Dirty oil anyone?

[john hyduck]

I have a 06 with 1500 miles no it. I changed the oil at 500 miles because of a cold start tap and the oil was coal black. I hope it is only because of new engin brake in because it is not good. lots of soot carbon what ever. I will be calling the dealer if it dosent change.

 

[amsoilman]

I have had the Amsoil Bypass filter in use since 17,000 miles, when I first started using Amsoil. The oil has remained black to this day. I have recently changed over from Amsoil to Chevron 400. Not that the Chevron 400 is better, but it is cheaper, and I could not make myself keep running the engine with oil as black as paint and not changing it atleast every 6,000 miles.

Perhaps if you had done an oil analysis, chances are your oil would have still been servicable. Just because the oil is black, does not mean it is dirty!



Heck, just a few short years ago, one could change oil in a Diesel engine, start it up, and within 5-10 minutes it was the color of coal!



The black that you see is soot, and your bypass unit will remove most of the soot particles. IT is only after the soot particles aglomerate (bond to each other) and become large enough to do damage that does the harm to an engine. 3. 0 %/wt is the number that comes to mind. My last analysis as stated above only had 0. 2 % with 45,000 miles on the oil at that time!



THE OIL WAS BLACK!



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[AMassaro]

I have two bypass systems on my truck. The first is an Oilguard which supposedly filters down to 1 micron. The second is a Motorguard (tp) filter which is sub-micron. My oil turns black as soon as I pour it into the engine. As far as I've researched, soot is in the . 01micron range, which there are NO filters capable of handling. As long as it doesn't clump, which a good additive package will take care of, we should not have any problems... JMO

 

[macdaddy]

I Agree

I have had the Amsoil Bypass filter in use since 17,000 miles, when I first started using Amsoil. The oil has remained black to this day. I have recently changed over from Amsoil to Chevron 400. Not that the Chevron 400 is better, but it is cheaper, and I could not make myself keep running the engine with oil as black as paint and not changing it atleast every 6,000 miles.

Tim



I agree totally. Due to the soot contamination running Synthetics all the time make it a moot point and only increases operating costs.



However when I go on my long hauls during the summer towing 10K (usually 5K plus) I run synthetic due to the pounding the oil takes while towing.



I then switch back to Delo 400 and fleetgard filters the rest of the time. I have been doing this since 99 with good results.



Running synthetics all the time is completely unnecessary.



No flame suits required.



Mac

 

[DPKetchum]

With me a few extra bucks of operating cost is a moot point with the COST of everthing else a little more for oil is not a factor in my book. My truck is not used much but its ALWAYS pulling for the most part when used. I drive it less then 11k a year so far. I use Amsoil syn 15w40 and change filter at 6 months and oil and filter ONCE a year. Old truck was same deal for 7 years or so.

 

[amsoilman]

The benefits of synthetic lubes are many, as I continually reiterate, and undisputed in the oil industry. Superior wear protection, increased horsepower, cooler running engines, increased fuel economy, reduced deposits, reduced oil consumption, resistance to oxidation and breakdown, easier winter starts, and a True synthetic (PAO or Diester) base, will handle soot (reduce the soot particles from aglomrating) much better as well - they all add up to a better running, longer lasting vehicle.



Synthetic oils are frequently made from higly refined petroleum base stocks (VHVI and XHVI hydrocracked oils). So, the fully synthetic or 100% synthetic oils (PAO or Diester base)are very rare. In fact, most of the synthetic oils are petroleum based (mineral) oils, thanks to a lawsuit brought on by Mobil against Castrol.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[blacksheep4x4]

It was specifically made to filter out the soot while being used in thier bypass filter system.

 

[archer2500]

I have had my oil tested at Blackstone myself, every oil change or filter change and I have gone as far as 20,000 on Valnoline Blue and they said all was well. I think that the 3rd gens just make dirtier looking oil.

 

[amsoilman]

Not sure about filtering out soot. Those NEW filters are a 15 micron. Soot particles are a lot smaller then that I believe. Please correct if I'm wrong.

Blacksheep 4X4 is speaking of the By-Pass oil filter element, and not the Donaldson. The By-pass element is 98. 7% efficient@2 Micron, the Donaldson "Full-Flow" is 98. 7% efficient@ 15 Micron.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Signal73]

mine is black at 900 miles. My 12V gets black within 100

 

[amsoilman]

Here ya go! This oil is "Black", but is it dirty? Look at the results.



http://www.1gr8oil.com/cleanoil.htm

 

[brods]

Nice video, though I don't know what it proves. One problem we have here is the definition of clean and dirty. To understand the logic here, "clean" oil includes oils loaded with sub micron soot that is in suspension while "dirty" oil is oil with particulate in the 2 micron and up range?

Soot particles dispersed in lube oil are extremely small-about the size of a human virus

(0. 03 micron). The only proven filtration method to remove soot at a rate that maintains

soot content levels in oil is high-speed centrifugal separation where centrifuge performance

is further enhanced by cone stacks or similar technology. Passive filtration, including depth

bypass filters, will remove some soot as a result of removing agglomerated soot. However, the

soot level is generally not controlled and continues to increase becoming a major contributor to

increased oil viscosity and engine wear. This same agglomerated soot, along with sludge

(made up of resins and combustion by-products), is what the bypass filter is designed to

capture and will eventually plug the bypass filter when left in service beyond a proper service

interval.

Ok, what about the newer engines 600, 610 and the 07's with even tighter emissions that have even higher levels of soot loading? At the very least, read the abstract and introduction sections in this paper. http://www.luberfiner.com/products/docs/2004-01-3014v001.pdf



You will see the current methods to reduce NOx emissions produce more soot loading. It also says that soot is chemically active! Chemically active??? So how does oil handle this crap for extended periods if the soot is not removed? Black oil means soot! Please explain!



Ultimately which is better:



1. Running an oil saturated to capacity with soot for extended periods, using bypass filtration to hopefully remove any agglomerated soot?



2. Dump the oil at regular intervals to remove the soot and particulate from the system and start fresh.



3. Dump the oil at regular intervals to remove the soot from the system and use bypass filtration to control the concentration of 2 micron and larger particulate between changes?



I guess the answers will depend on how quickly new oil reaches the saturation point and can no longer keep any more soot in suspension.



BTW What are the risks of pushing an oil too far in these newer engines?

 

[steved]

3. Dump the oil at regular intervals to remove the soot from the system and use bypass filtration to control the concentration of 2 micron and larger particulate between changes?



BTW What are the risks of pushing an oil too far in these newer engines?

I'm sorta using #3... I extended my dino oil changes out to 10k, but will be dumping them on a regular basis... still under the 15k oil chage recommended by DC...



I would think the effects of pushing oil too far would be the same as before... nothing has really changed in that part of the engine...



steved

 

[amsoilman]

Nice video, though I don't know what it proves. One problem we have here is the definition of clean and dirty. To understand the logic here, "clean" oil includes oils loaded with sub micron soot that is in suspension while "dirty" oil is oil with particulate in the 2 micron and up range?

Not trying to "Prove" anything. Just trying to show that "Black" oil is not necessarily "Dirty".



My last analysis with 45,300 on the oil showed 0. 20 SOOT. That certainly shows there is not alot of aglomeration of soot particles. As I recall, the figure of 3. 0 Soot is when you would have something to worry about.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[steved]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AMSO...015QQitemZ250009999505QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW



Here is an auction for an older Amsoil filterhead and BE-90 filter... this is exactly what I used to "make" my bypass... it already has the restrictive orifice in it... just drill it out to 1/16" and you got the recommended flow of the eAbp filters (about a quart a minute)



Just in case someone was looking for one of these... oh, and the newer eAbp series filters fit these heads too...



steved

 

[Speedo]

If your oil doesn't turn black where is the soot going? Using a different oil that doesn't turn black doesn't change the amount of soot that the engine is producing. Newer oils were made to handle the soot levels caused by compliant engines.



Gus

 

[brods]

Amsoilman, while you may be able to run Amsoil in your truck for a million miles without a problem, that does not automatically mean it will work the same on the newer engines. It is likely your 03 produces much less soot than the 04. 5s and up. That the oil manufacturers had to come up with a new oil formulation just for these new sooty engines, tells us there is something very different about how they effect the engine oil. Even the Amsoil literature it says to stick with the OEM drain intervals unless you do an oil analysis.



It seems like there is a contradiction here and it would be nice to understand what is really going on.



So does Amsoil have hard data to support running extended oil drain intervals on EGR and low emissions diesels? Can they explain how the bypass filter can remove the submicron soot in the oil when the the oil is designed to keep the soot in suspension and prevent it from agglomerating into particles large enough to be filtered out?

 

[vinconco]

The factory recommended drain interval for the 06 is 7500 miles for severe service and 15,000 miles for regular service.



My 98 12V (which kept the oil looking clean for several thousand miles even with 200,000 miles on the ticker) has a factory recommended drain interval of 3000 miles for severe and 6000 miles for regular service.



Now if the new engines produce more soot than the old engines then why is the factory recommended drain intervals so different?



98 oil spec CF-4/SH

06 oil spec CI-4/SM



Anybody know what the differences in these specs are?

 

[nickleinonen]

98 oil spec CF-4/SH

06 oil spec CI-4/SM

i'd ignore the sh and sm, as those are spark ignition engines [gasoline] lube oil specs.



there isn't all that much difference in the base oil between cf and ci, but the additive packages are a little different. no cf is not avalable anymore. it has been superceeded by ci [soon to be replaced by CJ/CJ+4] the engines are changing for emissions, the newer oils for the emisions engines need to be able to withstand the emission controls [hotter running engines, more soot from retarted timing and egr systems] and still maintain the extended drains. . some oils didn't really change at all, they just retested them according to the new standards and when passed, they could relabel a CH to CI with nothing more than a updated test [oil being identical to each other]

 

[WNowlan]

The oils for our trucks (CI-4 Plus) will perform at the drain intervals recommended with out a problem. They can handle the soot. The testing is done with much higher levels of soot than we will see in a typical oil change.



Now the question really is Synthetic versus Dino?



In order to gain the benefits of fuel economy you must reduce the viscosity of the oil to a 5W-40 or 5W30. Amsoil does not have a licensed product for this(see below).



A PAO sythetic molecule is great at high temp. However, We can make the Group III perform at these levels. These are the Oils Wayne talks bad about. We can do this at a cost to you the consumer at whole lot less and still get the extended drains.



I am no longer working for a particluar brand; In fact, I do not work in the industry at all. I did spend over 20 years in the selling oil to the HD industry.



I would not buy Amsoil because of the cost. It is way over priced for what you get.



We all spend way to much money on our trucks making mods. Save the money on by-pass filters and use a good quality oil and be done with it. Don't waste your money on a 15W40 synthetic



I use a product made by CITGO. It is called SynDurance 5W40. It is made with 40% PAO and 60% Group III. It is a full synthetic that will meet the new specs when released in September. It cost around $15 for a gallon. I change it every 10,000 miles because it is cheap. They do offer free oil analysis when you buy it. My test results say I can keep going! CITGO has customers going over 90,000 on an oil change.



Mobil and Shell make great products as well. Never been a fan of Chevron but the new Delo 400 is a good product.



It is expensive to license a product with API. AMSOIL makes a whole lot of money, you would think they could afford to have all of their products licensed.





http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayLicenseInfo.asp?LicenseNo=0995

License No Company Name

0995 AMSOIL INC





Brand Name SAE Viscosity Grade Service Category Current Expiration Date

PCO 15W-40 CI-4/SL** August 8, 2006

XL 10W-30 SM/CF* August 8, 2006

XL 10W-40 SM/CF August 8, 2006

XL 5W-20 SM/CF* August 8, 2006

XL 5W-30 SM/CF* August 8, 2006





* Energy Conserving



** CI-4 PLUS