Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Dealer won't check fuel pressure

[patrobertson]

Honesty with Dealer

I went to the local "Dealer" in my home town of Gilroy Ca. told him my lift pump had been checked at our local TDR Ramrunners meeting (a great place to make friends and find potential truck problems). He said he would check it for $85, I asked why when it was tested and was shown to be failing and it was a warrenty item? He asked does the truck have any symptoms I answered truthfully no but I am going on a 2500 mile trip and I am concerned. He said "this model truck doesn't have any lift pump problems, You can test it but it would be foolish". The service guy was called out and he said "Is this the same STUPID truck you had me test the other day? I made my trip and in Pagosa Springs Co. 10 miles from my 5th and campground the truck died in the middle of the road, no other symptoms! Finally got it back to the campground and called the 800 number and did get good service and response, in 1/2 hour my truck was on it's way to Durango even though it was 9:30pm. Lift pump had totally failed, was replaced by 2:00 following day. Excellent service response by New Country Dodge. I then told my story and asked what should I have done and should I do with my Gilroy dealer? I was told to tell them there is a performance problem even if there wasn't yet, I choose honesty but look what it got me!:mad

 

[Soot4Life]

Bigsaint is right on. After receiving shabby treatment and watching with my 2 eyes poor performance by a tech. without a clue, I went to Cummins and bought a pump and did the changeout in my driveway on the weekend. In the end it was a win/win 4 me. I didn't have to pay shop rates for a needed repair and I learned how to install gauges & change out the lift pump with help from the archives. I guess I could have tried the "poor performance" excuse but that just wouldn't sit right with me. Can't do it... ... . even if it costs me $$$$$

 

[JGarcia]

Let's all pray that in the next 5 years either Dodge, Chevy, or Ford will build a truck that we can buy, use, and enjoy in stock mode, and gee, maybe not have to repair in the first 15,000 miles. Until that time comes, I'm not going to promise that every truck I buy will be a Dodge. Maybe the big three will realize how much service will contribute to that decision for a lot of buyers. As for right now, either you can fix it yourself or it's a seller's market, and I'm no mechanic so I guess I'm kind of stuck with dealer's and professional mechanics. I'm still going to keep looking for the truck that requires fewer visits.





JRG

 

[AlFischer]

In the case of the Gilroy dealer I would have stated that the pump was not meeting the required pressure specs and DEMANDED that it be changed. Under warantee. If the service manager is not cooperative there is always the owner or general manager. There is always the last resort. Small claims court.



I personally will not accept less than satisfactory service.

 

[Tomeygun]

Originally posted by afischer



I personally will not accept less than satisfactory service.

thats says it all...



regardless of nickname "stealer - dealer" - ethics or no ethics



i will not tolerate bad service

they forget WE are the customer



even when it comes to my own service manager, i have no problem going to his boss with a bad service issue

 

[daveshoe]

Shame on gary for his lack of situational ethics

Gary sounds like a guy that I would like to meet. He knows that words mean things. Words like honesty and faithfulness are not weasel words. It is as impossible to be half honest as half pregnant. If I had to trust my life with someone ,even though I have never met him ,Gary would be at the top of the list.

I have had my fill of people saying one thing and doing another.

Anyone rember Bill and Monica? Just my . 02

 

[Lsfarm]

Give him some time

I don't know where Gary made 960 posts, but it wasn't on the 24v forums. Lately he has been voicing opinions on virtually everything from lift pumps to transmissions to ethics. He's been great at stating opinions that fly in the face of many factual polls, and actual common failures.



Maybe he should read a bit on a subject before expounding. [the search feature comes to mind]



This same Gary started a thread about which fueling box to add to his brand new '02 truck, so I'm sure when his lift pump dies [which it will] that he will take the truck in just as it is,[with a fueling box on it] and get turned down for warrantee??



NOT!!! The box will come out first!!



He'll figure it out eventually, and until then we'll have to listen to his self-rightous pap. Maybe he is just excited over his new truck.



Daveshoe: words are just words. remember Bill and Monica? Just words. Actions are what are for real [remember bill and monica?]



Anyone who has to get on a soapbox to tell the world how ethical they are really worries me, sounds too much like someone with something to hide. I'll look up the the person who acts ethically not the one who expounds about how ethical they are.



Words: the tools and weapons of politicians and lawyers, and we know how ethical they are!



LOL@ Ram4Sam and Mallory



Greg L

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Why THANK YOU Greg - I always appreciate a few kind and well thought out words from my buds here in the group...



And you have a real nice weekend...

 

[speedracer]

The problem with these lift pumps is that much of the time they don't have 'hard starting/low performance' symptoms when they fail/are failing. I chose to invest in a fuel pressure gauge for my own peace of mind and to protect my investment. When my fuel pressures started to read low, I went to the dealer and had it replaced. The service writer asked me if I had running problems and I said no( I noticed later that he had writen those operating problems on the service order anyway). Fortuneately they didn't give me a hard time like patrobertson's dealer did. If they had, I wouldn't have thought twice about saying it had running problems, because I already KNEW that the pump was failing and I'm now willing to be stranded on the side of the road or risk damaging the injection pump so I can feel self satisfied about my unflagging adherence to the truth.



Tell me Gary, if you had the same experience as pat did(knowing the fp was low but having the dealer refuse to look at it because you didn't claim running problems) would you then obediently go away and wait for something more serious to fail just because the dealer sucked?

 

[Big_Daddy_T]

My truck started running hotter than normal. Not alot,just hotter. I called the dealer he said "it is within specs". Yeah but it wasnt doing it before. I called every day for a week. They refused to help. Finally I got it to overheat. woohoo my lucky day. I hear a ding and look at my guages and the temp is pegged. I called the guy and said it overheated and they had it in and fixed in no time. If I had been on a trip or towing this couldve been a major headache. Since it hadnt overheated they absolutely refused to help even though something was definitely wrong. I think that it is folly on there part. What if I had warped my head or lost a gasket. That would be on their dime not mine. The service guy during the week condescended to me so bad. Talking to me like im some kinda moron. Im no mechanic ,but Im no fool.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Tell me Gary, if you had the same experience as pat did(knowing the fp was low but having the dealer refuse to look at it because you didn't claim running problems) would you then obediently go away and wait for something more serious to fail just because the dealer sucked?"



Pat didn't indicate to the dealer any known problem, only that a non-DC individual or group had supposedly made a check - people of unknown skills/credentials, and unknown quality of test equipment - the dealer is HARDLY bound in any way to accept such informal non-DC testing as reliable OR accurate - unless supporting engine operation is evident AT THAT TIME. From the dealer's perspective, the fact that the pump DOES fail at some future point is no real assurance that it would have earlier tested bad at the dealer's, with their techs and equipment.



BUT IF the question is, would *I* expect the dealer to check my fuel pressure simply because I was fearful of potential problems that OTHERS have reported - even tho' *I* had none I was aware of - the answer is a resounding *NO*! And why does a dealer "suck" simply because he refuses to expend service tech time at HIS expense on a problem that has not occured - according to the customer?



What *I* would probably try in such a situation - where I felt confident there WAS a LP problem, is PAY the test cost with the understanding that cost would be cancelled IF the dealership DID verify low readings...



If a service tech was to do as some here suggest, and arbitrarily check EVERY diesel fuel pressure as they came in regardless of whether that was the reason for the truck being brought in or not - and if that extra service averaged 10 minutes per truck, and the average service per day for each tech is 6 trucks, that act would require a full extra HOUR PER DAY per tech!



As a business owner, would YOU want to eat that expense? If you DIDN'T eat it, your only OTHER recourse is to pass the costs on to OTHER customers (like ME!) in higher prices - is that too difficult to comprehend? would YOU do any different?



FOR the record, I chose my truck pretty carefully - I bought it because it had the highest power available, the most trouble-free drivetrain - and other comfort/convenience advantages over my '91. I fully expected to increase power output in some way, at some time - and am FULLY prepared to ACCEPT the risk to my warranty that choice automatically provides.



I don't intend, if problems arise, to frantically and fraudulently scramble madly to remove my added stuff in order to try to fool the dealer into thinking I "deserve" service I don't, that was most likely caused by my OWN foolishness and aggressive stupidity!



Some less ethical folks - here and in other similar groups - have a real problem with that, since it obviously clashes severely with their own set of morals - and their immediate reaction, as with the guy further above, is to next attempt to trash ME and MY morals!



SORRY fellas - won't work!



*I* know the difference between right and wrong, I know how and when to accept responsibility for my own actions - even when it's painful and inconvenient - sorry some of YOU were't brought up better when YOU were young - but that's not MY prpblem - it's YOURS and those who must deal with you...



Now, if that statement causes you mental anguish - and the only/best response you can come up with is to trash ME some more, have at it - I came here to this group under the assumption we are all responsible adults, and on the same side - but if my chosen sense of morality and personal values cause some of you distress - well, perhaps you should examine YOURSELVES and your ethics a bit more closely than you are ME!



Keep in mind, this thread got into this track due to some proposing and encouraging others to misrepresent and lie about needed warranty service work or checks - and THAT is what MY comments are directed towards!



An old saying:



"Toss a brick into a pigpen, and you can tell how many you hit by counting the squeals - and the ones you hit hardest will squeal loudest and longest... "



Let the squeals continue...

 

[Big_Daddy_T]

gary you missed the point. the fuel pump tested WAS bad. The supposed test by unqualified mechanics was correct. I have faith in humanity to try to do whats right. If you push an honest man into a corner he then has to make a difficult choice. Do unto others as theyve done unto you or take the high road and the screwin and know that theyve done what was right. If the fuel pump goes bad and takes out a 3k dollar injection pump who is going to pay for that. The owner of the truck with the mods is. If you modify your truck your warranty is cancelled regardless if the modification caused the failure. I have faith in people that most when put into a difficult situation will take the righteous course. My modifictations took out my tc while under warranty and I forked over 2 grand to fix it.



I would pay an additional 5 bucks every oil change to have my fuel pressure checked as Im sure most would do. that would more than cover dcs cost. It is there faulty part that is causing all this ruckus. the lift pumps go out. they fail on a regular basis. they have been known to cause very expensive damage. Have you a non dc tech checked your fuel pressure lately? please do not respond just think about it. I respect your views. just dont expect everyone else to take your high road when they are gettin screwed.



Please dont prod gary anymore. He has already stated his position repeatedly.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

[B



If a service tech was to do as some here suggest, and arbitrarily check EVERY diesel fuel pressure as they came in regardless of whether that was the reason for the truck being brought in or not - and if that extra service averaged 10 minutes per truck, and the average service per day for each tech is 6 trucks, that act would require a full extra HOUR PER DAY per tech!



As a business owner, would YOU want to eat that expense? If you DIDN'T eat it, your only OTHER recourse is to pass the costs on to OTHER customers (like ME!) in higher prices - is that too difficult to comprehend? would YOU do any different?

[/B]

Gary, I understand what you are saying but I disagree with your business model. The lift pump is a known problem on these trucks. As a business owner you increase your business by providing quality service. I would make back 10 times the expense of checking the fuel pressure, in new lift pump installs and customer good will. This is not about any moral issue. This about creating a functional business model that will serve both the dealership owner and the customer. By the way Gary, just one question about honesty. When your wife comes in and asks if she looks fat in one of her outfits, what do you tell her??? Sorry I could not help myself

 

[Rob Thomas]

originally posted by Gary,

FOR the record, I chose my truck pretty carefully - I bought it because it had the highest power available, the most trouble-free drivetrain - and other comfort/convenience advantages over my '91. I fully expected to increase power output in some way, at some time - and am FULLY prepared to ACCEPT the risk to my warranty that choice automatically provides.





uh huh,



Gary,you may pay for your $140 lift-pump outta your own pocket, but lets see you keep your trap shut when it comes to the injection pump, or a head gasket. Bombs or no bombs, the lift-pumps just don't last, therefore THEY should foot the bill.



I am a business owner, if I sell a product, and it's faulty, I replace it, it's just GOOD business, and COMMON SENCE.



Sorry Big Daddy, I couldn't resist.



Later, Rob

 

[Sregorb]

"I would pay an additional 5 bucks every oil change to have my fuel pressure checked as Im sure most would do. "



Exactly my thoughts. As stated before I take the preventative approach.



If there was no way to "eat" the costs and I had dug my business into a hole where the only scenario left is to force the consumer to pay out of pocket to test known problem items then I'd work to keep those costs reasonable from the consumer perspective.

If it was a reasonable $1-10 for a check of a non-symptomatic item then great, I'd pay that out of my own pocket too for my own piece of mind. But when the dealership seeks to charge $78 "diagnostic fee" for each and every test (even when there is only one trip/visit involved, that's just plain cost prohibitive to the consumer.



Therefore, it's not idealistic, but just realistic that there will be a corresponding increase in the people that will inflate or plain "make-up" symptoms in order to get the tab picked up by the big business that has (from the consumer's perspective) a HUGE markup and therefore profit. Especially as word that the company picks up the tab if you have XYZ symptoms on their problematic items spreads thru the ranks.



Now I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying that's how it is. That's business. The question now becomes, Do you;

a. Blame the business for their business practices and seek alternatives often in search of cheaper, more efficient, more quality items/brands. By voting with feet or going elsewhere, it in effect can 'force' the business to modify practices due to lost revenue.

b. Cheer the business for their business practices and blindly provide loyalty regardless of good/bad times and pay premium prices trusting that the company is completely up-and-up, honest, and keeping the prices at the lowest possible while still making a profit.



How does it look from the consumer perspective when a company takes a stance and (in effect) says, "Yes there are problems with ABC items that can cause you great inconvience but we're not paying to test them. You want to test them, fine, then give us a large amount of money for our troubles and we'll see if we gave you a bad part. If the part fails, even though we could have prevented it with a check, tough, deal with the inconvenience. By the way while you're here visit the sales department. Have you seen the new... ... . "



I BELIEVE the average american consumer is category A and has recently pushed even more B's into A's due to business practices of Enron or Worldcomm or ... .....



I don't seek to prod, I seek to state positions, so that we can evolve into the best.

Very respectfully,

Brian

 

[speedracer]

Gary, the dealer 'sucks' because they had a customer(pat) who had gone to the trouble to check a known problem area on the truck and having done so and found a problem brought the truck to the dealer for service. They then chose to condescendingly tell the customer that since there were no obvious drivability problems that they wouldn't do anything about it. They THEN tell the customer that there are no lift pump problems on this model(either a bold faced lie or massive ignorance). Again, this is relating to a component (lift pumps) that doesn't necessarily exhibit drivability problems when it fails. And if we as lay people know this, then they as professionals surely should. It is an example of atrocious customer service. If you as a business owner refuse to accomodate your customers unless you absolutely have to, you're doing a lousy job and will alienate many of them. What good does that do your business? For an example of good customer service related to a failed lift pump with no apparent drivability problems, I refer you to my experience earlier in the thread.

 

[zimman20]

That about sums it up....

Well said, Speedracer. Ditto, as my experience was very much like the above, but I pushed long and hard enough to get them to see my point of view.



What's frustrating to us as owners is we HAVE done the research and HAVE done the diagnostics for them, all they have to do is confirm or deny our claim of failure. If they claim that my (new) gauge is faulty then I want their mechanic to use his gauge in front of me and show me different readings than the ones I am getting.



I know their time is valuable, but they forget SO IS MINE. Also it is my 40k in that truck, NOT THEIRS. As such, and as stated above, it is simply good business to give me a few minutes of your (and your mechanic's, if it comes to that) to listen to what I have to say, determine that I know what the heck I'm talking about, and we solve the problem TOGETHER. THAT will keep me coming back to DC, nothing else.



I also understand that the dealer has to deal with people who DON'T know what the heck they're talking about, or demand things that they aren't entitled to, but I don't think we fit into that category, especially when it concerns the LP problems we are experiencing. Alas, they HAVE to deal with it, it is an unfortunate product of being in the CUSTOMER SERVICE business. So humor me/us and don't assume everyone who walks through your doors is an ignorant a$$.



I also concur that the service department simply DOES NOT KNOW about the problems with these LP's. There is no TSB for us to refer to, and unless the dealership is savvy and/or informed and see diesels on a semi-regular basis they may not know about the problems with the LP's. Yes, it's sad. But it is my opinion that the reason they don't, and that the LP doesn't have a TSB and/or recall associated with it, is that DC doesn't KNOW what the heck to do about all of these failures except to replace them on a case-by-case basis. Unless they redesign/re-engineer the location of the LP in relation to the fuel source (tank) they can't do anything but replace them one by one. It would be VERY costly for them to try to do such a thing considering how many of these trucks they'd have to fix if they released a TSB or recall on ALL of them since they all have the SAME problem!



I actually had the SERVICE MANAGER (!) at the dealership I frequent (due to proximity to my place of work only) tell me that there WERE problems with some earlier trucks/LP's but those problems were resolved and do not affect my truck! He claims to have no idea or knowledge that the problem is ongoing and unresolved. Ignorance or lying, which is worse?





zman