Demineralized water, mix with alcohol (for cooling)?

[rweis]

I am going to use . 5gph moderate pressure (45 psi) misters on 2 fuel coolers I use to cool the fuel being delivered to the VP44.



The tank I had made has a 9" screw opening in the top and I could even make a water / ice mix depending on what I was misting. If misting the fuel coolers only a water / ice mix could work I think. As the component to be cooled runs hotter (transmission cooler, intercooler) the stress caused from the large temperature difference of the mist and the component would probably rule out using a water / ice mix.



Neither fuel cooler goes much above 140*. However I want to be able to deliver 100* or less fuel temperature to the VP44 under any condition. I would like some discussion on what demineralized water mix or additive (with what and in what proportion) might lend itself to the minimum scale deposit.



Secondly I might mist the transmission cooler (temps generally less that 200*) as a second experiment. Again what water mix and in what proportions, what additive?



Thirdly, and would be lastly, and might not even be a player, to mist the intercooler / radiator system. This is the hottest system and probably the most prone to scale from hot instant evaporation on contact. Although the most temperature sensitive due to the larger heat range, the engine cooling is not a problem.



Just looking for ideas for the cooling fluid, and some general discussion.



Bob Weis

 

[steved]

On the radiator note... you will plug it very quickly running a mist of water over it... the dirt will build very quickly and eventually plug the fins...



steved

 

[RustyJC]

+1 on the fouling problem. Customers have tried spraying water on undersized fin-fan coolers in the oilfield and found them caked with mud in short order. If they used raw water, it's even worse - they were caked with mud and calcium!



Rusty

 

[rweis]

Hummmm, those comments do not bode well for the concept misting a flat plate cooler, but facts are facts regardless. Maybe not a flat plate cooler or a "traditional" finned cooler.



Just thinking out loud, one of the passive coolers I have is a finned tube cooler. It is a 2" cylindrical tube with fittings on the flat end and has 1/2" fins radiating out from the OD of the tube down the longitudional axis.



Right now it is mounted longitudionally in the direction of the truck frame. It is strickly a slick tube with radial fins. A possibility?



I wonder if the mechanical air flow would keep the slick sides clean for efficient heat transfer. It would be easy to swap the current flat plate cooler for 2 or 3 of the finned tube coolers in a stacked array with misters on all sides (longitudionally) of each finned tube cooler. Thoughts.



I can accept the discussion of the intricateness of a standard flat plate or woven cooler could easily cake up because of the small passages, even with velocity air through it.



Thanks,



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Bob - ya might just be better off burying that finned cooler INSIDE yer water tank as the cooling method, and just let it go at that... :-laf

 

[Boondocker]

I have seen computer CPU radiators, for lack of the correct term. Essentially, it is a fanned, heat sink mounted to a sealed core that flows a fluid coolant. I don't know what causes the flow of coolant, maybe just convection, I don't think there is a pump. Maybe something like this could be mounted to the top of the VP and cool the electronics directly. This is not a fuel cooler, strictly electronics.



Just a thought,

Neil

 

[steved]

I have seen computer CPU radiators, for lack of the correct term. Essentially, it is a fanned, heat sink mounted to a sealed core that flows a fluid coolant. I don't know what causes the flow of coolant, maybe just convection, I don't think there is a pump. Maybe something like this could be mounted to the top of the VP and cool the electronics directly. This is not a fuel cooler, strictly electronics.



Just a thought,

Neil

Same thing with a electrical transformer... uses naturally occurring convection to "stir" the internals... heat rises, cold falls... this is true for most liquids.



I don't care what kind os external cooler is use, it will net the same result with a water spray... I mean, think of even a fairly clean environment such as a house... and then look at the cooling fins on the back of a fridge that has ran for a while...



Gary hit the nail on the head... a heat exchanger would be best... in theory you could actually use the cold line from the AC to cool half af an heat exchanger then pull fuel through the other half...net result would be cool fuel... and NO AIRFLOW through the cooler.



steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I have seen computer CPU radiators, for lack of the correct term. Essentially, it is a fanned, heat sink mounted to a sealed core that flows a fluid coolant. I don't know what causes the flow of coolant, maybe just convection, I don't think there is a pump. Maybe something like this could be mounted to the top of the VP and cool the electronics directly. This is not a fuel cooler, strictly electronics.



Just a thought,

Neil

UMmmmm - you mean sorta like THIS:



-

 

[rweis]

Gary,



I thought about that and had the tank built so I could if it came to that. The problem I see is getting rid of the heat buildup in the water in the tank. If I am misting a xxxxx the water is dumped overboard from the mister and the heat is taken with it rather than confined to the tank. However, anything is a possibility.



Boondocker,



Yep, they actually have little pumps moving the cooling fluid. It is a little closed fluid cooling system. I have considered that, but think the evaporative misting might be able to dissipate more heat.



Bob Weis

 

[steved]

Gary,



I thought about that and had the tank built so I could if it came to that. The problem I see is getting rid of the heat buildup in the water in the tank. If I am misting a xxxxx the water is dumped overboard from the mister and the heat is taken with it rather than confined to the tank. However, anything is a possibility.



Boondocker,



Yep, they actually have little pumps moving the cooling fluid. It is a little closed fluid cooling system. I have considered that, but think the evaporative misting might be able to dissipate more heat.



Bob Weis

I still think that if you used the AC in conjunction with a heat exchanger, that would eliminate your problem... you could simply have a thermistor that turned the AC on when the exchanger temperature exceeded 100*... you could actually put cold fuel into the cylinders at any temperature if you wanted by using the AC. No recharging of cooling water, not dirty coolers... once and done.



steved

 

[RustyJC]

Bob,



Two words - absorption refrigeration. Your heat source is as close as your turbo downpipe. :-laf :-laf



Rusty

 

[Headshot zod]

gary, I'm an severe overclocker (4gz @ -38*) when it comes to computers. Maybe what you need is a water based cpu cooler. You could fab one up cheaply. get a block of copper drill some holes through it and block up a couple of them with bolts and run water through it. Check for "water cooled cpu" in google.

 

[rweis]

Well, after much thought and taking into account the advice given ( and believe me I do take your ideas VERY seriously because you members have MUCH experitse) I have decided to do some experimentation.



As the summer unfolds and OAT's are reaching 95* I am finding the fuel temps are climbing as well (in proportion, generally linearly). The EBC temps are linearly matching the fuel input temps rise (+ a factor based on VP44 rpm's) and are starting to get into the "uncomfortable" range for me (130*) (remember I said uncomfortable for me).



I have decided to do some fuel cooling experimentation with the medium pressure misting system.



The return fuel frame mounted fuel rail type coolers will be the first iteration. They do not have any powered fans attached and are strickly just mounted on the frame side of the runningboard (not mounted on the frame, but the frame side of the runningboard away from the frame by probably 12").



I started here because they are the easiest to modify, out of the way of any electrical sources at all, open to natural circulation, and easier to temperature check, and no actual truck modifications.



I am not quite settled on what the fluid will be yet (maybe not water because of the mineral content problem). I would like your input on maybe using alcohol as the medium, or a water alcohol mix. The nylon type tank is a polyethylene chemical container commercial spray tank, but I will check with the manufacture if it will handle pure alcohol.



Well, isopropyl alcohol is not compatible according to the tank manufacture. Isopropyl and polyethylene do not play together well.



I will report back here on results of blockages, fouling, temperature differences, and general design results.



Thanks for all and any additional inputs.



Bob Weis

 

[steved]

Pure alcohol would be pretty expensive as well as flamable too... I don't think I would do a straight alcohol spray.



I would consider a mix of alcohol and water (deionized and demineralized) preferably.



You can make your own mineral free water by getting a deionizing resin column off eBay... I'm going to set up a filter cluster for filtering city water for my fishtank, the reason I know these exist.



steved

 

[steved]

Another thought is depending on the part of the country you live in (hot and arid), you might not even need the alcohol. As long as the water evaporates on the fins, it is more than sufficient...



steved

 

[rweis]

Maybe a mix of propylene glycol (non toxic antifreeze) and water.



I will look on EBay for "deionizing resin column", had not thought of that.



Thanks,



Bob Weis



I live in central florida, and evaporating off the fins should not be a problem, but I also want to test for members that may be in other areas of the country. Of course in winter, an misting spray is not necessary.

 

[rweis]

What about a water / bleach mix? 20 gallons of water to 1 gallon of bleach?



Bob Weis

 

[Headshot zod]

you mean a peltier cooler? you would have to figure how many watts it could absorb. Thats why I thought a lapped water cooled palte may be better.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

you mean a peltier cooler? you would have to figure how many watts it could absorb. Thats why I thought a lapped water cooled palte may be better.

I looked into one of those back when Bob's original VP-44 temp thread started - and found that size and current draw for one that appeared to best fit our needs was too high for extended use after engine (and alternator!) shutdown. Also, those sized devices get pretty costly...



Haven't rechecked recently to see if that technology has improved...

 

[rweis]

I think I am going to teach my VP44 to swim.



One of the ideas is to add mist to the VP44 outside air cooling blower air stream. The air stream should make the 55um dropplets into a even finer mist and at least raise the cooling ability (ie increase the ability of the air flow to carry off heat) of the air flow.



One blower, one mist head (. 6 gph), and 250 cfm air stream.



Would it not be a gas (diesel) if the VP44 turned out that it could be used as a fuel tank fluid cooler / heat sink in the summer, and just turn off the mist in the winter and use the VP44 as a fuel heater? Oo.



Bob Weis



I do not have the OEM fuel heater / filter installed right now. As things progress, if it is at all possible to reinstall it so that others can leave theirs in place OEM I will try to do that.