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Competition DIESEL DRAG RACING ENGINE vs. DIESEL PULLING ENGINES

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I have long been a proponent of a Drag racing engines ability to Rev-Gain , the definition of this is to accelerate at a given RPM’s per second . some engines like to do this and diesels inherently don’t. The diesel responds dramatically to efforts to make it work that way, guess because it has so far to go that it makes it up in leaps and bounds.



I believe that a pulling motor is way over fueled , and will make power , but this power in not applicable to accelerating a drag racing vehicle down the track. IMO the added duration of big pumps only adds fuel to the end of the combustion cycle , and this contributes to the incomplete combustion process. While this may make a small amount of additional power , it is near the point of demising returns. The better way is to put more fuel in at the right time and better atomize this fuel.

Any engine has the point in degrees , or thousands down the hole where you need to make peak cylinder pressure , and this point is the same at any given RPM , that is specify the need to lead more and more timing as a motor revs up, to achieve that peak point , if you achieve that pressure to soon , by loading the motor down low , or with to much timing for that given RPM you create pressure spikes where nothing will hold the pressure in , something has to give , and its usually the head gasket , I believe that most head sealing procedures are nothing more then trying to fix a incorrect tune up.



You can also speed up flame front propagation with different additives , or by better atomizing the injected fuel and this also reduces the amount of lead or timing required to make everything happen at precisely the right time.



The 1400 hp puller is a fact , talked the guy that uses his special dyno to pull these big motors , but the motors are not accelerated , and sometimes pulled down the RPM scale . the reason is that is the way a puller runs the motor so you must dyno in real world conditions. On the SF901 I use we run a program for NASCAR engines where the motor is accelerated and decelerated for hours looking to find the little link that will make more power at the end of the race where everything is wearing down. On a drag racing power plant , you must run the motor the way it is intended also , meaning at a given rev-gain . this takes a lot of power and the big numbers away as the motor is chasing the dyno. The tune up for running this way is designed to give maximum hp at that acceleration rate, in Pro Stock , or any other maximum effort motor program , we would have different timing curves for each gear , if a timing curve was used when the motor was not accelerating at the race designed for that given curve you would find the ring lands lifted



I talked to Scott Bentz and one of the reason, I believe he kinked out a head gasket was going in to lock up way to low a RPM and unit loading the motor , causing a pressure spike that nothing will hold it. I think that it is easer to hold in cylinder pressure in a drag motor , but the tune up is less forgiving on fuel curve , to much fuel and the motor gets last , to little and the Egt’s go way up, my motor has stupid Egt’s and is totally cleaned up. But this motor will rev and pull, on a few lapsI have left it in 3rd to see what the motor will do up around 5000+ RPM’s , the truck was still pulling . 32 G’s in the traps at 5400



In conclusion , I am not going to give any more of the small deals away , but will be talking in genialities , and basis engine design and assembly .
 
as each relates to the parts and development need to advance in power . just because a motor is a good puller , might mean it will not perform and expected in a drag situation. I believe that if engine builders are academically honest they will figure it out , but they still have to understand the principals of getting it down the track and making maximum accelerating at as early a spot on the track as possible. The most room for improvement is in the first foot ,and not the last.



I believe that you must not change the sport and allow long tree intervals , meaning a low time between completing staging and when the tree drops to allow a puller type motor to sit and spool its heart out , you must build a motor that can be raced in the real world of drag racing .
 
you must build a motor that can be raced in the real world of drag racing



Not trying to start anything, but who is to say that DIESEL drag racing is not a different breed for right now? The parts needed for a project like your working with are super high dollar, and mostly unattainable to folks, unless they have a huge budget.



I think down the road there will be a day that diesel's catch gas in terms of running the same feild, but that day is years away. For now I say allow a longer staging time, only because the technology, and things that needed to be learned, have not been delt with yet, for most. It's really all just a big learning curve, and untill we have trucks that spool in 3 seconds like the big boys in the gasser world do, there needs to be some certain allowences made.



Keep learning, and passing it on, because the more we all learn, the sooner our day will come.



:)
 
Thats right CHIMP461, just keep posting for the world to see that it CAN"T be done, it will be more fun to feed you that crow...



Anyone time the Scheid rail spool up time at IRP? :D
 
Did they ever get that rail down the track, I've never even heard a number out of it... ... . are they getting burned out on it already.



On a side note I sure like my motor in the higher RPM's... ..... or higher to me. Barring traction it will never see below 3K on run, I've had it spooled hard before on a shift and it went to 2500 and felt like is was about to break something, but higher than 2800 it doesn't and just MPH like a big dog.



Jim
 
Sled Puller said:
Anyone time the Scheid rail spool up time at IRP? :D

We were right behind them in the staging lanes, and got a video. I timed it, and it is about 6 seconds from the final stage beam until the launch. That is a lot better than a few others out there.
 
Jim Fulmer said:
Did they ever get that rail down the track, I've never even heard a number out of it... ... . are they getting burned out on it already.



On a side note I sure like my motor in the higher RPM's... ..... or higher to me. Barring traction it will never see below 3K on run, I've had it spooled hard before on a shift and it went to 2500 and felt like is was about to break something, but higher than 2800 it doesn't and just MPH like a big dog.



Jim



Jim, yes Eric took it down the track. Never a light to light full pass but one pass in the 8. 80's I believe.



I think BALANCE is what is needed.
 
It spools quick, it's gone 1320' under full power quite a few times. The converter game, as Scott Bentz warned us, is tough. We haven't found a converter to hold yet.

And, btw, isn't the sled pulling sport a virtual drag race? He who gets the wheel speed the quickest goes the furthest?

Funny, a member on TDR said the SDM pulling truck has a drag racing engine, and now the rail has a sled pulling engine? That's ironic isn't it? And, a lot of people on here ASSume that the engine will go untouched, untuned and ignored..... hehehe keep thinking that.
 
Sleddy-- you crack me up. Too bad your talents for smart-aleck remarks aren't being used in something more productive.



COMP has a lot of good points. Rev gain is the distinguishing difference imo between a puller and a racer.



That said, the racer may NOT need to have a huge amount of rev gain, IF the transmission is setup for it. Think of a CVT or something similar to it. Torque converter technology is really advancing, and promises to be one of the most exciting areas of drag racing development. How far are we away from a "variable" converter that flashes to very high rpm, then comes down and pulls like a freight train the whole run? Probably not as far as some may think.



Think of a really light car geared with a simple one-speed transmission and this trick converter. The REAL magic of this setup is that the engine will NOT have to rev gain-- it could just rev to it's max TQ rpm and sit there until the run is over.



But until such a transmission/converter setup becomes a reality, and cars are able to run with only one gear, a racer WILL have to rev-gain. The puller does not, nor will it ever have to.



It's somewhat ignorant to think that pulling technology is the same as racing technology-- they are simply different animals.



Consider the different training methods of certain athletes. A sprinter OBVIOUSLY trains differently that a powerlifter! Do you think a sprinter could hold a heavy bar as weight is continually added as well as a powerlifter? Or how about a powerlifter lumbering down the 100 meters?



Power is NOT power-- there are diffferent flavors. Do you think that a 600hp Cat engine will accelerate as fast as a 600hp Big Block? OF COURSE NOT. Will that big block pull 80K# uphill all day? NOT A CHANCE.



Look at how different are the engines used in different racing categories. An F1 Champ car engine is quite different than a NASCAR engine, which is different than a Fuel engine, which is different than (insert class here)... .





I'll say it again: The Cummins 5. 9 is incredibly far from ideal for building an extreme-performance diesel.



So what would a fictitious uber-performance diesel engine look like? Well, it would be a V-12, 48 valves, 24 injectors. It would be VERy short stroke-- less than 2. 5 inches. Longish rods and superlightweight pistons help to increase RPM potential.



The goal is a 12K-15K rpm diesel engine! The problem then is the diesel fuel itself-- it simply burns too slowly to be used at those high RPMs. So we'll switch to direct-injection Methanol.



What? A diesel running on Methanol? YES!! AND IT'S STILL A DIESEL! A diesel engine is the PROCESS-- NOT THE FUEL. Compression ignition means diesel, no matter what fuel is being burned.



So, a twin-turbocharged V12 Compression ignition engine with twin fuel injectors per cylinder running on Methanol!



The mind DOES wander, doesn't it?



jlh
 
I agree with Hohn 100%. I also think that if people stop overlooking the little transmission builders... and really sat down and talked to them. A special converter like what would be needed isn't so far away.



That being said... . I don't know that Dave is the end all be all in converters. I just know that he now has a patented converter that is good on the LOW end up through the High end. Starts very tight and gets tighter. Now if someone talked to him... on his walk to work... he might just come up with the Higher RPM version. (that's where he came up with the idea and concept for the converter I run)



I know DTT, ATS and Suncoast are great units. Talk to them. Show them and tell them what you want. The stator will HAVE to be a custom never been used or seen unit. I've seen Daves and it's a wicked design. I don't know how someone could just think of this on their walk to work... I was also asked not to give any specifics on it other than what I can tell you in the truck.



I think the Drag application will need a higher stall but very stiff fluid coupling after that to acchieve what they are looking for. With the proper converter an engine that can rev like and SOB from 3-4000rpm will beat an engine that has more HP but isn't set-up this way. The higher RPM will allow a much better spool up time and get these trucks/engines out of the hole faster.



my . 02

Josh
 
Hohn,

Chimp461 reaps what he sows. He has made so many ignorant Diesel performance statements since he joined, that the things that might make sense are lost in the shuffle.

I don't forget what he has posted, and neither does the search feature.



Case in point. How many times did he INSIST that the Scheid rail would take 30 seconds to light? More than once, I can assure you.



Well, Benzt just nailed him, SIX SECONDS.

I'm waiting for Chimp to post, and admit he was wrong, but I doubt I'll see that.





We all know pulling is not the same as racing, BUT, that doesn't mean you scrap an engine that has amazing advantages, and try to turn it into something else. Example: An inline 6 Diesel, turn it into a gasser V-8.
 
Gimme a break here people.



SCHEIDS has the B series engine business wrapped up, anyone who doesnt think that is a fool.

Once they get their rail dialed in, they are going to be unbeatable.



Then what are people going to say?

"It doesn't work" ???



THE SAME PEOPLE SAID THEIR PULLING MOTOR WOULDN'T WORK 3 YEARS AGO!!! (And for the ignorant, its TOP DOG PERIOD!)



DEJAVU!



Yeah thats right, their engine was blowing up left and right about 3 years ago. All the EEP'ers said it was a joke and wouldnt work. And of course they were wasting their time. HMM... . this sounds like this situation has already happend.



For the johnny come lately's on TDR I would advise doing a search and looking up "Scheid" and "Pulling" threads from 3 years ago.





Most of the armchair quarterbacks that havent seen a Scheid Engine in action in person or from about 20 feet away dont even have a clue on how much power this thing has.

Their puller is now over 1500hp the 1400hp mark is old news now and has been relegated to their "other" "customer" trucks.



COMP, I don't doubt your racing and engine knowledge. But I think you will be corrected when Scheids sets a record (which I hope they do). If they dont I will be surprised and wrong.
 
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I have and will never say that Sheid's won't or can't build a drag racing engine. I think they, like Piers, have the greatist potential to build a great engine. I also think it's to bad Piers is quite a distance from Most of this hoopla!



I think the biggist secret will be in the torque converter and the turbo combinations. You do have to get those things to light quickly. As I recall at IRP, the light was green long before the Sheid car launched. Great run, don't get me wrong! BUT If there would have been a heads up race even with the Bentz team running a 10, and the Sheid car running an 8. 8... . with that much lag time at the tree, they just got beat.

The Bentz guys have the lag issue taken care of, and they have been working on the transmission/converter problems.



The other problem as I see it is this... . Traction! These engines produce so much torque, the Bentz car spun the tires after each shift! Granted it was an extremely hot day and I'm sure the track temp and tire temp gave a very greasy "hook-up" on the track. But, last year... again hot, but on their run in Muncie... I thought I heard the tires chirp when it shifted.



I think the right combinations will yeld a phenominal run for someone. Get Fletchers tuning ablities... and you too can make a blowfish move like a Great White!



Josh
 
They were having trouble with trans lock on the Scheid dragster at IRP and Eric was holding it with the wheel brakes - which isn't optimal by any means. That screws up everything on your launch. The car crept at the line on him because the brakes wouldn't hold. It was far from an optimal run. I can't wait for them to get the transmission dialed in and working right - it's gonna be awesome I'm sure!
 
Eric, I haven't talked to Dan about it but I honestly think you guys need to get away from the whole torque converter thing. I am very impressed with how Keatings crower/lenco system lets you have the ability to tune your initial engagement RPM and it lets you build rpm and of course the chargers light alot faster when the motor isn't trying to struggle against the TC to get up to the 36-3800 rpm window for the chargers to light? Of course if you quit having trouble with that darn trans brake it would make it alot easier to tune and match a TC for your needs too. I think one misconception that Greg has is that we are running a HUGE set of chargers, when in reality they are pretty closely matched to what he has been running on their own drag truck. I can go from idle to spooled (80-90psi) in about 3 seconds and be at "peak" within another . 5-. 75, because it will build rpm quickly on the line while the clutch doesn't load the motor much till it spools.
 
Back to TQ converter, has anyone doing this tried a Chance converter that you can put together differently depending on conditions?



Jim
 
The torque converter is nothing but a fluid variable gear ratio. This has the same affect as a clutch management system on a top fuel car. I run a bolt together COAN converter. The common misconception about running a maximum efferent converter is that you run it around peak torque, Diesel people should forget the word torque, and this is a major handicap, in the tuning and running of any diesel race truck, thinking like a puller.



This will start a fire storm, but Horse power is the only thing that moves a race car down the track. If you have hp you can make what ever torque you want by gearing. Examples if you have a 1000 hp at the flywheel you have the same, less parasitic loss at the tire. You have more or less torque depending on gearing, but the hp number remains the same.



I don’t know why I am even given up the way to run a race truck, but this is common knowledge in the comp world, you leave the line at maximum hp, and never look back, you would never want to pull the motor down to the area where it makes maximum torque, because you are giving up hp to do that, in addition you create tremendous cylinder pressure loads and spikes that result in kicking parts on the track.





On drag racing and spool time, Sleddie the 6 seconds was after completing staging, and that is forever, the average time on a real auto start tree is between . 50 to 1. 0 second to start. Do you want to put handicap signs on all diesels to let officials know that they will never hit the tree, unless the time is extended? Scott Benz told me that the Keating truck was dead on the tree ever time, if they can then every one should.



We have to live in the real world of drag racing. If you were to subject any other drag car to that kind of time up on the chip, the motor would not survive. I can hit the tree, Dustin can hit a tree, Keating can hit the tree, and everyone else should also. If a dragster wants nothing more then to sit on the line and spool for any amount over the allotted time, they will just have to be late, and in the world of drag racing a . 10 is a crushing amount of time. But some people don’t want a dragster , which is good to do exhibitions only.
 
This will start a fire storm, but Horse power is the only thing that moves a race car down the track. If you have hp you can make what ever torque you want by gearing. Examples if you have a 1000 hp at the flywheel you have the same, less parasitic loss at the tire. You have more or less torque depending on gearing, but the hp number remains the same.



LOL !!!

So how do you get horsepower?

You use a formula after measuring torque.



Most the guys I know who race, say to keep the motor between the torque peak and the HP peak.

Torque is the ability to do work.

Horse power is doing it over time.
 
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