Dissatisfied Ford owner

[HBarlow]

I doubt that the solution to Ford's problem is as simple as calling Cummins in Columbus on the telephone and ordering a few thousand ISBs in crates.



Dodge may have contract clauses with Cummins that prevent Cummins from selling engines to Ford for use in Super Duty pickups, a direct competitor to Dodge Rams; Ford probably has long term contracts with Navistar to fund the R&D necessary to produce the 6. 0 engine; and probably also has agreements to purchase a specified minimum number of 6. 0 engines for years into the future.



Ford trucks are probably designed around the V8 diesel and an inline 6 like the Cummins ISB may not fit without major reengineering ... ... not to mention the major engineering and testing effort that would be required to make the Ford Super Duty truck platform compatible with the Cummins ISB. I wonder if Ford's new five speed automatic is capable of handling the massive torque output of the mighty Cummins that comes on like a light bulb when the switch is flipped.



I don't doubt that Ford owns many shares of Cummins stock; any individual or company can buy shares of stock in any other publicly traded company. However, I do doubt that Ford owns enough Cummins stock to make policy.



From what many have written, the Navistar 6. 0 works fine in Navistar trucks. Apparently the problems are isolated to the Ford version which was "turned up" to provide increased horsepower and torque to meet Ford's requirements.



My guess is Ford is stuck with a long term relationship with Navistar and will have to do whatever is required to work through the first year disaster that we are reading and hearing about. I wish them luck. Ford builds good trucks but may not be equipping them with good engines right now.



Harvey

 

[RustyJC]

Ford Does NOT Own Cummins

Man, isn't this on the FAQ's somewhere?? Would you believe Cummins over your brother-in-law? Check THIS out. Some urban legends are harder to kill than crabgrass.



Rusty

 

[Bug Out]

More 6.0 woes from the ford board. Lota cash lost...

Member



Member # 28888

Reged: 01/24/03

Posts: 213

Loc: Oregon

Re: Who can you believe on the issues with the new 6. 0L new

#1256892 - 06/13/03 04:53 PM

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Well Ken I'm an old-timer and we've had every single year made in the Ford diesel. Some years a couple. Never have they come out and had so many problems as what we are seeing around here. I would not recommend to anyone that they buy one right now. The guys I know are not city dudes who don't know how a diesel should perform. These are guys just like myself that use these trucks and use them hard. We know when they run right and when they don't. My new one has been to the shop so many times now I can't even tell you how many with most of the problems mentioned. I'd certainly wait and see what happens. I was never afraid of a first year ford but this one has really let us down.



--------------------

1999 crewcab xlt 4x4 powerstroke dually

1995 supercab xlt 4x4 powerstroke dually

2003 king ranch lariat, crewcab, green and tan, auto, 6. 0l, 3. 73, ESOF, 6 disc cd, adj. pedals, dually



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nitroman

Member



Member # 32652

Reged: 06/13/03

Posts: 3

Re: Who can you believe on the issues with the new 6. 0L new

#1256895 - 06/13/03 04:54 PM

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Ford motor company is taking some extreme steps to keep from buying back any more of these 6. 0L vehicles... . Special hotlines, special call in centers, rental vehicles while vehicle is in the shop, free oil changes, tech hotline calling dealers to see how they can help satisfy customers, special broadcasts on their Fordstar network, roundtable discussions... ... etc.

A service advisor deals with customer problems... . a saleman takes your money for something that you WANT to purchase... . . . regardless, Ford is gearing up to address the 6. 0L problems which are of great concern to them...



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MORPWRR

Member



Member # 7090

Reged: 06/08/00

Posts: 369

Loc: Chula Vista, CA USA

Re: Who can you believe on the issues with the new 6. 0L new

#1256915 - 06/13/03 05:11 PM

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That is why I am curious to hear from the recent build guys to see how many of the problems have been fixed. The service writer said that 90% of the problems are fixed. If I get one, I will order an 04 to take delivery this fall. One would think after building a couple hundred thousand of these, they would have the bugs worked out.



Oh, and just to make it perfectly clear. I really feel for you guys that are having lots of problems. I remember in the 80's when my family got a new Nissan car and it was the experience from Hades! 3 engines by the time the car had 16,000 miles on it. I don't think they had lemon laws in Nebraska then!

 

[Pit Bull]

When these 6. 0's were first coming out a Ford member stated on this Ford web site that he knew the guy that helped develop the new injection system and that it was real high tech and that it would eliminate the injection problems they had been having with the 7. 3's with the cackle. Looks like this guy really fixed it :-laf By the way isn't the definition of "crazy" doing the same thing that does not work over and over again. Starting to sound like CTD owners with our lift pumps and the Ford guys with their 6. 0's

 

[Blue2002]

I looked all over Cummins website, but could not find any recent reports indicating that Ford still owns any shares in Cummins. I don't believe there are any recent reports on the Web that will show Ford still has any significant stake in Cummins. Can anyone show me a URL that will link directly to a page that indicates Ford still owns any significant shares?



I did find a link that indicates Ford is using light duty automotive engines made by Cummins in Brazil. Also indicates that Cummins is working in a joint venture with Komatsu to manufacture B series engines in Japan and also a venture to build high horspeower engines here in the U. S.



http://ccbn.tenkwizard.com/filing.p...FFFF&TC2=FFFFFF&LK=0000FF&AL=FF0000&VL=800080

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Blue I dug this up:



CUMMINS ENGINE TO ISSUE 3. 75 MILLION COMMON SHARES TO ESTABLISH EMPLOYEE BENEFITS TRUST. REPURCHASE OF 3 MILLION SHARES ALSO AUTHORIZED BY COMPANY - SHARES REPURCHASED FROM FORD MOTOR COMPANY - KENNETH DABROWSKI RESIGNS FROM BOARD. COLUMBUS, Ind.

(Jan. 3, 1997) - Cummins Engine Co. Inc. today announced that it will issue 3. 75 million shares of its common stock to an employee benefits trust for use in meeting the company's future obligations under employee benefit and compensation plans. While the trust shares may be used to fund a number of these plans, the principal use will be in funding contributions to employee retirement savings programs the company revised on January 1, 1997.

Formation of the trust and issuance of the shares to the trust will have no effect on the company's earnings per share calculation. Shares of common stock held by the trust will not be used in calculating the company's reported earnings per share until the shares are distributed from the trust and allocated to a benefit plan.

The company also announced that it has repurchased 1. 3 million shares of its common stock from Ford Motor Company and has authorized the repurchase of an additional 1. 7 million shares in the open market. In accordance with the terms of the company's 1990 investment agreement with Ford, Kenneth R. Dabrowski, a Ford vice president who has recently served on the Cummins Board of Directors under the terms of the investment agreement has resigned, effective with the repurchase. Following the repurchase from Ford, the company has approximately 38. 2 million shares outstanding.

Cummins, headquartered in Columbus, Ind. , is a leading worldwide designer and manufacturer of diesel engines and related products. These engines provide power for its key markets: automotive, power generation, industrial and filtration.

 

[esdd]

Ford currently offers the Cummins ISB in their f550, F650 and larger trucks. Here is the link to the features website showing the ISB as the only diesel option in the F-650 super-duty. If anyone doubts Ford is looking at other engine options, Ford has regular tours of their Louisville Truck Plant on Chaimberlain Lane in louisville, Kentucky. In their Product development/R&D department approxamately 25-30 trucks are sitting with diesel engines other than the powerstroke. The tourgide is especially proud of the F-250 and F350 super-duty trucks with the Cummins ISB. When asked the tourguide says that customer loyalty is being lost to other brands of trucks. There were trucks with Volvo, Cat, Detroit diesel, and other engines I didn't recognise as well. On the otherhand there are appx 20 Dodge Rams with other manufacturers engines, about half of which are mercedes built v-8's sitting at the Cummins Plant in Columbus.



In. http://www.commtruck.ford.com/ctw/default.asp



In our free market anyone can own shares of anything at anytime, Ford holds stock in Cummins through the Ford Motor Company employ pension holdings.



I feel that any manufacturer that is not exploring all options for any product has its head in the sond like the ostrich and is looking to be doomed to ultimate failure. The "Big Three" automakers have and will continue to occasionally turn out vehicles better off in the scrapyard, they all are constantly exploring new options and evaluating the competition's products.

 

[esdd]

Sorry the link above does not fully work, click the link, click showroom, click on F-650 or F-750 and brwse through the features and options.

 

[Big_Daddy_T]

I think the statistic was. At one time ford owned 7% of cummins stock. It was right around the time when cummins was coming up on a contract renegotiation with Chrysler. Last part being heresay. Now cummin says "No, Ford does not own any part of Cummins Inc. ". So if they have it on an investment maybe that is different. I cant see how. Cummins stock is probably a pretty sound investment. Maybe ford was thinking about a hostile takeover. I dont know how these things work. I watched other peoples money and thats the end of my expertise. Cummins is most likely too big to gobble up. And they would still have to honor their contract with DC so whats the point.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

You can't get the Cummins in the F550 - the powerstroke is the only diesel option. In the F650 and up you can get either the ISB at 185 hp, 205 hp, or 225 hp, a Cat at 190 hp, 210 hp or 300 hp (in the supercrewzer) or the Powerstroke at 210 hp. That is straight from Ford commercial website given above. As shown in the link above according to Cummins Ford own no part of Cummins at all at this time. Dodge has an exclusive agreement with Cummins for the ISB in 1 ton and smaller trucks good through 2007 so you definately won't be seeing it in any other pickups until at least 2008.



I'm amazed at the one guy up there that his service writer told him that they've fixed 90% of the problems so he's going to buy an '04!! Personally, I'd want to see 100% of the problems fixed before I'd sign on the line given the reputation at this point.

 

[CATCRACKER]

i can tell you one motor that furd wont be using and that is the detriot which is now owned by DC. hey maybe cat will throw furd and bone and give them a real motor instead of that POS powerstroke. if ford had a cat in them i might even consider furd. i cant believe i said that, but it is true! i believe cummins has ownership in cat also, not sure!?

 

[pdolan]

I am one of the unfortunate owners with a 7. 3 cackle pig. Ford not only didn't bother to stand behind this engine, it was their own version of how to feed fuel to the troublesome Cat HEUI injectors that caused a serious problem. Since they did NOTHING ever to solve my (or any other owners) 7. 3 problems, except lie to the customers with lines like "it's a diesel, they're all supposed to run like that' etc. , etc. we got rid of all of our Ford corporate fleet and bought 2500 CTDs. Other than lift pump problems, a rear end, and a turbo or two, they have been relatively reliable and infinitely better than the powerjoke.



I feel very sorry for anyone who became a guinea pig for FoMoCo by purchasing a 6. 0. I doubt there will EVER be resolution of 100% of the problems.



Pat

Pat

 

[Pit Bull]

Pat, I read about the cackle problems on the Ford PSD site and it was interesting to see other owners/members call members that complained about the cackle, trolls and other names. It seemed like a large number were in denial. At least we admit we have lift pump and other problems and work as a group to fix them.

 

[klenger]

It sounds like the TDR needs to create a separate topic for Ford PSD problems.

 

[pdolan]

Pit Bull:



Can't remember if you were over there a year or two back, but there is/was a dedicated core of people who did work together very effectively to find a fix for the cackle/knock problem. Even though the work was done in public, all results posted AND REPEATED FROM FORD's OWN LOCATION IN DEARBORN, there are still lots who deny there is a real problem. The problems are not all solved, but the bottom line was that Ford simply said "go screw yourself" when it came to customer support, even when the evidence was presented publicly that there is an actual problem shown in cylinder pressure recordings.



Klenger:



There probably isn't enough bandwidth on the internet to handle another site dealing with ALL of Ford's problems.



Pat

 

[Scot]

ESDD,

I went on a tour of Fords test facility in AZ back in '96, about a week after the new F150 was released to the press. As we walked through, I could not help but notice an F250 or F350 driving around that sounded exactly like a 12 valve Cummins!

 

[HVAC]

Cackle Issues

pdolan,



Have you looked into what Kim Lux is doing? Looks like he has a website up now. I realize from reading your post that you no longer have the Fords, but I'm curious on your take regarding Kim's efforts.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by pdolan

Pit Bull:



Can't remember if you were over there a year or two back, but there is/was a dedicated core of people who did work together very effectively to find a fix for the cackle/knock problem.

Pat

I agree that there is a core group of very intelligent level headed members. It is a very informative site and the radicals are very entertaining.

 

[bmoeller]

As far as the cackle is concerned, I have only heard 2 trucks that DON'T do it. The one that my grandpa used to have ('97) and one that runs around my area, but don't know who it is (also pre '99). All the rest I've heard do it.

 

[pdolan]

HVAC:



I have followed Kim's efforst since about the time he was tossed off of the F-D site (about when I came). I have often been at odds with him when he posted under other pseudonyms because of his attitude towards disclosure and that everyone else must be wrong and only he must be right.



None-the-less, I have waited for him to finish his injector programme (a lot longer than I had hoped) since he didn't send me an NDA and deal with me during his beta test days. I still have one Ford, a 450 4x4 tractor that is so unreliable I couldn't possibly let an employee take it out on the road, so I drive the POS myself (most staff have CTDs). BTW, I believe when (and IF) the cackle issue is finally completely solved (our fuel system mods help, but do not seem to be a full cure), most of the other (dirveline) problems will go away.



Pat