DEF Saga

[Cummins2014]

Took my 2014 3500 in today for yet another DEF issue, had a flash done. This is the fourth episode with the same issue. I get the " Service DEF System see dealer " . Throws a P207F ,and a CEL. Then goes into the mile countdown , then after a few miles everything goes away except the CEL ,and the stored message code

They found DEF deposits on the injector assembly and decomposition tube, removed the deposits and cleaned the tube ,and injector. Service tech is starting to think that it may be the usage of the truck, he thinks it could be building up the deposits on the DEF injector from sitting. It does not get driven that often ,when I'm home. I only get the message after adding DEF, it makes sense that its building up deposits, and when the system runs a check I get the Service DEF message.

When the parts are available, apparently they are not for 3500 , the recall on the SCR replacement will happen. It will happen they say, kind of like the track bar recall.

 

[jelag]

someone posted, (bob4x4 or sag2) that the ECM only looks at the DEF system after it sees the fluid level rise after you've added fluid... its something to do with time management of the ECM.... so its waiting for the fluid level to change and than does the testing... I would be interested to see if its really the issue that the truck sits... My new to me 2013 will be sitting for a length of time later this year... Wish I could share more...

 

[Jared Herzog]

How many gallons of def trigger a check? Is it 2.5? 3? All the way full? I have never had any issues and i add bucees def and it is only 2 gallons at a time. I wonder if there is a threshold and what it is. But, my truck never really sits and gets driven at highway speeds for hours at a time. I did have one job that was 100 yards round trip and did that for an entire summer.
I have been hearing different things on the 3500 recall. One is it is exactly the same as the 2500 which i think it should be. The other is that since they are in a different emission tier that it is a sensor removal and a flash to go along with it. No new SCR. I see my vin is associated but i have no real details and no other notifications. Hope it is a new SCR and i will wait for issues before going in so i can start fresh with the SCR further into the life of the truck.

 

[Cummins2014]

someone posted, (bob4x4 or sag2) that the ECM only looks at the DEF system after it sees the fluid level rise after you've added fluid... its something to do with time management of the ECM.... so its waiting for the fluid level to change and than does the testing... I would be interested to see if its really the issue that the truck sits... My new to me 2013 will be sitting for a length of time later this year... Wish I could share more...

Its pretty crazy, the only code I get is P207F which can be bad DEF or a bad SCR among a couple other things. They did say if it was something more serious they usually throw a bunch of codes, mine is just the one. The DEF has been checked twice now, and was okay. I'm thinking it could be related to sitting, and then adding DEF ,and getting a system check, and a warning.

I would really like to know how to remove that injector ,and tube ,and clean them. It does not appear to be much of a process, and could solve my issues.

 

[Cummins2014]

How many gallons of def trigger a check? Is it 2.5? 3? All the way full? I have never had any issues and i add bucees def and it is only 2 gallons at a time. I wonder if there is a threshold and what it is. But, my truck never really sits and gets driven at highway speeds for hours at a time. I did have one job that was 100 yards round trip and did that for an entire summer.
I have been hearing different things on the 3500 recall. One is it is exactly the same as the 2500 which i think it should be. The other is that since they are in a different emission tier that it is a sensor removal and a flash to go along with it. No new SCR. I see my vin is associated but i have no real details and no other notifications. Hope it is a new SCR and i will wait for issues before going in so i can start fresh with the SCR further into the life of the truck.

I was told today when in for this episode , when you add DEF ,and change the level it runs a system check. I was also told on this forum if you ran the DEF down to near empty ,and don't fill it it won't run a system check, well I think that is BS.

My last visit before this one to get the DEF injector cleaned ,and the CEL ,and code deleted I ran the DEF to about 1/4 tank ,and only added 2.5 gals. no issues. Ran that tank down to near empty added 2.5 gals. went 50 miles and the DEF issue popped back up ,so filling or not filling I don't think makes any difference. I think it had time to get a build up on the injector this last time I added DEF.

Was also told to today that the recall is for a new SCR, but the 3500 is different ,even mentioned the different number code between the two. Listening to them it is a new SCR on the recall, whatever else I don't know. I am also on the recall according to my vin, and was also told this today at the dealer. We will see.

 

[Newsa]

If the truck sits, it is more likely the water will evaporate out of the def faster than the def degrades.

This might cause a supersaturated solution of def which can cause crystals to fall out (precipitate out) of solution clogging the injector. A pint of reagent grade deionized water added to your tank is my solution. Or, take it to the dealer

 

[Cummins2014]

If the truck sits, it is more likely the water will evaporate out of the def faster than the def degrades.

This might cause a supersaturated solution of def which can cause crystals to fall out (precipitate out) of solution clogging the injector. A pint of reagent grade deionized water added to your tank is my solution. Or, take it to the dealer

Pretty sure thats whats happening to me after talking with them, and hearing what you just said. I can deal with that, still would like to be able to clean that injector. I want to drive it like I want. I use it mostly just to tow the fifth wheel, then it sits for a month or two with maybe a short trip once a week or 10 days.

 

[Newsa]

Some have complained that the DEF tanks are too small. But i think they put the small tanks on the consumer versions of the trucks for good reason. Of course, the commercial versions have the larger def tank. They could have made some money by offering the larger tank as an option. Many won't want to switch out the tanks in their greasy garaages because it doesn't take much to contaminate the system. Those assembly plants are very clean environments.

 

[kthaxton]

This might cause a supersaturated solution of def which can cause crystals to fall out (precipitate out) of solution clogging the injector. A pint of reagent grade deionized water added to your tank is my solution. Or, take it to the dealer

I'd hazard a guess that adding DI water to the tank will not likely change anything at the injector while sitting unused. I would also guess that if the DEF was watered down enough to make any difference in how quickly it crystalizes in the injector....that it would also be so dilute that that the sensor would recognize it as inadequate DEF.
If there was a way to flush the injector with DI water, I'm sure that would clear it out....but that won't be good for the exhaust (if this takes place without the engine running) since DI water is quite aggressive to metals.

I would guess that starting it up occasionally so just the existing DEF gets flushed through the injector would be just as effective.

 

[Dieselnerd]

I think the sitting thing is BS. Mine is driven a lot in the winter when I am down south and it's my daily driver.

Once I get home in April, I only drive it every couple of weeks and I go for 7 months or more without adding DEF.

If it was going to evaporate and foul the injector it would certainly do it during the hot summer months when it sits.

 

[Cummins2014]

I think the sitting thing is BS. Mine is driven a lot in the winter when I am down south and it's my daily driver.

Once I get home in April, I only drive it every couple of weeks and I go for 7 months or more without adding DEF.

If it was going to evaporate and foul the injector it would certainly do it during the hot summer months when it sits.

Whether its BS or not its happening regardless of the cause.

Mine was in for the DEF message last October, the injector was cleaned then , the DEF tank was nearly 3/4 full at that time. It pretty much sat for all of Nov, Dec, Jan. Early Feb we went to Arizona with the fifth wheel ,during that time I had to add DEF without issues. Got home early March. Truck pretty much sat rest of March, and April. This month a couple 200 mile trips, had to add DEF on this last 200 mile trip last thursday, and got the message, and countdown.

 

[Cummins2014]

I will have to add ,had a lengthy conversation with the service manager. He asked me what DEF I was using, told him Peak, he asked if I wanted to use Mopar DEF, he would sell it to me at cost. Alluded to the fact he was not seeing issues with the Mopar brand. Thats when the lengthy conversation began. I told him all DEF is made to the same specs.

I also told him that my son fell into this same trap, paying over twice for Mopar DEF . I just happened to ask him one day what DEF he was using on his 2016 Cummins, he told me Mopar. This was a year ago, now he uses Peak. His truck is used to tow daily, and has had no issues .


I told the service manager that I would humor him, and use Mopar the next time, he said what could it hurt, and I said other then about 7-8 dollars per jug more then Peak at his cost, nothing I will buy it, and make sure he sees that I poured it in the truck before I leave. I have no doubt this problem will arise again, and I want Mopar DEF in it this time . Somehow they seemed convinced that the Mopar brand DEF is the only thing that should be used in the Cummins.

 

[Dieselnerd]

Whether its BS or not its happening regardless of the cause.

Mine was in for the DEF message last October, the injector was cleaned then , the DEF tank was nearly 3/4 full at that time. It pretty much sat for all of Nov, Dec, Jan. Early Feb we went to Arizona with the fifth wheel ,during that time I had to add DEF without issues. Got home early March. Truck pretty much sat rest of March, and April. This month a couple 200 mile trips, had to add DEF on this last 200 mile trip last thursday, and got the message, and countdown.

My point was that even though mine sits around in the summer it does not get the DEF message you get.

I don't doubt that some crud may develop on the injector from sitting. Many of these trucks used to tow RV's sit around for extended periods.

Cleaning it just temporarily covers up the real cause.

 

[sag2]

TC keeps claiming he uses deionized water only with no problems. I'm not sure I believe it but have not tried it to prove it wrong so I will withhold judgement. Removing the injector is fairly straight forward. It just pulls straight out. FYI the () indicate the item in the diagrams that did not copy over.

25 - Emissions Control / Diesel Exhaust Fluid Emissions / INJECTOR, Diesel Exhaust Fluid/Removal

REMOVAL

1. Disconnect and isolate both of the negative battery cables.

2. Disconnect the Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) injector wire harness connector (2).

3. Disconnect the DEF fluid supply line (1).

4. Saturate the DEF injector bolts with Moper® Rust Inhibitor. Allow 5 minutes for penetration.

5. Remove bolts (3) and the DEF injector (1) from the Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) catalyst (2).

6. Remove and discard gasket.

 

[Cummins2014]

My point was that even though mine sits around in the summer it does not get the DEF message you get.

I don't doubt that some crud may develop on the injector from sitting. Many of these trucks used to tow RV's sit around for extended periods.

Cleaning it just temporarily covers up the real cause.

I agree, but what that real cause is seems to be a mystery. The crazy part is I get the CEL, I get the 150 mile countdown to the 5 mph limp mode, and then at about the 80 mile mark it all goes away but the CEL, with no more warnings.

 

[Cummins2014]

TC keeps claiming he uses deionized water only with no problems. I'm not sure I believe it but have not tried it to prove it wrong so I will withhold judgement. Removing the injector is fairly straight forward. It just pulls straight out. FYI the () indicate the item in the diagrams that did not copy over.

25 - Emissions Control / Diesel Exhaust Fluid Emissions / INJECTOR, Diesel Exhaust Fluid/Removal

REMOVAL

1. Disconnect and isolate both of the negative battery cables.

2. Disconnect the Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) injector wire harness connector (2).

3. Disconnect the DEF fluid supply line (1).

4. Saturate the DEF injector bolts with Moper® Rust Inhibitor. Allow 5 minutes for penetration.

5. Remove bolts (3) and the DEF injector (1) from the Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) catalyst (2).

6. Remove and discard gasket.

I did get on youtube to see if there was a video on doing it ,there was a couple on the ecodiesel. Didn't really see much on the Cummins. Although thats not the solution, at least I could fix it. I am not sure this problem would ever shut me down, it just goes away after about 70 miles, at least the warnings do.

 

[Newsa]

As for DI harming the exhaust system metal. It will obviously vaporize instantly in the exhaust stream and be the same as the water by products of combustion and the water in the DEF.

Exhaust systems will eventually corrode. But over several years. I doubt adding a small amount of DI to the def will harm anything.

As for adding it to the tank. This would only be a preventative measure. Would not unclog a clogged pump or injector.

 

[Newsa]

As for DI harming the exhaust system metal. It will obviously vaporize instantly in the exhaust stream and be the same as the water by products of combustion and the water in the DEF.

Exhaust systems will eventually corrode. But over several years. I doubt adding a small amount of DI to the def will harm anything.

As for adding it to the tank. This would only be a preventative measure. Would not unclog a clogged pump or injector.

 

[kthaxton]

As for DI harming the exhaust system metal. It will obviously vaporize instantly in the exhaust stream and be the same as the water by products of combustion and the water in the DEF.

Exhaust systems will eventually corrode. But over several years. I doubt adding a small amount of DI to the def will harm anything.

As for adding it to the tank. This would only be a preventative measure. Would not unclog a clogged pump or injector.

As I said, it would harm it only if the engine wasn't running (i.e. as a theoretical storage option which is the only way I could see it cleaning the nozzle yet not being too dilute for the sensor). To add enough DI water to be a solvent in normal operation would also likely be too dilute for the sensor.....basically my opinion is this is not a viable "cleaning" option.

 

[Cummins2014]

As I said, it would harm it only if the engine wasn't running (i.e. as a theoretical storage option which is the only way I could see it cleaning the nozzle yet not being too dilute for the sensor). To add enough DI water to be a solvent in normal operation would also likely be too dilute for the sensor.....basically my opinion is this is not a viable "cleaning" option.

IMO taking it off ,and cleaning seems to be a better solution. It appears to be a simple procedure, and safest.

IMO my issues will never go away with the present setup, and I will be back to the dealer in a few months. My DEF tank shows nearly full, got a trip planned in a month so I will probably be okay until fall, when I will have to add DEF again.