Competition DIESEL DRAG RACING ENGINE vs. DIESEL PULLING ENGINES

[Sled Puller]

On drag racing and spool time, Sleddie the 6 seconds was after completing staging, and that is forever, .

DON"T CHANGE THE SUBJECT.



You said 30 seconds, its at 6 now almost out of the box. I'm sure it will be down farther, if the gasser trash parts will ever hold the power.



So far, everything you have predicted, has been dead wrong.

 

[JLackman]

DON"T CHANGE THE SUBJECT.



You said 30 seconds, its at 6 now almost out of the box. I'm sure it will be down farther, if the gasser trash parts will ever hold the power.



So far, everything you have predicted, has been dead wrong.

They must be learning something from Comp461's posts huh?

 

[sbentz]

Yes, the compromises:



Do you want the tuneup in the car to spool quick, and hit the tree (and the converter) quick, or build slow, overheating the converter, but making more power later in the run.



Do you want a low stall high efficiency converter, or a looser easy to rev and build boost on the line design with low efficiency? Or a lock up with the best of both?



Or do you run a clutch where you can't build a lot of boost on the line, but have the spinning inertia to shock load the driveline? And have no slippage downtrack.



Many choices, and they all have good application. Now mix that set of choices with all of the different tuneup combinations, and you will end up scratching your head or going fast. Just never when and where you can count on it.



We have learned a bit, but the lessons are quite painful and expensive. We learn a lot every time we run and in talking to a lot of people. You just have to seperate the facts from the opinions. What works for one may not for another, yet they swear it is the only way to do it.



Scheids are knocking on the door, and Keating impressed me. Comp, get that darned thing back out SOON and back the number up. Edge? My vote is that it is a sleeping dog. They will get it out and bite someone when no-one is looking. There are more coming, but if anyone thinks that they will hit the track with a big number right out of the box, look at the years it has taken all of us just to get where we are.



I think that we will see the ideal racing transmission soon. We have some minor changes to make on the one we are running (ATS 48RE with a brake and lockup) to get it perfect. Again, it sounds easy, but is not. We have had it in and out of the car a few times, but I must admit, we have not broken it yet. We will keep trying. Finding the right way to control it, and the ideal shift points is challenging.

 

[RacinDuallie]

There are several know methods to building insane power with these 6cyl. Cummins- But all the power in the planet don't mean spit if it's not transfered to the ground effectively without loss to slippage. That's my opinion, one of the golden keys to the kingdom relies on the ability to take that h. p. and transfer it to the ground.....

 

[Dl5treez]

Yes, the compromises:



Do you want the tuneup in the car to spool quick, and hit the tree (and the converter) quick, or build slow, overheating the converter, but making more power later in the run.



Do you want a low stall high efficiency converter, or a looser easy to rev and build boost on the line design with low efficiency? Or a lock up with the best of both?



Or do you run a clutch where you can't build a lot of boost on the line, but have the spinning inertia to shock load the driveline? And have no slippage downtrack.



Many choices, and they all have good application. Now mix that set of choices with all of the different tuneup combinations, and you will end up scratching your head or going fast. Just never when and where you can count on it.



We have learned a bit, but the lessons are quite painful and expensive. We learn a lot every time we run and in talking to a lot of people. You just have to seperate the facts from the opinions. What works for one may not for another, yet they swear it is the only way to do it.



Scheids are knocking on the door, and Keating impressed me. Comp, get that darned thing back out SOON and back the number up. Edge? My vote is that it is a sleeping dog. They will get it out and bite someone when no-one is looking. There are more coming, but if anyone thinks that they will hit the track with a big number right out of the box, look at the years it has taken all of us just to get where we are.



I think that we will see the ideal racing transmission soon. We have some minor changes to make on the one we are running (ATS 48RE with a brake and lockup) to get it perfect. Again, it sounds easy, but is not. We have had it in and out of the car a few times, but I must admit, we have not broken it yet. We will keep trying. Finding the right way to control it, and the ideal shift points is challenging.

If the definition of politically correct is being as honest as possible without stepping on any toes, Mr. Bentz has perfected the approach in the example above.



To me trash talk is a part of racing, you find it in every form of motorsports, and pretty much in general in every form of competition.



However, every once in awhile somebody comes along that fits the definition of an "ol-skool" gentleman competitor, and blows everyone out of the water with not only their on-track performance but their ability to outperform and at the same time be polite and courteous to not only their fans, but interested outside parties and fellow competitors as well.



Mr. Bentz, thank you for renewing my faith that some players in this game have the professionalism to maintain self control on internet forums. Perhaps you were born with it, perhaps being a company executive has bred it into you. Either way, it's a much appreciated distraction from the 3rd grade antics that are so prevelant around some of these places.



And now, in the words of a couple directors and co-whatevers of a diesel motorsports organization that will remain nameless, since I'm not a paying member my opinion don't count, so I'll shut up now.



Dan-

 

[Sled Puller]

Oh brother. Bentz steps out of the fray hes been playing in all winter, makes one good, serious post, and Dan wants to marry him.



Trouble is, its the wrong forum.

Come on Scott, the place for these nicey nice posts is in the other competition forum, where you set all those fires a few weeks ago?

LMAO!!!



And Dan, we value your opinion as much or more as COMPS, paying member or not, you have put in your time here.

 

[JoshPeters]

You said 30 seconds, its at 6 now almost out of the box. I'm sure it will be down farther, if the gasser trash parts will ever hold the power.

As everyone has said... . 6 seconds is an eternity at a drag tree.



Gasser trash parts... . after knowing what the sled pullers break, why would they even try to run that kind of part in the driveline of these rails?



Josh

 

[jwilliams3]

Probably because the parts these guys need do not exist yet.

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

I believe that you must not change the sport and allow long tree intervals , meaning a low time between completing staging and when the tree drops to allow a puller type motor to sit and spool its heart out , you must build a motor that can be raced in the real world of drag racing .

Still trying to make a diesel the same as a gasser. . ?





QUOTE TxDieselKid,

I think down the road there will be a day that diesel's catch gas in terms of running the same feild, but that day is years away. For now I say allow a longer staging time, only because the technology, and things that needed to be learned, have not been delt with yet, for most. It's really all just a big learning curve, and untill we have trucks that spool in 3 seconds like the big boys in the gasser world do, there needs to be some certain allowences made. QUOTE



I believe this is true, until the sport arrives to the point of making the diesel the same as a gasser at the line, some things will have to be allowed different. Also if you allow the pre-stage lights on the tree, use that time for the spool as they are doing now. Whats wrong with doing that?



As far as the pulling motors, why dont you order one up from Schieds and put it in that thing you call a truck and see what it will do? Probably wont be used to that much HP, but you will get used to it.

 

[JoshPeters]

I believe this is true, until the sport arrives to the point of making the diesel the same as a gasser at the line, some things will have to be allowed different. Also if you allow the pre-stage lights on the tree, use that time for the spool as they are doing now. Whats wrong with doing that?

The problem is... . So far the Sheid car is the only one that, as I have seen, Been unable to properly spool and run like a regular car! Comp's time slip shows a good reaction time, the Bentz car runs under the tree, so did the Keating truck. All VERY fast, but ALL made it under the light.



Josh

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Perhaps you missed my post above. The trans brake wasn't working properly on the Scheid car and Eric was having to use the wheel brakes to stage & spool the car. This changes a ton of things as the wheel brakes may/may not hold, etc. With the trans brake working properly there is no need to worry about that. Anyone who has done drag racing knows that you get a set routine from the time you roll through the bleech box until you shut down at the end. If you are dealing with equipment issues that completely change the burnout/stage routine it's going to drastically affect your performance. It's because of the trans brake issue that they had to shut the car down after the burnout and PUSH it back to the start line and then re-fire it. The Scheid car is VERY young in it's development cycle - it hit the track for the very first time late last fall and then was basically shut down for the winter because the tracks up here close for the winter. I think the Scheid team deserves props for putting the car in front of a huge crowd even when they were well aware that they may have problems. Then even though the trans brake wasn't working they were still willing to make a pass for the crowd although they knew it would be far from optimal. The "safe" thing to do would have been to keep it under wraps and do testing at private sessions until they had the setup nailed down - but then they would have gotten reamed for that too.

 

[JoshPeters]

Very true Steve... . I did forget about that post. More my point there was that people think that just cause we are running set of large chargers on a drag car/truck/rail that they need more time to light the chargers. My thoughts are... . that's the game we play. Here are the rules, run the light as is or don't run. If you can't get your chargers to light... . figure something else out! I think this sport is just getting going, as is the Sheid Rail car. How would the rest of the racing world look at us if we whine and cry that we need more time at the light. The phrase "Dumb Redneck" comes to mind. We all know that is not the case with any of the technology or building of these cars. Lets play the game by the rules, and stop whining about what they are.



Josh

 

[Sled Puller]

The problem is... . So far the Sheid car is the only one that, as I have seen, Been unable to properly spool and run like a regular car! Comp's time slip shows a good reaction time, the Bentz car runs under the tree, so did the Keating truck. All VERY fast, but ALL made it under the light.



Josh

That may be true(although with the number of adult beverages you consumed that weekend, I don't know whether to trust your observations or not!! )



Scheid is also running about twice the HP of those guys. And I have not heard them ask for extra time yet.



The point was, COMP insisted it would take them 30 seconds, for the last 6 months. It did not.

As soon as COMP acknowledges this fact, we can move on.



Lets also consider, COMPS years of exprience in drag racing, I can't take that away from him.

Seat time, is something that cannot be bought or computed.

 

[COMP461]

Still trying to make a diesel the same as a gasser. . ?

not the as a gasser , but the same as a drag racer !!!!!!

As far as the pulling motors, why don’t you order one up from Schieds and put it in that thing you call a truck and see what it will do? Probably wont be used to that much HP, but you will get used to it.

as to how much power I make or don’t make its irreverent if you can’t get it to run in a race .

The real reason that Eric could not get the Lenco drive to work is not because it will not hold the power . The same drive unit holds back the record holding Alcohol Funny, with makes around 3500 HP and 2500 torque , an is changing the funny car ranks now that every one has to have one. The real reason IMEO is that first Eric did a show stopper of a burn out , , its looks cool , and is impressive to people that don’t understand the reason for a burn out . this heated the trans fluid . second when he engaged the Transbrake and started to spool, this set a furnace ablaze in the torque converter which is absorbing all that energy and is not releasing it as motion in to the trans this means you are absorbing the total power of that engine at the time as heat . The trans fluid is done , and it boils , vaporizes and spills on the track . sure pulling motors make big power , but if you cant, get it to work, then it’s a moot point.



I don’t have a problem with the reliability of the drive line parts , and neither should any one else , a 900 or 1000 hp diesel doesn’t hit my axels any harder then a 900 to a 1000 hp Pro Stock Truck motor . one make hp at a lower RPM and hence the torque number are higher at the fly wheel, but the gearing is half in a diesel. . and the parts are designed for a 1400 hp Pro Stock motor .



All the ya ya about only Schieds , Enterprise and Piers being the only one that can make power is coming from people that don’t have dogs in those hunt, as they them selves don’t build anything , but want to cheerlead and associate them selves with some one else. I don’t even try to openly sell a motor . I have talked with and have great respect for Dan and the guys at both Enterprise and Piers. They have lead the way , and are forward thinkers ,and will eventually figure things out. About motors, my advantage over them is I understand drag racing as what it really is , Physics in motion . I have come from not even knowing a thing about a compression ignition engine 18 months ago, to building a 1000 hp motor that will live and conform it self to the sport of drag racing. It freely accelerate , and will get up on its chargers when needed.



I believe that a diesel is nothing more then a four stroke reciprocation internal combustion engine using the Otto cycle. Therefore the same principals I have used in the past to develop competition eliminator , and Pro Stock Truck motor programs work in this motor program. AIR FLOW , AIR FLOW , and a little more AIR FLOW . this is added in cam shaft design which I acquired for the best diesel cam guru John Russin at Buddha power. The stability of valve train and related components is essential to revving a motor up, and if you don’t do these you are lost . reciprocation weight , when it doesn’t compromise reliability is the next big push . There is a huge amount of accelerating hp there for the asking , a motor will rev gain better with a lighter rotation mass.



Whether you like it of not the math doesn’t lie . Sleddy don’t you have something you need to be pulling around the yard , because you cheerleading for the other guys is a like funny , have a original thought the next time you want to bash

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

second when he engaged the Transbrake and started to spool, this set a furnace ablaze in the torque converter

I'll say it one more time - the trans brake WAS NOT WORKING, Eric was using the wheel brakes to hold the car back.

 

[Sled Puller]

30 seconds does not =6.

ROTFLMAO!!



Say Comp, have you backed up that 9 second run recently? Ever? In front of people?



Oh, and how did Piers make your little list there?

 

[COMP461]

I'll say it one more time - the trans brake WAS NOT WORKING, Eric was using the wheel brakes to hold the car back.

thats because he smoked the brake out before hand , so he left from a idle, because a foot brake is only going to hold a small amount of power.



ok sleddie it only took 6 seconds to foot brake , still far from the needed . 5 or less.

 

[DavidTD]

The internet is a strange place.



Low ET at Bowling Green 2004 and 2005, Low et at Muncie 2004, IRP 2005, Low ET Scheids 2004, low ET Atlanta 2004 and no credit anywhere.



4 first place finishes out of 6 races (not a pass, but a race where you got to finish to win) and no mention.



Only Pro Street truck to make a 10 second pass this year... at BOTH events no doubt... again, no mention.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Nope, wrong again. The trans brake wasn't working from the get go. And he launched at 40 psi on the brakes btw. Why comment on stuff that you know nothing about? You weren't even at the track, nevermind being in the cockpit or on the crew. Speculating on what happened to someone else when you have NONE of the information is crazy.

 

[fest3er]

Perhaps you missed my post above. The trans brake wasn't working properly on the Scheid car and Eric was having to use the wheel brakes to stage & spool the car. ... .

But Steve, you're missing the point. This has all been done before. All Mr. Scheid needs to do is use a Powerglide trans and TC. Then Eric'll be running 7. 8's like there is no tomorrow. Oh, wait. Scott's not using the Powerglide any more; he's switched to ATS. OK, so Dan should use the ATS trans. Well, wait, that might not work either, since Smith grenaded the ATS trans he put behind one of Scheid's engines.



So what should Mr. Scheid do. ... Hmm. ... Should he switch to a clutch, like most of the top rail dragsters have? Well, no, because then Eric couldn't rev-gain and he would be lucky to even leave the line without all the necessary rev-gained HP. But why do those top dragsters with clutches run so fast then, if they can't rev-gain?



Ok, perhaps Dan should stick to building pulling engines that don't have to accelerate. Well, wait; that doesn't sound right either. Doesn't changing the velocity of a 48,000 pound object from 0 MPH to 40 MPH involve acceleration? And doesn't doing so within 200 feet require a significant amount of horsepower? Maybe not; I could be wrong. After all, it's been 29 years since I took the physics class in high school; I could be mis-remembering things. But no, it must be right; the forum experts have stated many times that HP is needed to move something from point 'A' to point 'B', and that the quicker you want to move it, the more HP you need. Oh, I think I see. The physical laws governing drag racing acceleration are unique; they don't apply to any other form of acceleration, and the physical laws governing other forms of acceleration don't apply to drag racing. I guess Newton and Einstein are both wrong.



Oo. I know! Mr. Scheid should stop denying that he is an abject failure as an engine builder and should hang his head in utter shame and slink away, and leave engine building to those who have been doing it for 20 years and more. Yeah! That's the answer! That's it!