Death wobble gets Federal attention???

[Jim W]

Do I qualify? I own two Jeep Cherokee's both full size vehicles that were 4X4, in the 70's. Both of these vehicles when crossing railroad tracks would shake and rattle the steering after 30K miles. Most of the times the steering stabilizer had failed. Just replace them and they were good for another 30K. If you had over size tires and wheels you would install two steering stabilizers instead of just one.

We did not go running to the Fed's for help. We just fixed the issue and said that this was part of owning a straight axle 4X4 vehicle and not the twin I beam of the Ford's. Chevy Blazer, GMC and Chevy pickup trucks 4X4's, Dodge Ram's, Plymouth Trail Blazer and Jeep Cherokees all had this issues with the un-stabilize steering when the stabilizer failed.

The internet now calls this "The dreaded death wobble". I just call it part of owning a straight axle 4X4.

Jim W.

 

[mwilson]

The internet now calls this "The dreaded death wobble". I just call it part of owning a straight axle 4X4.

Jim W.

Amen Brother.



I simply hate to see Dodge singled out for what is an age old problem that all of us (Fellow Oldsters:-laf) learned to deal with by ourselves back in the day.



Mike.

 

[The patriot]

I have a 98 qc 4x4.

I have the biggest tires that were a factory option on it. IIRC theyre 265's.

I'm still on the factory front end (except for a track bar and steering box)and I've never had said problems.

IMO the large tires put an unnecessary strain on an already marginal front end.

I know not everyone wants a bigfoot wannabe, but there has been a way too high percentage of these problems on this particular truck/chassis.

 

[guldam]

I've been riding motorcycles since was 12 years old and have owned many dirt and street bikes. One motorcycle had a really bad habit of going into a death wobble. This was due to having worn out steering head bearings. Another bike went into a death wobble due to having a non-true frame. And yet another bike went into a death wobble due to worn out swing arm bushings. Yep, something on the rear end affected the front end.

Gotta wonder if our Dodge Truck wobbles are caused by a variety of things, including worn out steering gear, miss-aligned frames, defective tires, or something worn out in the back end.

 

[RDeFayette]

Most front end techs. check the steering assembly for wear but forget or don't know how to check the front track bar/panhard rod bushings. Easiest way to check for excess bushing wear is to start the truck, hang out the window (NO not moving at all, sitting still!) saw the steering wheel back and forth. If the truck body moves left and right (back and forth) over the tires instead of the wheels turning guess what the track bar bushings are shot. It is almost impossible to tell if the bushings are shot by traditional methods (shaking and such) as these were meant to keep a 3 ton truck centered over the front suspension, so you pretty much don't stand a chance of moving the bushings by shaking the front end. Give it a try. Just remember the tires are supposed to turn NOT the body moving left and right.

ANY coil spring solid axle 4x4 front end is succeptable to this. Ask anyone that had a pre '80 Ford 1/2 ton 4x4.

 

[04blackcherry]

I have been dealing with the DW lately. I have just started reading a little bit about the history of this condition. Now I realize this is not an issue that only happens to me and my '04. The question is: what exactly is the fix. There are a lot of ideas but no definitive answer. Maybe there is not one answer for all. What I'm going away with on this issue is:
1) all front end components need to be in near new condition.
2) caster angle is important.
3) twin steering stabilizers could help.

I just replaced an inner left tie rod and had an alignment (all the bearings and ball joints are new and urethane bushings and balls tight track bar). So far it seems better.

I kinda feel better knowing the history of this condition. Now I will treat front end components like oil changes. Keep them in good shape and no problems.

 

[RollOver_Pete]

I've owned a 76 Honda CVCC

a 79 Datsun PU

a 86 Chevy K5 Blazer

a 89 Chevy K5 Blazer

a 89 Jeep YJ

a 69 Freightliner COE

a 86 Mack Superliner

a 86 Peterbilt 359

and never had any problems with DW until I bought my 06 Ram 3500.

Go figure.....

 

[AEdelheit]

This is an interesting and typical post by a minority of TDR members.



I posted my opinion of an issue. I made no reference to any individual.



You apparently disagree with my opinion so your response is to write a childish personal insult and attack on me.



Do you have an adult argument you'd like to post?

For respct of this thread and every other TDR member I will not argue with you. And because your not worth getting banned over.

 

[mc130fox]

I am actually going to reconsider if posting my original reply adds anything to this discussion.

It does strike me that the issues are with the 52122362AE version '08. 5 steering components. I guess I am fortunate as I installed the 52122362AF version in my truck.

I apologize if this does not add to the conversation.

Mark

 

[ENafziger]

Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=7 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HBarlow #ad

This is an interesting and typical post by a minority of TDR members.

I posted my opinion of an issue. I made no reference to any individual.

You apparently disagree with my opinion so your response is to write a childish personal insult and attack on me.

Do you have an adult argument you'd like to post?
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->For respct of this thread and every other TDR member I will not argue with you. And because your not worth getting banned over. <!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Well, I don't mind lively discussions!!! At least their's something going on here... I've been staring at the 1st gen section for the past few days and have heard nothing but crickets. Not that this adds anything to the discussion, but I just wanted to say something in a thread that people actually read!

 

[Prairie Dog]

Thanks for the tip Bob D.

 

[cerberusiam]

Exactly, something has to be loose for the wobble to happen.

Loose, worn, or (this is the biggy) not OEM spec for the suspension geometry like 6 ply tires, different than stock tires specs, leveling kits, lift kits, etc, etc, etc.



I don't remember an instance where a new truck was driven off the lot and immediately had DW. When one starts digging into the instances of DW almost always a modification or wear part is the root. How is this EVEN considered an issue???



I wonder what the response would be if Kroeker posted the capabilites of his truck in the Baja and how it gets driven?



Yes, I remeber DW on ever possible vehicle back to a 1945 CJ. When stuff wears out problems ensue. 4x4, 2x4, I-beam, straight axle, IFS, it doesn't matter. When the tolerances go out of engineered specs something will happen.



The single biggest issue with the Dodge suspension\steering is the narrow frame of tolerances it needs to function correctly. Take away the massive weight sitting well forward of the axle centerline AND the NVH crap around the soft mounting bushings and the point is moot. DW just does not happen that often without all the pieces in place and 99% of the time its wear or modification at the root.



The threads that start "6 inches of lift now have DW... " just slay me. :-laf:-laf

 

[HBarlow]

Loose, worn, or (this is the biggy) not OEM spec for the suspension geometry like 6 ply tires, different than stock tires specs, leveling kits, lift kits, etc, etc, etc.

I don't remember an instance where a new truck was driven off the lot and immediately had DW. When one starts digging into the instances of DW almost always a modification or wear part is the root. How is this EVEN considered an issue???

I wonder what the response would be if Kroeker posted the capabilites of his truck in the Baja and how it gets driven?

Yes, I remeber DW on ever possible vehicle back to a 1945 CJ. When stuff wears out problems ensue. 4x4, 2x4, I-beam, straight axle, IFS, it doesn't matter. When the tolerances go out of engineered specs something will happen.

The single biggest issue with the Dodge suspension\steering is the narrow frame of tolerances it needs to function correctly. Take away the massive weight sitting well forward of the axle centerline AND the NVH crap around the soft mounting bushings and the point is moot. DW just does not happen that often without all the pieces in place and 99% of the time its wear or modification at the root.

The threads that start "6 inches of lift now have DW... " just slay me. :-laf:-laf

Yep, you said about all that needs to be said on that subject. I agree with you 100%.

 

[HBarlow]

Well, I don't mind lively discussions!!! At least their's something going on here... I've been staring at the 1st gen section for the past few days and have heard nothing but crickets. Not that this adds anything to the discussion, but I just wanted to say something in a thread that people actually read!

Eric,

You made an error in quoting my post which makes it appear that I wrote the last sentence. That line about arguing was not from my post.

 

[AEdelheit]

Loose, worn, or (this is the biggy) not OEM spec for the suspension geometry like 6 ply tires, different than stock tires specs, leveling kits, lift kits, etc, etc, etc.

I don't remember an instance where a new truck was driven off the lot and immediately had DW. When one starts digging into the instances of DW almost always a modification or wear part is the root. How is this EVEN considered an issue???

I wonder what the response would be if Kroeker posted the capabilites of his truck in the Baja and how it gets driven?

Yes, I remeber DW on ever possible vehicle back to a 1945 CJ. When stuff wears out problems ensue. 4x4, 2x4, I-beam, straight axle, IFS, it doesn't matter. When the tolerances go out of engineered specs something will happen.

The single biggest issue with the Dodge suspension\steering is the narrow frame of tolerances it needs to function correctly. Take away the massive weight sitting well forward of the axle centerline AND the NVH crap around the soft mounting bushings and the point is moot. DW just does not happen that often without all the pieces in place and 99% of the time its wear or modification at the root.

The threads that start "6 inches of lift now have DW... " just slay me. :-laf:-laf

I have heard of trucks having DW within the first 1000 mi, usually it was due to poor quality control and a ball joint or bushing being worn right off the lot. As for lifted trucks if you use high quality components such as Carli or Thuren and good tires it is still not at issue, I have never personally seen a truck with DW that could not be solved with quality parts. Well see how the old guy argues this point

Cerberusiam: with the comment about Kroeker are yous suggesting that DW should be acceptable if a truck has high quality suspension capable of running through Baja?

 

[cerberusiam]

I have never personally seen a truck with DW that could not be solved with quality parts.

Agreed. Quality parts and correct geometry is key. How many of the DW problems lack these basics? I would hazard a guess a LOT when one starts digging.

Well see how the old guy argues this point

Not sure that point is even arguable, or did I miss something?

Cerberusiam: with the comment about Kroeker are yous suggesting that DW should be acceptable if a truck has high quality suspension capable of running through Baja?

No, was just an offhand comment referencing some of the quotes about being scared to ride in a basically stock DD because of DW, comments about structural integrity, engineering, etc, etc. It just seems that these guys that are trusting the overall design to protect them bombing across the desert at 100 mph for hours and taking the jumps they do says something for the design integrity the system as a whole IF it is setup correctly. Granted, there are better parts in these off road trucks but the basic design performs well.



Its more dramatic that the soccer mom is afraid to ride in the truck with the 4 yr old than an offraoder saying he feels safe at 100 mph. Too much slant on a lot of these articles with little or no context about the actual truck and its mods or use.



If the trucks were really that bad, a large percentage, Dodge would not be building trucks today. Period. The incidents are isolated and now you have people that have NEVER owned or driven anything larger than a Honda Civic getting behind the wheel of a diesel powered 8k truck and wondering why it doesn't behave as they THINK it should.



Soccer mom scared makes better press.

 

[AEdelheit]

Not sure that point is even arguable, or did I miss something?

haha, whoops did I type that! I have just noticed certian members that argue anything and everything I say so im sure there will be a rebuttle to my comment. Nothing to do with you in any way!

No, was just an offhand comment referencing some of the quotes about being scared to ride in a basically stock DD because of DW, comments about structural integrity, engineering, etc, etc. It just seems that these guys that are trusting the overall design to protect them bombing across the desert at 100 mph for hours and taking the jumps they do says something for the design integrity the system as a whole IF it is setup correctly. Granted, there are better parts in these off road trucks but the basic design performs well.

Its more dramatic that the soccer mom is afraid to ride in the truck with the 4 yr old than an offraoder saying he feels safe at 100 mph. Too much slant on a lot of these articles with little or no context about the actual truck and its mods or use.

If the trucks were really that bad, a large percentage, Dodge would not be building trucks today. Period. The incidents are isolated and now you have people that have NEVER owned or driven anything larger than a Honda Civic getting behind the wheel of a diesel powered 8k truck and wondering why it doesn't behave as they THINK it should.

Soccer mom scared makes better press.

Ahh, I interpreted that as saying it should because of its abilities, sorry and agreed!

 

[RDeFayette]

RE: Baja trucks, purpose built machines. Suspension doesn't EVEN closely resemble the factory setup in materials or configuration other than the wheels go up and down.

DW normally occurs after hitting a devation in the road surface and then returning to a relatively smooth (unless you live in Detroit) road surface.

Baja trucks/vehicles, when driven at race speed and configuaration, probably have the tires in the air more than they do in contact with terra firma.

Drivers and co-pilots have alot more to take care of than a DW that will NEVER materialize for the simple fact that these are purpose built/proffesionally built vehicles that have had 1000's of hours of R and D and pre-run time.

Keep it on the street and stay on point.

Had a '79 LIFTED Bronco years ago with 36's on it.

Would start the dreaded DW if you hit a leaf in the road, would take off the 36's and put 32's on it, could NOT get it induce DW no matter how hard you tried. Change back to 36's and here comes the DW.

Imho after 20 + years as a Cert. Master Tech. and seeing this happen on many different vehicle with many different variations of lift/no lift, over size/stock tires.

It appears to be a combination of factors

1. worn/out of tolerance steering/suspension components will induce DW on almost anything.

2. Lifted vehicles that are not done correctly change/upset the design and functionality that the engineers spent years working on.

3. Over size tires, height AND/OR weight, will especially change how the vehicle reacts just because of the increased mass that overpowers/surpasses the components that were never intended to deal with the additional loads and stresses that are imparted on them with these non-stock components.

 

[AEdelheit]

RE: Baja trucks, purpose built machines. Suspension doesn't EVEN closely resemble the factory setup in materials or configuration other than the wheels go up and down.
DW normally occurs after hitting a devation in the road surface and then returning to a relatively smooth (unless you live in Detroit) road surface.
Baja trucks/vehicles, when driven at race speed and configuaration, probably have the tires in the air more than they do in contact with terra firma.
Drivers and co-pilots have alot more to take care of than a DW that will NEVER materialize for the simple fact that these are purpose built/proffesionally built vehicles that have had 1000's of hours of R and D and pre-run time.
Keep it on the street and stay on point.
Had a '79 LIFTED Bronco years ago with 36's on it.
Would start the dreaded DW if you hit a leaf in the road, would take off the 36's and put 32's on it, could NOT get it induce DW no matter how hard you tried. Change back to 36's and here comes the DW.
Imho after 20 + years as a Cert. Master Tech. and seeing this happen on many different vehicle with many different variations of lift/no lift, over size/stock tires.
It appears to be a combination of factors
1. worn/out of tolerance steering/suspension components will induce DW on almost anything.
2. Lifted vehicles that are not done correctly change/upset the design and functionality that the engineers spent years working on.
3. Over size tires, height AND/OR weight, will especially change how the vehicle reacts just because of the increased mass that overpowers/surpasses the components that were never intended to deal with the additional loads and stresses that are imparted on them with these non-stock components.

??????????? Well FYI the "Baja" trucks im refering too in particular are daily driver dodges, not 100% race trucks but still very very fast off road using stock axles with trusses, Carli, Thuren or Kore suspension and 100% daily driven, not as different as you think, and none of them have DW, a few even have "D" rated yokohamas. Look at Kores 2500 cummins powered race truck, the suspension very closly resembles factory parts, just higher quality.

As for your 36"s did you ever try a different brand of tire to rule that out? Not saying larger tires werent the problem, especially on such a small vehicle but the quality of a tire has an impact, so did you just assume it was the larger tire or could it have been the tire quality that was the problem?

 

[bheiting]

I remember reading a post by the president of KORE in, I believe late '07 or early '08 about the death wobble. They use Dodge trucks for their racing vehicles, so I assume he knows what he's talking about. He claimed at the time that their tests revealed tow in angle changes as the wheel bounces on 3rd gen. trucks, and sets off the death wobble. It's a design flaw from the factory. He recommended that owners get the '08 tie rod upgrade because it should solve the problem. I'm surprised it's taken this long to get the Fed's attention. Death wobble happened to me going around Boston w/camper loaded at 80 mph. I sympathize with anyone who's experienced it. My dealer won't replace the tie rod under the TSB unless there's front end damage. Good luck after the warranty's gone and your front end is destroyed. My dealer minimized the tow in angle and I haven't had the problem since, but now the truck tends to wonder. You can't take your eyes off the road for a second.