2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Death wobble - help!

[SRath]

Frankly, if I lived in a place with tight curves and sheer drop-offs, I wouldn't risk driving a dodge. Like you said, there is absolutely no steering and almost no braking when Death Wobble hits. It must have been terrifying on the kind of road you were on. These chassis' simply cannot handle the weight of the Cummins.



There's a Jeep (mopar) Grand Cherokee sitting out in my parking lot that belongs to my brother. It only has a little inline 6-cylinder gas engine, but it has almost exactly the same mopar front steering and suspension design. It too, has Death Wobble so bad it cannot be driven. There are three much older Chevy 4x4's out there, too. All are solid and tight in the steering and they are twice as old (and all still have very sound & solid factory brake lines, too). It is definitely the mopar coil suspension design that causes Death Wobble.



FWIW, I don't think the newer chevy 4x4s are any better than the newer dodges (newer being anything new enough to not have leafsprings up front).

 

[dresslered]

These chassis' simply cannot handle the weight of the Cummins.

So, supporting a Buckstop Bumper and Warn M15000 lb. winch isn't helping the situation?

 

[SRath]

I have a Boss V plow that sees use what, a dozen times per year? 20 maybe? and I don't do any commercial plowing anymore. But the frame mount stays on the truck all the time. Weighs maybe 70 or 80 pounds. The plow is about 900 and hangs way out front.



IMO, this frontend was designed for a 1/2 ton urban pavement cruiser with a 6 cylinder gas engine. Ball joints, dana 44 sized CAD axle shafts, unit bearings = light duty stuff.



Your bumper & winch do aggravate the stresses. The control arms are thin stamped steel. My factory Y-style steering was scrawny compared to the T-style. The steering stabilizer is (was) bolted to the frame and actually adds to bump steer.



Ten constantly moving, wearing, & deflecting joints in the track bar & control arms alone just to locate the axle under the truck. Four ball joints, two drag link ends and two tie rod ends. All moving & wearing. Then there are the two ball & socket swaybar ends, and two rubber bushed end links, and two rubber bushed frame mounts and the four rubber bushed shock mounts, and two rubber-bushed stabilizer ends.



That's 30 constantly moving, wearing, & deflecting joints in that front steering & suspension so far! Sounds ridiculous when put in those terms, doesn't it? It definitely defies the fundamental principal of sound & reliable engineering: K. I. S. S. (Keep It Simple Stupid). And then add two coil springs that would love to bounce uncontrollably, and you just gotta hate the unserviceable, unadjustable unit hubs. Almost forgot the ridiculous leverage & stress of that long, offset pitman arm on a light-duty steering box and steering column shaft & bushings. Even a small amount of wear in any number of those joints & parts adds up collectively very quickly both in terms of potential slop and in dollars.



I call that a very high-maintenence, high-dollar, high-probabilty of wear, slop, & failure design. Add an engine that weighs far more than any bigblock gas motor and you're just asking for trouble even without adding the weight of a solid bumper, winch, or plow...

 

[dresslered]

I'm a true believer of KISS but in this case I think I need to BOMB.

 

[fest3er]

Frankly, if I lived in a place with tight curves and sheer drop-offs, I wouldn't risk driving a dodge. Like you said, there is absolutely no steering and almost no braking when Death Wobble hits. It must have been terrifying on the kind of road you were on. These chassis' simply cannot handle the weight of the Cummins.



There's a Jeep (mopar) Grand Cherokee sitting out in my parking lot that belongs to my brother. It only has a little inline 6-cylinder gas engine, but it has almost exactly the same mopar front steering and suspension design. It too, has Death Wobble so bad it cannot be driven. There are three much older Chevy 4x4's out there, too. All are solid and tight in the steering and they are twice as old (and all still have very sound & solid factory brake lines, too). It is definitely the mopar coil suspension design that causes Death Wobble.



FWIW, I don't think the newer chevy 4x4s are any better than the newer dodges (newer being anything new enough to not have leafsprings up front).

So what is the difference between our two trucks? Mine's a '98 club cab 2500, auto, long bed, 4x4. At around 100k miles, I installed the DSS stabilizer. In 275k miles (I bought the truck new in '97), I have *never* had the death wobble. From 60k to around 150k, I had Yokohama TY303s on the truck and drove it like a sports car because it handled like a sports car. I drove the twisties on VA/WV 311 at 10-20 MPH over the posted warning speed. The tires never slipped, the steering was rock solid.



Not *all* of these trucks experience the death wobble. There has to be a noticeable, measurable difference between your truck and mine. There has to be something to point to: frame, welds, bushings, etc.

 

[SRath]

So what is the difference between our two trucks? Mine's a '98 club cab 2500, auto, long bed, 4x4. At around 100k miles, I installed the DSS stabilizer. In 275k miles (I bought the truck new in '97), I have *never* had the death wobble. From 60k to around 150k, I had Yokohama TY303s on the truck and drove it like a sports car because it handled like a sports car. I drove the twisties on VA/WV 311 at 10-20 MPH over the posted warning speed. The tires never slipped, the steering was rock solid.



Not *all* of these trucks experience the death wobble. There has to be a noticeable, measurable difference between your truck and mine. There has to be something to point to: frame, welds, bushings, etc.

I believe you answered that question with your statement, Neal. You drive it like a CAR. You use it like a car. You keep it on-road like a car.



I own a 4wd truck. I use it like a 4wd truck. It can't handle it. It was designed and built to look like a truck but to be used like a car.



It used to be that people who bought trucks were people who needed trucks, so trucks were built first-and-foremost to work hard. The market changed as more urbanites who didn't really need trucks began buying trucks simply because they liked them.



But they wanted their truck to drive like a car and to ride like a car. As in other things, the urbanites outnumbered the more rural buyers and detroit began to cater to their desires and went away from building work trucks that were simple and tough. Chevy stopped putting solid axles and leafsprings under their trucks. Dodge, too, changed their chevy-clone front suspension and even paid Dana to redesign the legendary Dana 60 into a faux dana 60 with unreliable and incredibly wimpy components like ball joints and unit bearing hubs and scrawny axle shafts and "I don't want to get muddy" Central Axle Disconnects. They wussyfied their trucks, too, and those of us who use 4x4 trucks like 4x4x trucks because we need 4x4 trucks have paid the price.



That trend continues with dodge doing like the federal reserve and congress and compounding every bad throw-more-money-at-it idea with more of the same as they go to coil/link rear suspension. Stupid is as stupid does.



These are Barbie Doll trucks. Like those little pink-handled tool kits that mommy keeps in her pots & pans cupboard because they give her a false sense of capability and independence. Their greatest value is when she gets them out and threatens to actually use them on something. That will invariably galvanize dad to get out of his recliner and perform the honey-do task before she has a chance to bugger the job with junk tools. :-laf

 

[ESims]

I have taken the track bar bushing on the axle end out and replaced it with a solid steel bushing that i had machined locally. The truck has almost 300,000 on it with 35 bfg's and i am still on the original ball joints. I haven't had death wobble since i put in the steel bushing.

 

[dresslered]

I have taken the track bar bushing on the axle end out and replaced it with a solid steel bushing that i had machined locally.

I kept my old parts in case I want to play around with something like this or the Luke's Link. I saw on their web site that they don't have a link for the Moog bar though? I also have the previous parts as well. Prolly end up in the dumpster when I get tired of tripping over them.



Got the truck back today. All new tie rod ends and track bar. Also had my leaking pinion seal replaced while I was there. The weird thing was that they measured 3. 02-degrees total toe prior to the replacement. Why wouldn't I have felt this???



P. S. Just looked at the receipt. They had written "Death Wobble" as the symptom.

 

[RMcKinney]

Death Wobble

David,

My 1995 2500 stock had this and it is something you will never forget.

I shook everything by hand but that did not tell anything.

I got a Track bar from an Oreily's atuoparts and and seems to have taken care of it.

I expect this bar to do the same thing but its lasted 30,000 and still no DW.

Nothing special about OReily's they were open-had one- i had to try something.

RMcKinney

Hey Folks,



Sorry for bringing up an old topic especially without searching the archives, but I am currently up in the mountains for the 4th and only have access to a very slow dial-up. I recall our trucks having the "Death Wobble" but having never experienced this myself, I really never paid attention to the posts.



Well, while driving up to the mountains this morning, I probably averaged between 70-75 mph without any noticeable symptoms. We then left the freeways behind for some back road country highways. Speeds slowed down to about 45-50 mph as I approached an upcoming town. Almost as I made it into town, the truck went into uncontrollable oscillations so severely that I thought that a ball joint or axle had snapped. I had no control of the truck with the braking and steering (thought it fortunately maintained a straight line) until I got to about 5 mph when it stopped. I immediately pulled to the side of the road to give it a full visual inspection. I inspected the entire front end and shook everything that I possibly could (very few tools with me on this trip). I couldn’t find anything. We continued on cautiously for another 60 miles on the same kind of roads without another incident. The only other time I have felt something like this has been in my '46 Willy’s when it had monster wheels and tires on it. Converting it back to stock seemed to have permanently solved that problem.



As far as the Ram goes, are these the symptoms those of you who have experienced the Death Wobble had? I have a 150k on the clock, tock wheels and tires, entire Moog front end (ball joints, track bar, tie arms, etc. ). I also have the DSS steering stabilizer and a Rancho steering stabilizer. The front tires are fairly warn but this has never been an issue in the past. My load was light. Any insight anyone can offer would be wonderful. TIA



David in the hills

 

[dresslered]

RMcKinney



I got 85k out of my Moog track bar (among other items) which is far better than the OEM. Replaced with the same. Might try Luke's Link next time around. Keep checkin'.



David in the valley

 

[dresslered]

Folks,

After replacing all of the following again (which were definitely shot):

DS1462 Tie Rod End

ES3527 Inner Tie Rod End

DS1460 Tie Rod End

ES3526 Outer Tie Rod End

ES2012S Sleeve

DS1413 Track Bar

(Ball joints still seemed ok though)​

I returned to the road with everything nice and tight. I still had that thumping though which I had always thought was the steering shaft (common problem). However, 2-months later, the Death Wobble returned on highway 17!



This time I really gave it a look and inspected all the new parts. Low and behold (don't ask me how everyone missed it), I found that one of the front sway bar retainers had been completely sheered away--all that remained was one bolt and and a tiny piece of the old retainer. Apparently one of the bolts had dropped off and a bump must have caused the sway bar to break the retainer clear off. Don't ask how nobody saw this but I essentially had the sway bar just hanging from one side. And, if you are familiar with the DSS, these bolts (lengthened to M10-1. 50 x 40MM) and retainers also hold the DSS bar in place. This, most likely, is the cause of the death wobble for me.



I purchased a replacement bolt and retainer and when trying to install it today, I found that the threaded insert on the inside of the frame is stripped. Anyone have a work around for this? Access will be extremely difficult and all that I can think of is using a nut on a wire as I used when installing my Tork-lifts onto the frame. Is there a better way of repairing this? Thanks for any help.



David



Maybe another option: Am I looking for a nutsert or something: Nutserts

 

[AEdelheit]

Umm, I dont belive a broken sway bar will cause Death wobble, body sway yes, DW ehh doesnt make sense, what tires are you running? If there BFG A/T's thats a very possible issue, also how about your steering stablizer? If you put some sort of tough country or rancho on there that could also be a problem, the stock ones are much beefier.

 

[dresslered]

I am still suspecting the Sway bar because I could really feel the wheel hop on the right side (this is where the wheel was completely floating). The sway bar not only secures the two wheels together as well as securing it to the frame. I'm not following your steering stabilizer theory either. I put on a Rancho because it was far beefier than the stock one. Recall that this is the first and second time my truck has ever experienced the death wobble syndrom in 150k miles. I am currently running the Bridgestone Duelers LT235/85R16 which are very worn and will be changing to the Michelin M/S's in a few weeks for winter.

 

[AEdelheit]

Okay, Death wobble is caused by a high speed undampened axle oscillation, If your wheel is floating that much then the shock is much more likely the problem, the sway bar is there to control body sway, thats it, it in no way control's axle oscillation. Now with that said if you have bad tires and steering stab it may make the front end very sensitive to any other issues, so if fixing the sway bar "fix's" the problem then I bet there is somthing else going on. Ive ran with no sway bar for a couple months with good shocks, the front end was just as tight, just more body roll. Worn tires can be a problem and as for the Rancho stabilizer try taking it off and see how easy it is to move, id bet its pretty damn easy, they are a larger diameter then stock but internally very weak. I see you are also running Rancho 9000's, id pull them off and would damn near bet there shot, ive seen a large number of Ranchos fail within 10k under our heavy trucks. Bilstien is the best shock for the money.

 

[AEdelheit]

This video was made by a friend of mine, some of you may not enjoy it but its a scenario ive seen mulitiple times. .

News Flash! Ranchos dont work on Cummins Dodges... . - YouTube

News Flash! Ranchos dont work on Cummins Dodges Part 2 - YouTube

News Flash! Ranchos dont work on Cummins Dodges Part 3 - YouTube

 

[dresslered]

Thanks AEdelheit,

We have slightly different opinions on how a sway bar functions. I would prefer Bilsteins as well (I run them on my other vehicles) but chose the Ranchos for their adjustibility because of my varying load--either empty or a 4000+ lb. camper. I am not really interested in starting a shock war.



Right now I just want to get info on replacing the threaded insert in my frame.

 

[AEdelheit]

well either way good luck man, as long as it gets fixed and your happy all that matters!

 

[SRath]

David, is there enough room and insert material left to just drill and re-tap the insert to the next size bigger and use a bigger bolt? Even SAE would work.

 

[dresslered]

David, is there enough room and insert material left to just drill and re-tap the insert to the next size bigger and use a bigger bolt?

I looked at some even bigger nutzerts we had installed at work, and I am guessing that there isn't enought material to rethread, although it might be worth a try. It lookes like I'll have to tap the frame as well just to get to the fastener. Maybe the bolt on the inside is the best option.