighs the bad.



Another thing you may want to consider is that there is talk about a real estate bubble affecting the home values, here. It's generally considered to be overvalued in some parts of AZ. For instance, Prescott is considered to be 46% overvalued. The Phoenix area, 35%, etc. Don't know about Wickenburg. Rather than buying, now, you may want to wait just a bit & see what is going to happen. It may save you from paying high dollar for a property that may go down in value, a little later.



I do not consider myself to be a real estate expert, in any way. However, I do own an extra piece of horse property (1. 26 acres), here in the Phoenix area, & am thinking about selling it so as not to take the hit if the bubble does happen. So, I do watch the trends, a bit.



On the good side, the AZ area is very popular with a lot of investrment in it. If things do go down, in value, I don't think it will be catastrophic. Our economy seems to be pretty healthy. Lots of people like me, baby-boomers, are thinking of retiring & moving to a warmer climate than they are from. (Hell, I moved here from Detroit back in 1976 & would never go back. ) Last year, over 200,000 people moved into AZ & predominantly, the Phoenix area. That really stimulates an areas economy. With that much interest in an area, builders and other companies seem to feel comfortable "investing" in that area.

I found what you had to say about Toll Bros. interesting. A number of builders are now "leap-frogging" far out into the South & W/NWest desert areas. They build communities, sell them out & then the "back-fill" land between the city limits & the new community becomes valuable. The "far-out" land can be purchased reasonably. It the beginning, a community called Johnson Ranch did that in the SE Valley. Some said they were nuts to build so far out & that people would not want to commute that far to & from work & play. That place sold out in nothing flat because the land was cheap & houses could be built more afforably. Now, lots of builders are doing the same thing.

If you come out here, this winter. Get in touch with me. I'd like to meet you. Whatever happens, you will LOVE Wickenburg!!!



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[TravisG]

Buffalo- I cant agree w/ you more. Especially about buying land far out and bringing up the value between it and the city. I own a house in Queen Creek and it is for sale right now. I can not beleive what people are asking for land between U. S. 60 and Hunt Hwy. Beautiful area just had to get out. Happy New Year. Enjoy the weather.

 

[Buffalo]

TravisG,



Depending on how long you have owned your Queen Creek home, you should "make-a-buck" off the sale of that home. This past year, home values have gone up over 40%, here. Queen Creek is a desireable area, also.



The Johnson Ranch I was talking about is just a bit SE from where you lived.



Hope you like your new area.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[TravisG]

I will do fine as soon as I sell it. Johnson Ranch is a fast growing area and will be a lot nicer when they get all the roads fixed in and out of there.

 

[Buffalo]

TravisG,

Don't be too concerned if it takes a bit longer to sell your Queen Cr. home, now. The market has "cooled-down" a bit. In the last year or two, houses would go on the market & there would be a "bidding war" for them. I saw houses in my neighborhood that would have an "open house" on saturday & they would not take any offers. Sunday, they would have an auction & the highest bidder got it.

We had a lot of investors, especially from CA, come in "literally" by the bus loads, pull up to a new home subdivision & each person would buy a home. They would then drive back to CA.

After awhile, the builders started to add a clause to the contract that basically said that if You sold your home within a year or two after taking possesion of it, the builder had the first rights to purchase it back from you for what you paid for it. That took the profit out of the purchase. Before this clause, people would hang a "for sale" sign on the house right after taking possesion & make a $50,000 profit without ever moving in. My ex-partner did this many times and made a three quarters of a million, in the process. Wish I had been as smart as him.

Since the investors were taken out of the new home market, they set their sights on the resale market. Many had cash & the deal could take place quickly. New, non investor buyers, often don't have cash & have to rely on mortgages & qualifying, which, takes more time. Homes are still selling but, it does take a bit longer, now.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[TFucili]

Buffalo,

Thanks for the excellent info. People tend to dwell on the "good stuff", and I keep asking what's NOT good. My friend has been renting in Gilbert while he is waiting for his house to be built and he must think I'm the eternal pessimist for always wondering what "the bads" are.



I'm not 100% on Wickenburg, but we are trying to somewhat narrow our focus, so when we come out there we can get something accomplished, rather than drive around starry eyed. It seems like a quaint sort of rural area without being "nowhere". Services are of some concern, though, as I am trying to get my folks to relocate and they are getting on in age, and not the best health.



Anyway, trying to look at real estate through the computer monitor is not the hot ticket. When we get out there I will look you up.



Tom

 

[Buffalo]

TFucili,

Have you considered one of the Sun City projects for your parents? They are in the far NW part of the Valley & in reasonably close proximity to Wickenburg. It's a straight shot down Hwy. 60 (Grand Ave. ) from one to another.

My Grandparents lived there for 26 years, until their passing, & loved it. My Mom has lived there since 1975 & she loves it, also. Everything there is set up for convenience. Shopping, hospitals, doctors, golf courses, swimming pools & hobby centers are very close to where you live. My mom walks almost everywhere. My Grandmother didn't drive & walked to just about everywhere she needed to go. The whole place is set up to be as convenient, as possible.

Many of the homes are smaller but, efficient. Costs less to heat & cool. My Mom's house has a big 2-car garage with a large attached storage/laundry room, 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, large kitchen, liv. /din. rooms & a lanai (smaller type of family room). Her utility bills are amazingly cheap.

The vast majority of people living there are retired, in the same age bracket with common interests & needs.

If you are going to build, out here, we have some problems with soil issues. Some areas are prone to "expansive soil" problems. When it gets wet or dry, the soil can move a bit & if your house is built on it, it can crack the foundation & other parts of the house. What people are doing now is called "post tensioning" the slab. Basically, it's installing cables into the cement slab, before it's poured & once the cement has hardened, you torque (stretch) the cables. This creates a very strong slab that "floats" on top of the soil in the event that the soil would move. Seems to work & doesn't add much to the cost of the house. Maybe a couple of thousand dollars. But, it's a good safety factor, expecially if you're going to install a lot of ceramic tile throughout the house. Carpeting will move with the slab, a bit. Ceramic tile won't!!!

Another problem is "fissures" or fairly deep cracks in the soil. This seems to be more of a problem in some of the low desert floor areas in the south valley between Phoenix & Tucson. It's mostly a problem created by the depletion of ground water. Proper soil tests should indicate if any of these problems could be an issue on your land.



The East Valley has some nice areas, also. The Superstition Mtn. area (Gold Canyon Ranch, etc. ) is beautiful as is the Fountain Hills area (just E. of Scottsdale). There are retirement areas in the E. Valley, also, for your folks.



One of the things about the W. Valley is that the winds usually flow out of the W. towards the E. We have a smog problem (dust from farming & exhaust) in the valley. All the smog generated in the Valley has a tendency to blow towards the E. So, if you live in the far W. Valley, you don't get much of the smog. The E. Valley gets it. If any of you have breathing problems, that may be something to consider. However, the E. Valley, historically, has been the more popular area.



Well, I'm starting to write a novel, now. At any rate, I hope some of this helps you with your decision. I still like Wickenburg. It has a nice Western feel, to it, which I like. The rest of the Valley has become very cosmopolitan.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[TFucili]

Buffalo,

Yes, indeed, Sun City is my current goal for my folks. It just needs to be their's :-{} Interestingly, my dad recently ran into a former local resident who is now residing in Sun City, and he went on at a great rate about how great it is out there and he would never move back east. Funny how a five minute conversation with a virtual stranger carries more weight than my pleadings.



I read some of the news on AZ Central.com daily, and have taken note of the fissure problem. What's perplexing is the maps are not up to date, so how can you take the realtors affirmations seriously? Post tensioning I had not seen. Interesting.



Thanks again for all the excellent info!!



Tom

 

[Buffalo]

TFucili,

Post tensioning is an acceptable way of dealing with the expansive soil problems. Many builders are using it. The Anthem community, N. on I-17 just S. of the town of New River has a real problem with expansive soils. In the beginning, a lot of houses were cracking. Not much fun, for the owner or the builder if he had to correct it.

There is a company, here in the Valley, that specializes in sinking pilings under your slab & that is supposed to really stabilize your houses platform. Can't remember the name of the company but, can find it, if needed. They might be a good resource for answering your questions since, that is their field of expertise.

I don't know much about the fissure problem. This seems to be a fairly new problem that is common to some areas. Now that communities are being built in former desert and farm areas, people are noticing the problem. the fissures can be large cracks that form. Big enough to fall into. A number of feet deep.

Regarding the Sun City area, there is a small segment of retirement age people that don't want to live there. They seem to be the ones that don't want to live with "all those old people". They also like to live in areas with young family's with children, thinking that being surrounded by young people will keep them younger, also. Most of the people that live there really like it. There's a lot of people in your age bracket with common interests, and a lot to do, if you want to.

Just another note, the property taxes, in the original Sun Cities, are very low becuase, when it was established, they didn't allow children, therefore, no need for schools. Paying for schools is a big chunk of your property tax payment. I think my Mom pays between $3-400/year.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[Buffalo]

TFucili,

I just remembered the name of the company that reinforces concrete slabs:



Arizona Ram Jack

3841 E. Superior Ave.

Phoenix, AZ. 85040

602-470-1296



Hope this helps. They may be able to answer any questions about the fissure problems, also.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[Buffalo]

TravisG,



Just out of curiosity, what was it about AZ that you didn't care for? Most people seem to like it.



I'm not trying to "flame you", in any way. Just curious.



I know this place isn't for everyone.

Did you move to Wisconsin to be closer to the high horsepower activity in the IN area. I couldn't blame you for that move, at all. I've been back to IN for the Schied Diesel Extravaganza & Thunder in Muncie. Also, went to the Turbo Diesel Nationals in Columbus, IN, a few years ago.

IN has to be the "center of the universe" for diesel activity. Very nice people back there, also. I had a GREAT TIME each time I went & am looking forward to going back again, this year.

I've read some of your replies on the "Competition Forum" & see that you know some of the "Big Shooters" in pulling & racing, back in the Midwest. That would, probably, be enough to get me to want to be in that area.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[TFucili]

Just another note, the property taxes, in the original Sun Cities, are very low becuase, when it was established, they didn't allow children, therefore, no need for schools. Paying for schools is a big chunk of your property tax payment. I think my Mom pays between $3-400/year.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

Ah yes, school taxes. On our 2200 square foot rancher on a farm assessed property here in the People's Republic of New Jersey,the Garden State, our tax bill is nearly $11,000/year. About 2/3 of that is school tax.



Thanks,

Tom

 

[Buffalo]

TFulici,



WOW!!!!!



As of, right now, I'm going to quit complaining about my property taxes.



I'm paying $1,037. 26/year on my $200,000+ house in NW Phoenix & $1,233. 72/year on my 1. 26 acre horse property ($230,000, land only, no buildings) also, in NW Phoenix.



THANK YOU!!! You made my day!!!



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[TravisG]

Buffalo- As I sit here in the living room in 30 degree weather, I love Arizona. :-laf

My wife is a booking agent for a public speaker here in Wisconsin and they wanted her to move a little closer. So we did.

I loved Arizona. I am a Carpenter and did not like the wage and the quality of work that was being done by several companies that my crew framed for. As for the wage I think that has a lot to do w/ the flood of fellas coming from down South. I am by no means a racist but I do believe in taking pride in your work and not working for the bottom dollar just to have a job. the quality of work I believe is from the rapid growth in and around Phoenix and just wanting to get the job done. Sorry about the rant that is just kind of how I feel.

I am glad to be back in the Midwest because it sucks not being able to drive your own truck to Scheids or IRP!! You got some heavy hitters right there in Phoenix. Fred Swanson's truck is no slouch. Neither is Bens over in Mesa. About the only other guy I ever saw was a fella w/ a Suburban with a Cummins. That was a sweet ride.



Talk at ya later. Happy New Year.

 

[TFucili]

TFulici,



WOW!!!!!



As of, right now, I'm going to quit complaining about my property taxes.



I'm paying $1,037. 26/year on my $200,000+ house in NW Phoenix & $1,233. 72/year on my 1. 26 acre horse property ($230,000, land only, no buildings) also, in NW Phoenix.



THANK YOU!!! You made my day!!!



Joe F. (Buffalo)

Glad I could make your day



When we built our house ten years ago the taxes were about half what they are now, and we thought they were ridiculous then. They are building a new high school, so we're really fixing to get hammered soon . Also, our good friends Toll Bros. is working on a sub-division that would require our new elementary school to expand substantially . If my income would rise like the taxes I would be livin' large .