DEF purity?

[Wayne M.]

It's a big issue. DEF contamination. Today I was shown a refractometer that shows DEF purity. Works the same as the refractometer for coolant. Here's the wiki on what it is for those not in the know.

I have an image of the instruction page which I will post later. I thought it was interesting to see, and it works well. Our sample was in range. I will also post this in the general diesel page.

 

[MJWenrich]

Wayne...I am curious why this is a big issue. I have heard about the degradation of the DEF from too much heat and that product stored over six months could become a problem but is there a problem with some suppliers out there?

 

[Dieselnerd]

I've never had a problem with any DEF I purchased in the container or at the pump.

 

[Wayne M.]

I'm sure there wouldn't be a problem, especially with store bought containers. We don't see many fuel problems, we're mostly lucky indeed. Damage by contamination to this system definitely wouldn't be a warranty issue, and would be financially devastating.
The operation I work for has seen issues with DEF. I don't know that the contamination was, but in my particular situation, the tank turned into a horrible milky mess. The fix was to drain, do a thorough flushing, replacing the filter that's in the units we have, and fill fresh. Fast forward to today, the fleet manager saw fit to get us a few of these refractors, just to be sure of fluid quality. It's good to eliminate DEF quality when chasing an issue. I imagine those who must have every neat device for their rigs would want to know about this.

 

[NC Hauler]

Thanks for the information....How much does the refractometer cost? I've got 25,000 miles on my truck and never had the first issue with DEF...not saying it can't happen, I've always bought it at the pump, and so far all has been well. I've not heard of very many issues with the Ram's DEF system, or people being unfortunate enough to put "bad" DEF in their tanks, but if the refractometer is say, $10 or $15, it might be worth if, but if it's more expensive than that..I'll just continue to do as I have for the last 19 months and not worry about it and hope it works out for me

 

[sag2]

The one Mopar indicates to use by the dealers is less than $100.

 

[Mawvelous]

Your post states DEF Purity. What you talk about is contamination. Please show me the proof that this is a big enough issue that one needs to carry such a tool. If you buy it thru a jobber or other source that sells it in sealed containers then how does it get contaminated? There is some potential for such an issue in bulk dispensers but I have not seen this and I have designed and installed or helped to design and install bulk dispensing systems in transit bases in the Seattle area. I have yet to hear of a failure related to the actual DEF on the over 400 buses we have that are using DEF. I haven't seen much chatter directly related to this in any forums I participate in either.
As far as shelf life it is up to 2 years unless it is exposed to extreme heat or direct sunlight. That would reduce the shelf life to 6 months or less. It freezes at 11 degrees. What happens then it the Urea separates from the water ( 32.5% Urea to 67.5 water) when the water thaws out it dissolves back into the water and it is perfectly good to use.

 

[Wayne M.]

Mawvelous, I'm not looking to hit any one person, accuse anything, or any other malicious act. If you've been on the TDR FOR ANY TIME, you'll know were a thorough bunch, who like to know about their vehicles, how they work, and how to bulletproof them. I see any fluid contamination a threat. We pretty much know how to check any other fluid in the vehicle except DEF. THE NEW KID ON THE BLOCK. I also know there are some who travel into extreme remote areas such as the Alcan hiway. If I were going up there and had to buy DEF from bulk, I think I would check it.
I have personally worked through a contamination issue so it is possible!

Here's the instruction sheet I promised. I apologize if it's disoriented.

 

[Wingate]

I would worry more about contamination coming from purchasing it at the pump vs buying in sealed containers. Any time you have human hands having to transport, fill, change tanks..etc.. theres always going to be the possibility for contamination.
As for myself, I simply get it in 2.5 gal jugs and ONLY when I actually need it. I do not stock up cause there is nothing good that can come from it. Also, if I open a container it all goes in the tank or the remainder goes in the trash. I think by doing this I have greatly reduced the contamination aspect. Only thing left would be a "purity" issue from the supplier and to remedy that all my DEF comes directly from Caterpillar. If theres a "purity" issue with their product I have avenues of recourse vs griping at some idiot at the local gas station.

 

[Wayne M.]

Cat parts n stuff is above top shelf.

 

[Stab]

Well, hell! Now I have to buy a refractometer!

 

[Wayne M.]

Well, hell! Now I have to buy a refractometer!

Get one for your coolant too! :-laf
Best part is your neighbors will think your aiming a weapon.

 

[mwilson]

That would appear to be the same coolant and electrolyte refractometer that I already own. Just has a new DEF mark added to the scale.

Looks like one tool does it all. No need for several different ones.

 

[Wayne M.]

I'm not sure what's common about them. Is it just the scale?

 

[mwilson]

It looks like one tool does it all. The one that you show will do all three things in one. Mine will do two simply because it is not marked for the DEF, but I could use it for DEF because I now know where the mark is......

A refractometer is a must for anybody's toolbox nowadays. Many of the extended life coolants will not read properly for freeze protection with a standard floating ball type tester. I have proved it several times right here in the showroom. CAT extended life coolant is one of the coolants that require a refractometer for accurate testing.

 

[Wayne M.]

Your input is always golden Mike!

 

[Mawvelous]

Mawvelous, I'm not looking to hit any one person, accuse anything, or any other malicious act. If you've been on the TDR FOR ANY TIME, you'll know were a thorough bunch, who like to know about their vehicles, how they work, and how to bulletproof them. I see any fluid contamination a threat. We pretty much know how to check any other fluid in the vehicle except DEF. THE NEW KID ON THE BLOCK. I also know there are some who travel into extreme remote areas such as the Alcan hiway. If I were going up there and had to buy DEF from bulk, I think I would check it.
I have personally worked through a contamination issue so it is possible!

Here's the instruction sheet I promised. I apologize if it's disoriented.
View attachment 90266

As always good info on this forum. I never thought that this was done maliciously. The thread and the quote states 2 issues. purity & contamination. In my mind purity would address the solution dilution or inertness. For instance we tried PVC piping in our first bulk multi-station installation. DEF piping MUST be stainless steel or HDPE plastics.This apply to all DEF components. Special seals must be used or it leaks. Special pipe dope must be used or it leaks past tapered pipe threads (!) PVC piping renders the product inert. In that first installation we had to remove the PVC piping and use stainless piping and SS Swageloc fittings. That (inert solution)speaks to a purity issue. This stuff will corrode mild steel and aluminum in short order. Imagine using black pipe for this application. The pipe would break down internally and contaminate the fluid with corroded metal particles. We had to retro fit one fleet of buses with a dry fill apparatus because the DEF tank filler was higher in rear compartment. The servicing crews would fill the tanks and often it would drip down on the aluminum AC compressor direct beneath it after filling. The shop were dealing with replacing within a few months.
You state this is a big issue and I asked that proof be shown. You state you are thorough I certainly respect that. Show some proof that this is a big issue. Spilling this stuff on ANY mild steel surface is a big issue. Painted surfaces are immune to damage. I would be and am much more concerned and thorough about filling my tank W/O spilling. If you spill wash it off by flushing with water ASAP and be very thorough about doing so.

 

[Mawvelous]

Painted surfaces are not immune to damage

 

[Wayne M.]

Mawvelous, This is a big issue if it winds up being your personal truck that was filled with contaminated fluid somehow, and it'll be the owner who will pay thousands to fix it. That's how it's a big issue. If I owned a SCR equipped vehicle, I would consider my DEF handling a big issue. IMHO, it's big in priority, I'm not stating it's an epidemic. I can't prove how often it's happened, I don't have stats for the industry. I'm not discrediting people like yourself who set up the infrastructure. I thank you for sharing details even if you didn't intend.
Purity and contamination go hand in hand. If fluid becomes contaminated, it's purity is compromised.
I was merely sharing a testing tool I was introduced to. I thought gadget guys would like to know.
I hope this clears up any confusion. Your name isn't Harvey, is it?

 

[Mawvelous]

No I am not Harvey whoever that might be. I think we have boiled this down to 3 simple letters: IMO. I respect your opinion and thank you for the info. You are a valued member. I am signing off this thread Merry Christmas!