2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Decibel Reduction

[Bratton]

Has anyone tried this out there? A 24 decibel reduction would be huge! The email below is the company President's response to a query from me. Is the noise nazi out there somewhere? I'm in the "wife hates the truck because it is too noisy club. " BD



****************************************************



Thank you for your inquiry into our Dodge kit. The inside cab noise is about 95 dB without any protection. The Ho Cummins is even louder unfortunately. After kit installation you should be around d 71 dB inside cab. You can actually talk and hear your radio without blasting the radio over the engine noise. I am including a post from one of my previous customers who like yourself thought about putting the kit on, it works and there is no other way to reduce the noise inside unless you go to great lengths to put sound materials inside the cab that really is an expensive way to go and you need to tear out your rugs etc. The three pieces most critical are the valve cover, oil pan and manifold/turbo.



Regards,



Tim Thompson



www.atpwrap.com











-----Original Message-----

From: Bratton DuBose [mailto:BDuBose@dadco.com]

Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 2:45 PM

To: -- email address removed --

Subject: noise reduction kit







Hi:







I have a 2002 Dodge Ram 2500 with the 6sp. and HO Cummins. What are some typical in cab Decibel reductions from installing the basic kit? If you have before and after numbers that would be very helpful.







Thanks,



Bratton DuBose



Bozeman,MT

 

[RThompson]

Since you are not getting any responses, here goes. Yes I would be interested in hearing from a user of this product. Your right, 24 decibels reduction is a lot. The web site is interesting and provides a lot of information on installation. Wondering if they offer a TDR discount. I will stop by their place in Santa Ana next time down that way just to take a look at what is offered. A demo of the noise reduction would certainly help make a sale.

 

[gbm]

In January of 2001 I purchased a “full Set” of blankets covers from ATP for the: Oil pan, Valve cover, Exhaust manifold, Turbocharger, Downpipe, and Hood liner. I had done some serious research into what was available, and was tremendously impressed with the quality of the ATP products. The quality of their products is Aerospace / Military. In 2 ½ years of use, and over 50,000 miles, the ATP products on my truck are “like new” no problems or issues what so ever. These are expensive components, and they really work well. I am not sure they reduced my trucks sound level by 24 Db’s, but they did provide a very noticeable sound reduction.

If you are looking into really reducing the sound level in the cab of your truck, additional soundproofing can make a significant noise reduction. On my truck, I pulled the interior and put down a “Dyna-mat” type material on the floor and rear wall. I covered the “Dyna-mat” on the floor with a layer of 2 ½ pound per square foot lead. I glued CSI sound stop foam on the rear wall of the cab. I removed the door panels and glued 1” CSI foam on the inside of the door skins – all four (quad cab). I also covered the complete firewall on the engine side with CSI foam. I removed the headliner and glued foil faced “Jute” to the roof of the cab. I insulated the “cowl” –the box that the windshield wiper motor sits in with “Dyna-mat” and foam.

I wish that I had purchased a Db meter prior to starting this project. I did purchase a Db meter about half way through the project, and it really helped quantify some of the changes. Lead sheeting on the floor and CSI foam on the back wall were a couple of the best “return on investments” – from a time and cost of material standpoint. Covering the complete firewall with the CSI foam was difficult and time consuming, but I really liked the result.

At first, I was concerned about over-insulating the engine, and causing heat related problems with the oil etc. . This has not been the case at all, marine and generator versions of our engines see far more insulation and work much harder that our trucks without any airflow over the block.

Now when my wife and I travel, we can talk at a normal voice level. We feel less fatigue after a long day on the road. The stereo system seems to sound better now that we don’t have it turned up as loud. We have also noticed that much less heat gets transferred into the cab, from the floor, firewall, and roof.

I know this was long, I hope it helps.

Geoff

 

[Lsfarm]

Noise reduction

I personally find it unlikely that a 24DB reduction in in cab noise levels is available just from the three blankets on the engine.



I started with engine blankets, but there is so little insulation on the cab that even road noise is a major contributor to cab sound levels. The cab is just a tin can with us ridiing inside.



It is not mentioned what scale the claimed 24 Db reduction was measured with, but from my experience it must be on the A scale. It is also not mentioned under what conditions the test was made: at idle? or 50 mph? or 70 mph?



Even with all the extensive sound proofing I have done on my engine AND cab I am just barely below 70 Db on the A scale this is at 70 MPH. I was around 86 steady 70mph, 95 at wot. . At idle my truck reads low 70's on C scale, and 58 Db on A scale. It was about 10 Db higher originally.



The removal of the seats and carpet is not a hugh job, and but it nets some very big sound level reductions when the right products are used to sound deaden the inside of the cab.



The ATP products are quality items, but can be duplicated by the truck owner for a lot less money and a bit of work.



good luck, Greg L the noise Nazi:



Check out this thread: https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=40821&highlight=Noise+Reduction

 

[FDziurda]

ATP Wrap

I had ATP Wrap install their kit on my 1999 CTD a couple years ago and have been very pleased with the results. I did not take any readings prior to having the kit installed, so I can't confirm how much reduction actually was achieved, however, I can confirm the trip home was noticeably more pleasant. It was "spendie" but if I had to do it again, I would. I'd suggest driving Tim Thompson's Dodge, at ATP Wrap, and deciding for yourself.



Frank Dziurda

 

[Lsfarm]

New Noise Nazi?

Geoff [gbm]: I nominate you to be the new Noise Nazi !! You have done a lot more than I have to reduce the sound pressure levels in our trucks. Especially on the doors and ceiling.

I have to concur with you on the mods that we both have done, mainly about the floor and back wall, definitely the best 'bang for the buck' Lead sheet and GSI foam are really effective.

Engine blankets can be made with the GSI www.soundstop.com [Great Southern Insulation] 1/2" foam and they are very effective. While not as aesthetically pleasing as the made-for-the-job blankets, the cost to make a valvecover and oil pan blanket is only about $150, and they will last for years.



IMHO the ATP products are for the owner who wants to instal a ready made, quality product. The 'Operation Quiet Cummins' project that I [and gbm] have done are more for the guy who wants to be creative and involved in the mods for their truck.



Take Care, Greg L. The Noise Nazi

 

[Bratton]

Thanks for all the replies guys! It sounds like the jury may still be out on the ATP products although there's no doubt that the quality is there. With my present situation workwise, I don't have a lot of time to put into a huge project, so I was hoping to find a somewhat quick fix that would get the noise down to a reasonable level.



It seems like valve noise is a major component of the problem. Does covering the valve cover eliminate much of it?



Thanks

 

[Lsfarm]

Valve Noise

Bratton, actually most of the noise is the injectors, and detonation in the combustion chamber which are radiating their noise throught the head and valvecover. If our valves made all that clatter, they would beat themselves to pieces very quickly.



I was actually very surprised when I made my first valvecover blanket, that there wasn't a huge reduction in under hood noise: the whole engine block and head radiate noise.



One of the major reasons that the G3 engine is so quiet is that the fuel is delivered in stages, so the ignition of the fuel [detonation] is accomplished in stages, kind of like: small hammer, bigger hammer, BIG hammer. Our G2 engines go like this: BIG Sledge hammer Wham! That and the injectors clattering are the main sources of noise. The G3 engines also have an extra part between the oil pan and the block that connect the sides of the block together [like a 'windage tray'] this reduces the noise that the oil pan radiates significantly.



The valve cover blanket helps, blankets covering the intake horn and injector lines and intake side of the head help more, an exhaust blanket helps too.



The oil pan is the big contributor to outside noise, and inside noise if there is no added insulation on the floor of the cab. Exhaust pipe noise radiating through the back wall and floor of the cab are next.



I sent you a PM.



Take care, Greg L the Noise Nazi

 

[Partyat33]

I put the lead sheat with GSI over it on the back wall and full GSI on the floors. The difference in the back seat is amazing. The back is so much quieter than the front now. So, with the help of the Noise Nazi, I am going to start working on the front.





Dennis

 

[klenger]

First off, I think that 95 db inside the cab is not anywhere near close. I had a db meter in my truck after I got it, and I think I was getting numbers more like 85 db.



2nd, I don't think the HO is any noisier than the SO, at least in normal driving.



3rd, check out the graph at the link below for a relative of noise levels. It's written in reference to generators, but noise is noise.



http://www.klenger.net/arctic-fox/generator-noise/graph.html

 

[Clinton]

I'm not trying to steal the thread here, but I've a quick question for those who have done their doors. I'm finishing up my noise reduction project and all that's left is the doors. Does anyone know what kind of adhesive is used to hold the water dam / vapor barrier to the door? It's pretty neat stuff; super strong, but lets you pull the barrier back without tearing it up.

 

[John]

Re: Noise reduction

Originally posted by Lsfarm

I personally find it unlikely that a 24DB reduction in in cab noise levels is available just from the three blankets on the engine.

Greg, I don't think that was a fair assessment by you. As a point of clarification, Mr. Tim Thompson stated that a 24 db reduction was possible with the use of their noise reduction kit. Actually, that would be BOTH of their kits...



1) valve cover blanket,

exhaust manifold/turbo blanket,

and downpipe blanket



2) hood blanket,

and oil pan blanket



Mr. Thompson later in his response stated that the three items mentioned would produce the most significant results (valve cover, oil pan, manifold/turbo). Whether or not they produce the stated noise reduction is not really my point or concern here, I just wanted set things straight. You see, without ALL the facts pertaining to the before, after and way in which the tests were run, it would be pure folly to "speculate. "



BTW, these extermely high quality kits can be purchased together or separately. A TDR discount is available IF you purchase either one or both of the kits. Any of the aforementioned pieces can be purchased separately however, the TDR discount is not offered. Also, they are totally open to custom modifications to their existing products as well as any custom ideas you may have.



I purchased one of their oil pan blankets in Feb. (I believe), and had them custom modify it to clear other accessories I had added. This charge was free. I sent them a template of what I needed and they made it happen... expertly, and expediently. Awesome products and awesome customer service!



As for total custom fabrication; JCBrown (long time NW BOMBer) had ATP fabricate a custom made blanket for his Espar muffler. It sufficiently quieted that little rascal down to an acceptable level. BTW, James was the first (only?) NW BOMBer to purchase the entire ATP noise reduction package (back when they only offered one package... that included everything sans the new oil pan blanket).



The only reason I purchased just the oil pan blanket (so far) is because I couldn't bring myself to cover up any of my chrome or custom parts. However, I will be purchasing a custom modified hood blanket.

 

[rweis]

Has anyone tried electronic noise cancellation like there is in a aircraft cockpit? Would not take the layers and layers of mechanical stuff.



Bob Weis

 

[Partyat33]

If you are not familiar with dB you might be suprised. A change of 3 dB is a change or half or double depening or whether it is an increase or decrease. 24 db reduction would be a factor or 256 times !!!! That is a LOT of reduction.



Just something to keep in mind.



Dennis

 

[Lsfarm]

Read it again

Hey John, read my posts again, I still say that 24DB is a pretty big reduction by just adding blankets to the engine and I will add: exhaust manifold and downpipe. Mr Thompson says KIT, not KITS. It doesn't matter how many kits we are talking about. What I said in my post was that even with a full set of blankets AND noise insulation in my cab, that I'm still just at around 20 db average drop in sound pressure. I don't believe that 24db drop is achievable with engine blankets alone.



I'm not speculating, I started my noise reduction project and have a fairly complete set of db readings as I went down the path of noise reduction with different products. And one of the major things I learned is that the conditions of the Db readings mean everything. It is pretty hard to develope 90+ db at a standstill, so the truck has to be under power on the road. When I'm rolling down the road at say 70 mph, reading 70db on the A scale, and I drop into neutral, and let the engine idle, the truck coasting, I get only a drop of 3-4Db, so the major contributor is still wind and road, and tire noise, not the engine. This is one reason why I have pursued cab insulation so much.



I also stated that the ATP products are like you emphasised: a Kit, more for the guy who wants to just add an accessory with a few twists of a screwdriver, but that there are far less expensive ways to accomplish the same end if a person wants to make it a calling or a project. I fall into the last catagory: I don't want or like to pay big dollars for a product that while it is really quality, is hidden under the truck or hood 99. 99(% of the time. Especially if I can duplicate the end result for a lot less cash. I like to experiment and try new products, not sink a bunch of cash into a one shot deal. Just depends on what floats your boat.



I responded to Bratton because I wouldn't want a TDR member to expect to see a 24Db reduction under the road conditions that can produce 95Db from our trucks, which is a modified truck at wot on the freeway. Under these conditions, I still can see 80 DB or more depending on headwind, tailwind road surface etc.



I'm not an expert, just an experienced experimenter. I'm not selling anything, just passing along my knowledge from my experiments.



You can pay for somone else's labor, or do it yourself, whatever works for you.



Greg L. the Noise Nazi.

 

[John]

Greg, my point was...



1) the word "kit" used to consist of everything made for the Dodge Ram by ATP. However, they decided to divorce part of the kit and add another piece (the oil pan blanket) thereby making two kits for the Dodge Ram. I would suspect this would be due to they price of the kit after they added the oil pan blanket... it might seem overwhelming to someone interested in their kit. This way, one could still obtain the TDR discount, buy it in two installments and not really break the bank so-to-speak. (JMO)



2) I was only suggesting that the 24 db reduction was probably on par to a Democrat proposed tax increase. You know, it more or less doesn't really sound all that bad the way they package it up however, once you dig beneath the surface one finds that it is loaded with a lot of pork. :-laf Anyway, it does seem far fetched to me that a 24 db noise reduction was obtained although, I'm not going to go so far as to call Tim Thompson a liar without the complete details of the facts.



BTW, in addition, to the ATP oil pan blanket I added to my Ram, I had progressively added a lot of Dynamat Xtreme and a Dynamat Hood blanket (I used the latter on my back cab wall in conjunction with two layers of Xtreme), to my Ram. I purchased the first of my Dynamat Xtreme JUST after it was released for sale. The first batch didn't even have the product logo or material name on the foil face. Heck, I must have started insulating my Ram at least three years ago now. Actually, it's a work in progress... I still have at least $350. to $500. worth of Dynamat Xtreme and Extreme Liner waiting to be installed.



Soon ( )





Partyat33, I may be wrong but...



I learned that a 7 db reduction equalled a 50% reduction in sound pressure. What I learned (right or wrong... or possibly factor in memory fade) may or may not be correct. Please elaborate further.

 

[Cooker]

Being in the car audio biz for a few years I learned alot about dB's and SPL (Sound Pressure Levels).



A 1dB change is barely noticeable to most ears.



A 3dB increase will double the signals level.



A 3dB decrease will halve the signals level.



A 10dB increase will increase the output 10 fold, a 20dB increase will increase the signal level 100 fold and a 30 dB increase will increase the signal level by 1000 times.



For reference normal speech is about 70dB and a circular saw running is about 105 dB's



These numbers may seem a little off the first time you read them, but keep in mind the scale is not linear.



I hope this helps a bit.

 

[Lsfarm]

whatever

John, PLEASE don't attribute the word Liar to anything I said. I said I found it unlikely to see a 24Db reduction, and then explainded why. And I explained why I posted [replied] in the first place.



The kits and contents and the discount structure for them have nothing to do with a 24 Db claimed reduction.



The sound level numbers just don't add up in any conditions I can or have imagined or experienced.



To make a stock truck generate 90+Db, requires WOT at high freeway speeds. If the truck is put in neutral at this speed, the truck will still generate 78+ DB coasting!! Now how can any amount of engine and exhaust blankets quiet that coasting sound level ?? Our trucks can be 71 Db quiet or quieter, but not under the same conditions that the truck could create 90+Db.



This is starting to sound like a transmission thread. So this is enough said. My posts stand on their own.



Greg L 'the Noise Nazi"

 

[John]

Greg, please don't think my intent was to start any kind of "war" here. I was just trying to make everything crystal clear for anyone else that may be interested in this subject. And, I did not in no uncertain terms make reference to you using the word "liar. " That word was selected solely by me, to be used by me, IF I was to find the data provided by Tim Thompson to be out and out wrong. From what you have told me (us) here, it would have to be somewhat misleading at the least. I would just like to know the parameters in which the test(s) were conducted.



Heck, for all we know the Ram in question could have been tested in absolute laboratory conditions, thereby eliminating all outside or extraneous noise.



Like I said, without being armed with ALL the facts, who really knows?



?

 

[KL]

When I started my noise reduction efforts I did not have a Db meter. I got one after awhile and took some readings (winter time). A few weeks later I also checked a friend who has a 2002 CTD, but has not done much noise reduction work as I did.

His was quieter then mine was. So I checked mine again and mine was quieter also. I think the warmer air temperature resulted in a change of a few Db. These trucks seem noisier when its colder outside. KL