Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) DC won't warrenty 6spd w/ fastcoolers.

[Gary - K7GLD]

I've said it before, and will again - I started modding my truck as soon as it hit my driveway, FULLY accepting that the warranty was gone - sure, I'll TRY to get anything I feel appropriate fixed on DC's dime, but if they refuse, end of story - actually, they DID replace my passenger side mirror, with no attemt at voiding my warranty because of the Comp box...



The truck is mine, I have my own personal ideas as to how I want it to look, sound and perform, and derned certain am NOT about to wait 7 years or 100,000 miles for that to happen, or try to somehow "force" DC to cover my butt if *I* make an aftermarket "engineering mistake", or try to remove or hide it to fraudulently trick them into it...



*I* don't much appreciate it when folks lie to me or try to trick me into doing something I wouldn't otherwise - nor will I use the worn excuse that dealerships are subhuman and don't DESERVE the same common respect and courtesy we expect and demand for ourselves.

 

[tbrudder]

Gary--you're exactly right. If I put a Comp box on (one day... ) and it smokes my VP-44, fine. My problem, I'll pay to fix it. If DD-3s smoke my clutch, I'll pay for that, too. No sense trying to hide it when it's my fault.



But for D/C trying to use anything as an excuse to get out of warranty--sorry, not buying it. They might try to say that since I changed my own oil a month before, say, I get the dreaded #53-block-crack, it's my fault for 'modifying' the engine. If I've got documentation that proves the oil meets the same requirements as the Dodge fill, the oil filter the same, an oil analysis that says the oil is good for thousands more miles, a letter from Fleetguard saying the filter is in good condition, and documentation that there have been numerous other cases of the block cracking in the same place due to manufacturing flaws... well, let's just say I'm not going to lie down and take that.



I doubt the rest of you would, either. Question is, where do we draw the line? Oil changes? LP relocation? Power mods? If you know, for a fact, that what you have done to your vehicle is not the cause of the failure, are you going to let D/C back out on their warranty contract?



This is why Magnuson-Moss was enacted in the first place--to keep dealers from voiding warranties if we didn't do all our service with their parts. It's also what small claims courts are for--when arbitration doesn't work, and the monies involved aren't sufficient for a real civil trial.



I'm glad Turboman is getting things worked out without all that, but that we, as a society, have allowed the corporations to get away with what they do daily...



I dunno. I'm just a dumb engineer, guys--the only wrenches I turn are on my own vehicles, and I'm still working my way up on that. But if I told the USAF they'd have to buy a new nav unit when one of ours died (because of a bad part), because they let one of their guys install it in the airplane instead of one of our field engineers... well, let's just say it wouldn't work, and I shouldn't expect it to.



Chrysler shouldn't expect it to, either.



--Ty

 

[jponder]

Guys, I hear ya! But come on and open your eyes for a sec!



1) Should guages bust your warranty?

2) Should a 4 inch exhaust void your warranty?

3) Should bigger tires void your Warranty?



I mean MM was put in place to fight those kinds of things. There has to be some kind of common sense working there. To keep on topic then... ...



4) would a transmission cooler bust your warranty?



How can a transmission cooler bust your warranty? Unless it was leaking or something.



MM is a good thing. Everyone should have 2 trucks and if one goes down and DC tries to put some blanket denial on it then you ought to be able to fight them. Or at least throw the ball in their court where they have a chance to beat you fair and square. The problem is no one wants to sit on a lawsuit for a year or two. And yes it can take that long. We have had a lawsuit working for a year and 1/2 on some timber property. They are going to have to beat us. Sometimes you got to stand up for what is right.



If you dont have an extra truck or the gumption to stand up for what is right, then fine. But dont sit here and tell us that we are our on Warranty Station when we have made changes that have no possible way of causing the problem.



Most Lawyers have no desire whatsoever to let a judge decide anything. Most judges will make the right call.



I know this aint going to fly with most of yall, but its true! I hope I get a chance to do it and I will! I just need a good 12 valve to back me up while I wait for VICTORY! We have all got too passive in our old age.

 

[Sticks]

AMEN JPONDER!

 

[y-knot]

Point is you have to have a line, and it can not be one that moves. There would be no justice if it was OK for me, and not for you.



Also, did you ever think about what happens when you go to larger tires?? You change the whole dynamics of the the truck. Everything is affected, brakes, suspension, transmission, all are effected by the increased weight, rolling resistance. Hanging larger meats means adding much more weight, which increases wear on all un-sprung pieces. Adding a cooler might seem harmless, but what about the guy that added one, had a leak, now wants a new trany because he toasted his? The list can go on forever. The only logical stand would be zero tolerance, and I can take that, not just with Dodge but on all vehicles. At least you know where the line is, and you will be treated the same as everyone else. Modify it and you pay for it.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

GEE Y, you wouldn't suggest an unscrupulous owner would actually screw up a cooler install, leak out all the lube, blow the transmission, then refill before taking it to the dealer for that dandy FREE warranty?



SHEESH, next, you be claiming SOME guys actually REMOVE stuff like EZ boxes before taking their trucks in for new clutches and related drivetrain failures...



What an untrusting, suspicious soul...

 

[mberry]

My turn!

Originally posted by y-knot

Point is you have to have a line, and it can not be one that moves. There would be no justice if it was OK for me, and not for you.



Also, did you ever think about what happens when you go to larger tires?? You change the whole dynamics of the the truck. Everything is affected, brakes, suspension, transmission, all are effected by the increased weight, rolling resistance. Hanging larger meats means adding much more weight, which increases wear on all un-sprung pieces. Adding a cooler might seem harmless, but what about the guy that added one, had a leak, now wants a new trany because he toasted his? The list can go on forever. The only logical stand would be zero tolerance, and I can take that, not just with Dodge but on all vehicles. At least you know where the line is, and you will be treated the same as everyone else. Modify it and you pay for it.

If we were to use that logic, then we couldn't haul anything in the bed because that changes the dynamics of the truck. The added weight, rolling resistance, wear, etc. all increase when you haul somthing. Does that mean you CAN'T put a camper in the bed unless you are willing to void your warranty? Or, tow that nice 5th wheel or tag-along because of tongue/pin weight?



Just something to think about here, but my truck came with 256 tires. Did DC add heavier springs or wheel bearings because of the greater weight and rolling resistance? No they didn't. Did they void their own warranty because DC themselves put bigger tires on my truck than the 245's that are standard? Again, no.



I know the issue is not that cut and dry, but please!! If I add an EZ or any other brand of box I will take the responsibility when something breaks. But to give DC the benefit of the doubt in this case is preposterous to me. Doing anything to our trucks to improve the reliability and reduce wear on the components shouldn't even be considered for voiding a warranty unless as Gary pointed out that the installation was done incorrectly. Not giving anyone a free pass there Gary.



We all know how these companies work. They put the cheapest lubes they can find for their application in at the factory. I know I didn't void my warranty by changing my axle lube to a higher quality lube than DC factory fill.



A no tolerance policy is impractical and unnecessary imho. It just wouldn't work.



Off soapbox now. Flame suit on.



Mark.

 

[tbrudder]

I'm with you, Mark.



Gary--yeah, I suppose that could happen. But I could change my oil, forget to put the drain plug in, run it with no oil, sieze the engine, figure out what I've done, replace the plug, refill the oil, and have it towed in.



Does this mean D/C should be able to void anyone's warranty because they changed their own oil, and now their engine's broken?



Yeah, there's unscrupulous people out there, and it could happen. Just because it could, doesn't mean it has. Where I work, we have a group dedicated to failure analysis. Something comes back broken and the systems guys can't figure it out, they handle it. They can determine whether that system processor failed because one of the assembly guys zapped a fragile part with static and it took awhile to fail, or it failed becaue the Air Force guy hooking it up in the airplane jammed the connector on the wrong way, and a pin that was supposed to be a 28 VDC, 0. 2A output instead got directly connected to the 115VAC 400Hz aircraft primary power. Then we know who pays to repair it.



If Chrysler thinks you broke it, fine--prove it. It's modified? Law says it doesn't matter. Let them send my transmission/engine/fuel pump off to an independent laboratory for analysis. If the lab says it failed due to a manufacturing flaw, Chrysler pays them, fixes it and says have-a-nice-day-sir-sorry-for-the-trouble. If they say it failed because I added a part that caused undue stress or impeded lubrication, then I pay for the analysis and the repair.



Sounds fair to me.



--Ty

 

[Oil Burner]

Just something to think about here, but my truck came with 256 tires. Did DC add heavier springs or wheel bearings because of the greater weight and rolling resistance? No they didn't. Did they void their own warranty because DC themselves put bigger tires on my truck than the 245's that are standard? Again, no.

I am sure that D/C did an engineering study on the system components. I remember doing some dynamic modeling on a suspension system and that any increase in load can have large effects on the system as a whole. That said, D/C must have been confident that the addition of the 265's was within spec. The problem is, if 265's are o. k. , then 44" boggers will be fine. So then you have goofballs running around with this huge rotating mass and D/C has to float the bill when things break. They just have to draw the line somewhere.

Where I work, we have a group dedicated to failure analysis. Something comes back broken and the systems guys can't figure it out, they handle it.

Ty, that is definately an essential part of business or government. But, imagine if your analysis guys had to evaluate all of the "redneck engineering" that was performed by everyone who used the end product and thought they could make it better. My point is, D/C would be faced with a huge number of investigations in every failure. The quick way out is to say, "if you modify it, you are your own warranty station. " I just don't see how we can expect D/C to disect every part that fails at every service center. They would never catch up to the failures. While some of the mods we perform are very well researched and well engineered, you know there are 10 wackos behind you doing things to their trucks that shouldn't be done. I know that is tough on the few people that modify their trucks intelligently, but the other 90 percent make it impossible for D/C to warranty mods.

Now I'll put my flame suit on. Mine's made of polyester and soaked in good ole' #2.

-Jason

 

[tbrudder]

Originally posted by JStull

Ty, that is definately an essential part of business or government. But, imagine if your analysis guys had to evaluate all of the "redneck engineering" that was performed by everyone who used the end product and thought they could make it better. <snip>

Jason, you certainly have a point. A lot of people do very, very stupid things to their vehicles. And yes, it would be impractical to do a failure analysis on everything that comes in, but there are times it's warranted, I think. If D/C knows they have reliability problems on certain parts *cough*lift pump*cough*, and tries to cover up failures they know damn well were caused by that with the 'sorry-modified' line... well, that's a problem, and that's where Magnuson-Moss came from.



Like it or no, it is the law, until such time some judges/lawyers decide it's not.



If I was going to be out a significant amount of money for a repair I knew wasn't my fault, I'd seriously consider funding an engineering analysis, and tacking the fee for that onto whatever the repair costs were when I filed in small claims court. If enough people did, I think OEMs would behave more fairly. You know it's their fault, they know it's their fault, you and they both know an analysis will prove it--they'll honor their warranty.



If they know you broke it, you threaten a lawsuit after an analysis that will prove you broke it--they'll laugh.



That's how it should work. If not, they might as well start welding the hood shut at the factory.



--Ty

 

[Oil Burner]

Oh, I agree on the lift pump. Someone at D/C should be taken out back and slapped over that one. There certainly comes a point when a failure occurs more often than predicted and an analysis should be done by D/C. The lift pump on 98. 5-02 trucks would fall under that scope. But fast coolers on a transmission don't warrant a second look, IMO. Again, D/C has to draw the line somewhere and there are just too many people that think they know more than the engineers at Dodge and/or Cummins. I just put myself in the position of being the head of failure analysis at Dodge and your boss walks in and says: "guess what... your department will investigate EVERY failure from now on and make sure each and every report will hold up in court. " I would just open the bottle at that point and take a looooong tug of whiskey.

But I am sure that you and I along with the other sane people will continue to modify our vehicles intelligently. And hopefully not end up in a bad situation.

BTW, you've gotta love the TDR for some good debates to fuel the brain every now and again!

Have a nice weekend, good talking to you all!

-Jason

 

[y-knot]

You still just do not get it, I guess the people that only see things that benefit their cause, wouldn't? Truthfully I care very little for the ME,ME, ME crowd. They are always the ones with their hands out first, and the the loudest winners then something happens. There seems to be a whole generation of them, and that is probably one of our nations growing problems. Same ones that vote to send others to fight for their cause, get don't dare think about serving themselves or allowing their sons or daughters to serve. Dodge has really no way to tell what anyone hauls in there pickup bed, they rate the trucks capacity and hope people use their brain, unfortunately most have un-developed brains.

People buy pickups to move and carry heavy items, now days they also buy them to carry their families and commute to work. The truck is a wonderful piece of equipment, and in most peoples lives, it is indispensable. The combination of Dodge and Cummins has worked out well for both companies, some might even say it saved Dodge by opening new markets and bringing in much needed resources to pursue others, they have truly turned things around. The warranty issue rubs me the wrong way when people try and cheat the system and expect Dodge or Cummins to cover what they clearly and on their own modified. Too me it is STEALING, and their is no since and sugar coating anything. If you intensionally deceive someone for personal gain, it's sealing. I know many like to shoot their mouth off and bragg about all the mod they have made, this is fine it they also stand up , like a REAL MAN and except the consequences for their actions. But most do not, they complain right here and to the dealers, that they are being treated unfairly. I believe you are 100% entitled to everything stated in the Dodge warranty, no doubts about it. And I also believe Dodge should without question, agree to repair, replace, adjust anything that is covered by there warranty, it was part of the deal just as the truck itself was. But I also can not see why people expect Dodge to cover anything they modified, replaced, or added to the original truck they sold. No I do not think adding LED lamps to the tail lights voids the warranty. Nor does using a Fleet guard filter, graphic to the side of the truck, or billet door sills . This is obvious to everyone, even most morons. That never was the argument, and just a convenient way to shift the focus of the debate. Dodge isn't asking it's dealers to do anything wrong, be overly picky or do anything any other reasonable business would do. Just asking them to cover everything within the warranty, for the vehicle they sold, and nothing else. I can remember back to the first issue of the TDR I ever read, and nothing has changed in it's present articles. They have always stated "YOU ARE YOUR OWN WARRANTY STATION".

 

[tbrudder]

y-knot:



I think I agree with almost everything you've said. But when you say (at least I think this is what you're saying) that any mods should void your warranty, I don't agree--if we're completely accurate, anything that's added after you drive off the lot is a modification. Maybe that TDR badge you put on the grill causes a disturbance in the airflow into the airbox under certain conditions. Maybe a Von Karman vortex street is set up, resonates with the compressor wheel, which fails an oil seal, and the engine runs away and explodes! Better take that TDR badge off before you take it in, guys!



Of course, I'm kidding, and the odds of that happening are effectively zero, and I'm not really trying to be a smartass, either (I have trouble with that sometimes, sorry ).



The point is, a warranty is a binding contract, supported by various laws. Yeah, the people who kill their engine because of mods and try to cover it up are stealing. But if the mod doesn't cause it, too bad for them--the law says they have to fix it.



And no, I don't think I'm necessarily smarter than the engineers that designed the truck. I do, however, have an engineering background myself, which gives me a bit of insight. If the beancounters weren't in the way, and I had a mechanical engineer or a mechanic that actually knew what he was talking about (no offense, guys, but it's hard to trust all of them, with what I've seen in the dealer service departments)--let's just say I'd accept it.



But when it's driven by accountants trying to maximize profit by not fixing a problem they're responsible for, one must be a bit more circumspect. I don't think there's any quick-and-easy answer here. If a statement by an unbiased engineer or mechanic says a failure was in no way related to any modification, I'm sorry, but I'd take it to court to get them to uphold their agreement. If they didn't want to honor it, they shouldn't have offered one in the first place.



I think I'll bow out of this discussion, now--we all seem entrenched in our positions, so further banter won't accomplish much. I hope none of you need to test any of this. I know I won't, for a while--my warranty expired a few months back--luckily two weeks after my lift pump/VP-44 failed! (No, I have no mods yet, thank you )



Good luck, all, and have a great weekend!



--Ty

 

[Sticks]

1999 Quad Cab 4x4, LWB, NV4500

No silencer, standard Di-Pricol gauges.

tbrudder - You have modified your turbo...





We all pick our own battles. I personally will not try to have the dealer fix or replace something that I broke. My morals, My conscious, My decision to remove mods before she goes to the dealer for warranty work.



If some of them were not so quick to jump the gun when the hood pops open, pointing fingers and looking like mom when I spilled the grape kool-aid on the living room carpet, working through any problems with our trucks would not be such an issue.



Bob - "I think my injection pump has died. It set a bunch of codes that all indicated the injection pump was bad. "



Service - "Really. Lets take a look. Oh, I see you have a performance chip plugged into the injection pump. Have you tried disconnecting it to see if the chip is bad, and not the pump?"



Bob - Yes.



Service - OK, well, lets do some more checking to see what might have caused the VP44 to stop working. We will check both the on board computers, fuel pressure, fuel filter, LP and some of the sensors to make sure we find out what is really wrong with your truck. Will you please remove the performance chip so we can work on it. We can not be responsible for hooking or unhooking that up. Once we determine what the problem is, and what caused it, we will contact you and let you know if it will be covered under warranty or not before we start working to fix it.



If it is determined that the performance chip caused the failure, the replacement will not be covered under the warranty, nor will the next one if it fails for the same reason with the chip hooked up.







How often does that conversation happen?

 

[Turboman]

Damn guys!!!!

I didn't mean start a fist fight! The thing is the truck is not modified in anyway except the fast coolers and a temp guage in the transmission. If he had left it alone it probably would have thrashed sooner. He may have made it were DC only gets to buy one transmission instead of two. Anyway its fixed, DC covered it, after the DC nazi guy left the service flunky put the fastcoolers on and it's all good now. It is cool to start such a heated thread maybe I'll start one about your mom and her use of Amsoil and a K&N!!!:{

 

[tbrudder]

Originally posted by sticks

tbrudder - You have modified your turbo...

Gah! No, that's the silencer ring on my... lawnmower! Yeah, I like to hear the blade cutting through the air--that's it! Heh. I think the hole I drilled in my exhaust manifold qualifies more as a mod than that, though.



As far as your ideal visit--wouldn't that be nice? Talk about generating owner loyalty...



Turboman--glad it worked out. Good to know there's some decent folks to deal with, still.



--Ty