Diesel Pickup Horsepower Race continues...

[rscurtis]

I don't visit any Chevy forums, but the few Ford forums I browse have revealed that they're not perfect, and I'm not talking about engine issues. Every vehicle today is made to a price point (unfortunately). I have an '83 Mercedes that was built the way a car was supposed to be built, right down to having grease fittings on the door hinges, and it cost $31,000 in 1983. Imagine what that same car would cost today, probably over 100K. My '03 Dodge was only a couple of grand more, it's twenty years newer and weighs twice as much, so you can imagine what was cut or shaved to make that possible.

 

[Wingate]

I really can't disagree, as I do believe it's a crap shoot with any of the Big 3 vehicles, and I've had junk from all three of them. As many folks on here say, "I bought a Cummins diesel, and it came wrapped in a Dodge truck". I do believe that, on average, the Cummins is demonstrably better. I'd also point out that the GM/Olds diesel fiasco was the 5. 7, not the 6. 2/6. 5.

oops... sorry about that... it WAS based off of the olds 350 block wasn't it.....



And I feel the same way. . I bought a Cummins, it came in a Dodge.

 

[JUeckert]

hhmm... before I post this... . let me change into my FRC's... (fire retardant clothing)

IMHO, none of the three have learned anything from the past 2+ years.

GM and DODGE did figure out that if they cry a little, big brother will cut them a check so they can go back to " business as usual". Ford STILL hasn't come off of their high horse, or admitted that the 6. 0 and 6. 4 was/is a parts departments dream and an owners nightmare. I KNOW there are dyed in the wool, blue oval guys in here that will come back with " I know a guy thats got 200K on his 6. 4 without issues"... problem is, that is NOT the norm, its the exception. I applaud Ford for attempting to do it all in-house and only time will tell if its a success, or as big of a flop as the 6. 2l GM/Oldsmobile was. . I hope its a raging success, but I will have to see to believe.

Once again, IMHO, Dodge is just as bad, if not worse... They don't have to worry with the pesky details of designing and manufacturing their own diesel engine, they just have the task of building a truck that will compliment the engine package... STILL waiting on THAT one. . The transmission is weak, the front suspension is a joke, and the interior is cheap. I know I know... the new trucks are better... are they??? Is it a better suspension package with a more robust unitized hub bearing... . or did DODGE just re-print the service manual with looser tolerances to get out of warranty claims?? Is "Death Wobble" a thing of the past?

GM. . well, I have 7 years with d-maxes so I think I can honestly say... its junk. . its a great engine if you run un-loaded and only pull a boat or camper every once awhile... I hear they do ok when chipped up and racing... Sorry, I didnt buy it to race. . When they are called on every day to pull hard... they fail. The interiors are cheap on them also...

Personally, for what we ALL pay for any of these pickups. . (Ford, GM, DOdge) the quality is completely SUB-STANDARD!!!. .

Quality from any of the three hasn't gotten better over the past several years. . its just that we as a society have gotten accustomed to "less that satisfactory" being ok. .

See what happens when I have a bad experience at a dealership!!!. hahahaha...

good post for the most part, but i cant agree with the 6. 0/6. 4 being a service depts dream. truth really be known, they hate seeing them come in, cause they are such a pain to work on on! for the most part the 6. 4 has had a good run, and i have seen very few issue's with it, really no more then i have seen for the 6. 7 cummins. To be quite honest i dont want any of the 3, which was why i jumped out and bought my 05 dodge, allthough i really didnt need it at the time. I figured from a reliability stand point it was a last chance deal. The truck itself is my best dodge yet, but it has had it's issues. I too applaude ford for produceing their on engine, they have produced some good ones in the past, and time will tell if this one is a winner or looser. As for gm, well if they take the notion they can produce a solid engine as well, the 6. 2's served well for what they were designed for, yet in it's latter form[6. 5] it fell short of the task it was intended to fill. In all honesty, the lowly little gm engine's have cost me less money to own then cummins engines. Still not quite convinced on the duramax though. .

 

[Wingate]

good post for the most part, but i cant agree with the 6. 0/6. 4 being a service depts dream. truth really be known, they hate seeing them come in, cause they are such a pain to work on on!

OUR local Ford dealership said the other day that they hated to see the 6. 4l go... that it was a parts department dream...

Before anybody asks... I was at the Ford dealsership geteting the oil changed on my wife's Grand Cherrokee due to the local Dodge dealership being completely INCOMPETENT to do the simplest of tasks... On a brighter note, they got all the lug-nuts, air cleaner lid, and drain plug tight!!!. .

 

[JUeckert]

I sure couldnt see them being a dream, unless it's just from the getting paid to do warranty work point of view. Too much clutter in the way, just to get to the actual issue. As for the local dodge dealer, i have had no issues with them fixing issue's on my truck, they did however scratch it during the last visit. My niece left their service dept about 2 months ago for another job, i remember her saying they lost some good help during the dealer shut down fiasco. They jumped ship for fear the dealership was on the list to get axed last year.

 

[Wingate]

I sure couldnt see them being a dream, unless it's just from the getting paid to do warranty work point of view. Too much clutter in the way, just to get to the actual issue. As for the local dodge dealer, i have had no issues with them fixing issue's on my truck, they did however scratch it during the last visit. My niece left their service dept about 2 months ago for another job, i remember her saying they lost some good help during the dealer shut down fiasco. They jumped ship for fear the dealership was on the list to get axed last year.

The parts guy was mainly referring to the amount of parts they sold for the 6. 0l/6. 4l... . not just over the counter, but to the service department also. Like I said, I REALLY hope Ford has the 6. 7 dialed in... If nothing else, it will raise the bar a little for the others.

I really think I was MORE than patient with the local Dodge house... but after an air filter lid that was left off for 4800 miles after they serviced my wifes Jeep, then front suspension bolts falling out from under my truck after they updated the front suspension, then they left the right rear wheel loose on my wifes Jeep after a tire rotation at the next service.....



On a lighter note... . the slab on my new shop was poured today... so in the VERY near future, I will be doing the P/M's on my vehicles myself... so if anything gets left loose, I can't blame anybody but myself.

Thanks a million to JUeckert... . for giving me names of reputable contractors in our little town... . It was some welcomed information and advice.

 

[SHobbs]

I don't care how much they produce. I have a large inline 6 with the low end grunt I like the dependability and mileage that neither the Ford nor the Chevy diesel can match. Not to mention I got the TDR in the glove box. My truck is 10 yrs old and currently above 250k and still purring. The best truck I have ever had and I would drive it anywhere anytime.



In my opinion Ford screwed the pooch as far as the diesel engine is concerned. There is an inline 6 from International that if I read correctly is only about 2-300 pounds more than the Cummins. They should have dropped the Powerstroke and went with it. Chevy at least with the Isuzu they have been on top of reliability issues and have made improvements.

 

[JUeckert]

Oh I TRIED TO BY-PASS THE CUSSING FILTER, better chk my suspension componets too! They did frontend recall work on my 05, May a year ago. Glad they did the recall, my frontend was starting to sag with only 40k on it! Another stunt they pulled besides the scratch incident, was one of the techs argued with me over the air filter i was useing. Mr tech tried to say i had the wrong filter in the truck, and it could create warranty issues, + it really needed changed [only had 4k on it]. I quickly informed him all the filters i use on that truck were fleetguard filters[i was starting to have fun with this], and changed on or before the mileage as par to severe duty useage. Oh but thats the wrong filter he claims. No sir, that filter brand is owned by the cummins engine company, why wouldnt it be approved for their own engines? He was stumped for words... btw; thanks for the kind words, need any more advise/help, just holler...

 

[JUeckert]

I don't care how much they produce. I have a large inline 6 with the low end grunt I like the dependability and mileage that neither the Ford nor the Chevy diesel can match. Not to mention I got the TDR in the glove box. My truck is 10 yrs old and currently above 250k and still purring. The best truck I have ever had and I would drive it anywhere anytime.



In my opinion Ford screwed the pooch as far as the diesel engine is concerned. There is an inline 6 from International that if I read correctly is only about 2-300 pounds more than the Cummins. They should have dropped the Powerstroke and went with it. Chevy at least with the Isuzu they have been on top of reliability issues and have made improvements.

The smallest inline that international has produce for many years now, is the dt 466 engine. This engine weighs 1400+lbs dry, no starter and no flywheel. It would be impossible to put this engine in any light pickup with out a dog house in the cab. Even medium dutys require a dog house with this one, due to the length, as did the 6. 6 and 7. 8 litre engines ford produced themselves. The only inline engine in recent years that international produced that would fit, was the dt360 [5. 9 litre]. They were in production from 87' to 93'...

 

[Wingate]

Oh I TRIED TO BY-PASS THE CUSSING FILTER, better chk my suspension componets too! They did frontend recall work on my 05, May a year ago. Glad they did the recall, my frontend was starting to sag with only 40k on it! Another stunt they pulled besides the scratch incident, was one of the techs argued with me over the air filter i was useing. Mr tech tried to say i had the wrong filter in the truck, and it could create warranty issues, + it really needed changed [only had 4k on it]. I quickly informed him all the filters i use on that truck were fleetguard filters[i was starting to have fun with this], and changed on or before the mileage as par to severe duty useage. Oh but thats the wrong filter he claims. No sir, that filter brand is owned by the cummins engine company, why wouldnt it be approved for their own engines? He was stumped for words... btw; thanks for the kind words, need any more advise/help, just holler...

Yeah. . must have been the same tech. that had the service advisor call me and say that I needed a "battery maintenance service" and a new air filter.

I asked that they explain exactly what was involved in a "battery maintenance service" on maintenance free batteries?????? I also asked if they actually pulled the filter out and inspected it or just looked at the indicator, mainly due to the fact that the filter was only about 3 days old and had about 25 miles on it???

Guess since I didnt let him screw me on a filter and battery maintenance, he decided to leave the bolts loose on my suspension pieces... .

They STILL charged me $75. 00 that day for warranty work and an oil, oil filter, and fuel filter change... . and I supplied all the filter and oil!!!!!

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

On the V8 vs I6 discussion- V8 diesels can make a lot of torque, torque is a direct relationship between the stroke, rod angle and cylinder pressure. . . but it takes a lot of cylinder pressure for a V8 to make a lot of torque. Since it takes more cylinder pressure on a short stroke engine to match the torque of a long-stroke inline 6 you can see a V8 would be stressed more to create the same amount of torque.

But then the V8 can rev and make the horsepower which is what gets work done and is it torque or horsepower that matters yadda yadda yoo. . . you know how it goes. Higher RPM means more valvetrain friction, pumping inefficiencies, wider RPM gap between idle and towable RPM, harder to optimize turbo efficiency over a wide RPM range, etc.

For comparison
Cummins 6. 7L bore 4. 21" stroke 4. 88" =408 cubic inches
Duramax 6. 6L bore 4. 06" stroke 3. 90" =403 cubic inches
Scorpion 6. 6L bore 3. 90" stroke 4. 25" =406 cubic inches

To Ford's credit they have a considerably longer stroke than the Duramax.

 

[Grizzly]

I really can't disagree, as I do believe it's a crap shoot with any of the Big 3 vehicles, and I've had junk from all three of them. As many folks on here say, "I bought a Cummins diesel, and it came wrapped in a Dodge truck". I do believe that, on average, the Cummins is demonstrably better. I'd also point out that the GM/Olds diesel fiasco was the 5. 7, not the 6. 2/6. 5.

I completely disagree with that statement. I purchased two Dodge trucks, both equipped with a Cummins diesel. Both the Dodge trucks and the Cummins diesel engines have been great. My 95, in the 10 years I owned it, was never in the shop for anything, except a wheel alignment. So far the 05 has not been in the shop either. I believe that Dodge makes a great truck and Cummins makes a great engine. It's the best of both worlds.



Before the 95 Dodge I had an F250 gasser. I believe I worked on it every weekend under my shade tree. That was the worst damn vehicle I ever had.

 

[CUMMINZ]

My gut feeling is that this time Ford has a winner in their new engine. :-laf

 

[Grizzly]

My gut feeling is that this time Ford has a winner in their new engine. :-laf

I would't hold my breath on that!

 

[Simplysmn]

I for 1 would not gamble on that being true but time will tell if they got it right .

 

[TFucili]

I completely disagree with that statement. I purchased two Dodge trucks, both equipped with a Cummins diesel. Both the Dodge trucks and the Cummins diesel engines have been great. My 95, in the 10 years I owned it, was never in the shop for anything, except a wheel alignment. So far the 05 has not been in the shop either. I believe that Dodge makes a great truck and Cummins makes a great engine. It's the best of both worlds.



Before the 95 Dodge I had an F250 gasser. I believe I worked on it every weekend under my shade tree. That was the worst damn vehicle I ever had.

You are free to disagree, this is America! My '05 has been the best pickup I've owned in some time, but ball joints, wheel bearings and front end issues are all too common. I have owned all three brands, all properly maintained, and stand by my statement.

 

[HBarlow]

For those of you who apparently don't like your Dodges much, why do you own one?

 

[AClayton]

For those of you who apparently don't like your Dodges much, why do you own one?

Because the Dodge has the Cummins... ... ... I would pick any truck that had the Cummins. As you are aware,I have had all the infamous Dodge failures that are commonly discussed on the forums. And those of us who follow your posts and remember every single detail about problems that you have posted about your past two vehicles... . the 01' and 06',know that you yourself have experienced many of the same issues. Both of your trucks were 2 wheel drive so you did not have the same problems with the front-end that we all do. Your 01' had a VP44 issue and APPS problems and again,your truck was not plaqued by the somewhat lackluster automatic transmission... the 47E. The 06' had the much better 48E but was replaced early in its life with a DTT,if memory serves. However,you had to replace the very expensive injectors on the 06'. Now I realize that you're going to counter me by stating the VP on your 01' was mis-diagnosed and replaced unnecesarily but I know you are a very smart man. I think you have read and witnessed enough here on TDR to understand that it was only a matter of time before it failed... . either by a lift pump failure or other means. Can't recall how many lift pumps you said you replaced but I do remember more than one! All it takes is one and the VP is wounded!



I am going to accept a challenge that you placed on me a couple of years ago... . I am purchasing a 5th wheel Toyhauler very soon and the combined weight of my truck and this trailer are going to be very close to the GCWR of my MH towing a car. I'm confident that my Cummins will outperform the MH in performance and mileage. I'm curious to see if the DODGE part of the equation will outperform the MH chassis part..... I truly do not have confidence in that part of this scenerio. We will see!



Just so we are on the same page... ... I love my truck and have upgraded my trucks failures with all the parts and available information that is commonly referred to here on TDR. I have certainly payed my fair share into this truck to make it a reliable and stout pulling machine. Much more so than any other truck I have ever owned. Again,mostly Dodge related... ...



I have modded my truck,as I am very much aware that you detest 'magic boxes',and will go on to say that most of my mods are purely mechanical upgrades and were installed for towing prowess only. I have a Bully Dog Module but the timing makes my idle so choppy,I refuse to use it..... short of the most brutal of hills.



I am not a Dodge fan because this truck has made me that way. I am a Cummins fan and that influences my decision to keep this truck no matter what the Dodge part of the equation dishes out. I would like to think that many Cummins enthusiasts would purchase ANY truck that came equipped with the 5. 9L,whether it was a Ford,Chevy,Toyota or Dodge! IMHO!



Alan

 

[TFucili]

For those of you who apparently don't like your Dodges much, why do you own one?

Why does stating factual, honest experience irk you so, Harvey? I didn't say I hate my truck, but I am annoyed at the issues I have had at such low miles on a truck that is supposed to be "Heavy Duty". It says so right on the tailgate, after all. I've owned a whole lot of trucks between business and personal use, and know how to use them. I said that it is one of the best trucks I have owned, BUT it is a long damn ways from perfect. I am sorry that you take that as a personal offense, since you have had the best of luck with yours. I've owned all three brands, and they all have issues. It is the Cummins that makes the difference for me.

 

[HBarlow]

Because the Dodge has the Cummins... ... ... I would pick any truck that had the Cummins. As you are aware,I have had all the infamous Dodge failures that are commonly discussed on the forums. And those of us who follow your posts and remember every single detail about problems that you have posted about your past two vehicles... . the 01' and 06',know that you yourself have experienced many of the same issues. Both of your trucks were 2 wheel drive so you did not have the same problems with the front-end that we all do. Your 01' had a VP44 issue and APPS problems and again,your truck was not plaqued by the somewhat lackluster automatic transmission... the 47E. The 06' had the much better 48E but was replaced early in its life with a DTT,if memory serves. However,you had to replace the very expensive injectors on the 06'. Now I realize that you're going to counter me by stating the VP on your 01' was mis-diagnosed and replaced unnecesarily but I know you are a very smart man. I think you have read and witnessed enough here on TDR to understand that it was only a matter of time before it failed... . either by a lift pump failure or other means. Can't recall how many lift pumps you said you replaced but I do remember more than one! All it takes is one and the VP is wounded!

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .....

Just so we are on the same page... ... I love my truck and have upgraded my trucks failures with all the parts and available information that is commonly referred to here on TDR. I have certainly payed my fair share into this truck to make it a reliable and stout pulling machine. Much more so than any other truck I have ever owned. Again,mostly Dodge related... ...

I have modded my truck,as I am very much aware that you detest 'magic boxes',and will go on to say that most of my mods are purely mechanical upgrades and were installed for towing prowess only. I have a Bully Dog Module but the timing makes my idle so choppy,I refuse to use it..... short of the most brutal of hills.

I am not a Dodge fan because this truck has made me that way. I am a Cummins fan and that influences my decision to keep this truck no matter what the Dodge part of the equation dishes out. I would like to think that many Cummins enthusiasts would purchase ANY truck that came equipped with the 5. 9L,whether it was a Ford,Chevy,Toyota or Dodge! IMHO!

Alan

Alan,

Your memory of my truck failure experiences is fairly accurate but not entirely. I did replace a VP-44 with a Cummins reman pump as a result of a misdiagnosed problem when my '01 had a little over 100k miles. The truck now has 350k miles on the odometer which means the reman VP-44 has provided around 250k miles of reliable performance. I don't see anything to complain about. The truck had Bosch RV275hp injectors installed by Joe Donnelly when it was very young but NEVER had a black box that altered timing or fueling. I wonder if THAT is the reason my luck with Dodges has been better than others?

The OEM transfer pump failed one afternoon when the truck had 60k miles on it and I was a block or two from the local dealer when it stumbled on acceleration in third or fourth gear. I pulled straight into the dealer's service drive and the pump was replaced under warranty. I never experienced another failure. At my insistence, my former Dodge mechanic friend reluctantly replaced the second pump somewhere under 200k miles because I was running hard, transporting trailers, and didn't want to chance a failure on the road. The maintenance log is still in the truck although I haven't looked at it in years. I don't think another pump was ever replaced. I did have a flow test done once or twice. I purchased and carried a third pump but it has never been installed. About two months ago I persuaded my son-in-law and daughter to allow my mechanic buddy to perform a flow test on the very "experienced" pump that he had installed for me, probably in '04. He pronounced it still good. The pump I purchased years ago is still in the original Cummins box on a shelf. The old Dodge is only used as a spare vehicle and spends most of its time parked now enjoying a well deserved retirement.

I did replace about six APPS modules . . . about every 45,000 miles due to failure! APPS modules were definitely a very weak and disappointing Dodge component on my '01 but not all 24 valve trucks have had as many failures. I have always believed there was something about my truck that made my experience worse than most. It may have been due to using a Jacobs exhaust brake from day one. Using the eb caused me to open then close the "throttle" a lot to control deceleration. When I was transporting I carried a spare APPS most of the time and could change one in ten minutes. Twice when I failed to carry one I limped it into dealers to buy one. Another time it failed on I-5 north of Seattle. I pulled off into an abandoned gas station in a small town and called a local dealer. Their parts delivery truck delivered an APPS to me where I was parked. Because it was a manual six speed, I was never stranded on the road. Other than repeated APPS failures my '01 was (and still is) a very reliable truck.

You are completely mistaken about injectors in my '06 Dodge. I replaced an FCA but NEVER an injector. All injectors were original when I sold the truck at 230k miles. I worried about injectors when it had 200+k miles on the odometer, in part because of what I read on TDR. I took it to a dealer and had a engine diagnostic test performed by a trained and skilled Cummins tech at around 210k miles. The diagnostic determined that all injectors were performing within specs. It always ran strong and got good fuel mileage.

I did have a full DTT built for the '06 but it proved unnecessary. The tailshaft bushing slipped out of place (it was pressed in) at 135k miles while I was working on the west coast. That caused the tailshaft seal to fail and it began dumping ATF out of the tailshaft. I had a high-paying load hooked up to pull from Oxnard, CA somewhere back east so I filled it up with ATF, purchased a few extra quarts, and headed east. It leaked ATF so badly that I had to stop and add three or four quarts to limp it, barely, up the hill into Flagstaff. I surrendered my load to another driver and had a local dealer install a new tailshaft seal and limped it home to Texas.

I assumed (incorrectly) that I had damaged internal parts and the torque converter because it ran low on ATF with a heavy trailer behind. I took it to a skilled automatic transmission rebuilder and authorized DTT installer and had a full DTT rebuild. When the transmission was disassembled it was fine. All it really needed was a new tailshaft bushing and seal. At the time, summer of 2007, I was making lots of money transporting and was planning to continue for another couple of years so I spent $6400 for a full DTT. Not long after the DTT rebuild fuel prices began rising dramatically, RV sales began slowing, and I realized I was tired and becoming burned out with transporting. At the end of October 2007 I had run 400,000 miles in two years and nine months, had survived too many trips and too many mountain passes on snow and ice, the industry was slowing, and I expected it was going to tank (it did) so I "retired. " I think my '06 was an extremely reliable truck also, especially when I consider how many of those 230k miles in one year and nine months were towing miles, many of them in excess of Dodge's specified GCWR.

Complaints about Dodge trucks that are less than perfect, and usually posted over a long list of modifications, frequently cause me to post a strong defense of my three Dodge trucks. I tend to remember the strengths and advantages of Dodges, not the minor imperfections.

You were correct, my trucks have all been 2wds although my currrent C&C uses a 4wd front end except for driveshaft, differential, and transfer case. I'm not a fan of 4wd. My trucks have not used huge oversized wheels and tires or been pounded over backroads and trails.

I'm a defender of Dodge trucks because I have enjoyed outstanding service from the three I've owned. Other than an overpriced automatic transmission modified rebuild (my bad decision) my cost of ownership of three Dodges used for heavy highway towing has been extremely low and I have NEVER experienced a breakdown that left me stranded.

I understand that a truck is a mechanical device made my men and it will wear out. Driving style, service application, maintenance methods, and the presence or absence of modifications make big differences in the experiences we have with our trucks.

I am also a Dodge defender because I transported alongside lots of Furd and GM owners. I heard their comments and heard about their truck failures from other transporters. I knew of many Furd owners back in '05 and '06 who were financially ruined by Furd 6. 0s and talked to a few GM owners who compared their experiences to mine and traded for Dodges. All but a very small number of old transporters who stayed in the industry owned and used Dodges. They gave up their former brand loyalty to GMs and Furds because they learned. I did know a couple of them who put lots of miles on Furd 7. 3s, partly because they owned one when they started and couldn't afford another truck. I never ran across or heard of a GM with more than about 300k miles. I road on one belonging to a fellow transporter once. It was used up at 300k.

We each make our own choices. I will only spend my money on Dodges with Cummins engines. I have owned lots of Chevy and Furd trucks before I bought my first Dodge in '01.