Dodge and the Cummins Name

[rbattelle]

Does anyone else find it particularly interesting that of the big 3 truck makers only Dodge actually puts another company's name and logo on their own trucks? I mean, the Powerstroke is built by International, but Ford seems to avoid any mention of that. Similarly, GM doesn't make any noise about the Duramax being an Isuzu. Kinda makes you wonder whether Ford and GM are embarrassed about who's making their engines!

 

[Trizae]

I agree,, but that goes one step further,,,,,to the customer,,, how many times have you seen "Dodge Makes It, Cummins Shakes It" or a big blue C on the back glass of a cummins power pickup. I to see to many ford and gm customers waving the Navastar of Isuzu Flag

 

[Steve M]

Seems as though you've reached the same conclusion I have.

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

I dont think we need to ask why... . as we already know the answer to that one... .

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Lets go back to 1988 for a moment. (some of this stuff is in old TDR issues, too).

Ford was using the bane-of-farmers International Harvester engine. Its main claim to fame was greater power and durability than the sorry excuse GM ws using.

For their part, GM proudly went from the sorry Olds diesel to one made by a presitgious GM-captive company, Detroit Diesel. The rest of the story is that GM ensured the failure of both engines by letting the bean counters run rampant. The Olds had to be a super cheap adaptation, and GM had taken away the Olds crank forging cacility in 1967, so Olds was stuck with a cast crank and four head bolts per cylinder. The Detroit Diesel was cursed with cast crank, odd spaced head bolts, and numerous other "oddities" including indirect injection whose design ensured that the heads would crack with regularity. I was told that pallets full of heads went to Iraq in 1991 to accompany the Hummers.



Against this backdrop of engines built to the lowest possible price, a couple Dodge engineers worked with a couple Cummins engineers without sponsorship. The 4B engine wasn't impressive, so they shoehorned the 6B into the Dodge pickup. They quickly found that some parts such as universal joints were marginal. They sold their project to dodge and Cummins, so in 1988 Dodge agreed to buy 15,000 engines, over the next several years.



History has not recorded the feelings of Ford and GM but it takes not too much imagination to believe that they were disgusted and outraged that Dodge was using an engine that was far too good and long lasting for a pickup truck, eclipsing their efforts. Prior to this, they felt they had Dodge covered. In fact, Dodge was a very small player in the pickup market; I have heard numbers in the 3-5% range for the relative number of trucks sold.



Lo and behold, Dodge had all 15,000 engines pre-sold with firm orders by Christmas, 1988. By begging Cummins, they were able to get 16,700 engines for the 1989 model year. History was again made this spring, with one million Cummins engines being sold to Dodge.



Ford yells "POWER STROKE" and Chevy hollers "DURA MAX" in response, to get customers' attention. Dodge quietly puts a small emblem on the fender that says "Cummins. "

Oo.

 

[y-knot]

With all the glory and name recognition cummins bring to the market for dodge, Why hasn't another big well known diesel maker like say Caterpillar thrown there hat into what appears to be a lucrative truck market??? Any one.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

The similar sized Cat is 300 lb heavier. Who are they going to approach? Ford and Chevy are already getting cheap engines that work well enough for a pickup and both companies are ruled by bean counters. I heard Cat would like to make a deal. . . I don't believe their volume/capacity is high enough so that is the chicken and egg for the auto mfg too. Cummins had the situation of starting small and being able to build capacity along with demand.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Right On...

Nice post Joe D!

 

[wcjp]

Didn't Cat make a concept with Dodge. I think it was called the Power Wagon or something to that effect. I remember there being a public relations flap at the time. Some unknown DC exec mentioned the Cummins may have a limited lifetime remaining with Dodge. It was within a day or so that DC held a big press conference with Cummins confirming a continued long term commitment.

 

[hammersley]

Cat parts are way to $$$$$$$

I've been told that the cost to fix a CAT is way more than a Cummins - is that true?????

 

[Diesel Nut]

May be, but you sell a million trucks with cat motors and the cost and availability of parts starts to get alot better. Really, how many of us own or know someone who owns a vehicle (not tractor) with a Cat? If it were a common name in the truck world like Cummins and International and Isuzu, prices and availability would be far better. But I don't worry bout it. I love my cummins. Wouldn't trade it for anything I've seen yet.

 

[Rman]

we have a number of CAT engines, i like them, but you are correct they are more expensive. I love the pur of a cat 3406. I wasn't aware they were that uncommon, but perhaps it's just cause i've seen a few. Cummins still kicks butt though.

 

[Steve M]

The Powerstroke's injection using high pressure engine oil is a Cat design. Very expensive. I don't know why more expensive and less reliable prevails with them. And glow plugs on an engine as technologically advanced as the PSD?

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

I heard the concept truck did have a Cat engine. However, the entire purpose and reason was to showcase bio-diesel fuel usage in a diesel-powered pickup. Some academics I think had built up a bio diesel program using a Cat engine, so that is what Dodge put into the concept truck. They were just showcasing technology that was "on the shelf" so to speak, not really indicating a change in preference for the production Rams.



It is not surprising that the beanie weenies at DC periodically rattle their sabers to keep the price of the Cummins down. However, I think the surveys (you did fill your out, didn't you??) clearly show that Rammers like the Cummins and are suspicious of other engines. Cummins seems to be the best at meeting EPA regs fully, while making power. The current deal goes through 2007. I am pretty sure the deal will be renewed--it is excellent for both DC and Cummins. No one else has the capacity to supply 100,000 engines to Dodge, and have them in inventory seamlessly as needed. We know Cummins can provided power uprates whenever Dodge wants/needs them to exceed the competition ratings. Cummins rules!

 

[csevers]

Heres my Opinion

Cat does make a very good heavy truck engine(class 8) while there medium dutys are ok not perfect by any means that I have seen, but I am soured on Cat due to the local dealer, if it doesn't have tracks they don't want to hear about it<. > They do a lot of off road equipment and I think that is there bread and butter so they don't spend a lot of money on advertising or push to hard in the truck market.



If Dodge was to drop the Cummins they may just as well shut the doors on the plants and go home. I don't think a switch after this long of a good thing would go over to well but with the Germs running the company anything could happen.



Craig

 

[PUMPERDUDE]

We know Cummins can provided power uprates whenever Dodge wants/needs them to exceed the competition ratings. Cummins rules!

Well said Joe D. ... Don't you know they had this planned long ago. Every time powersmokes or duracraps get close they just give the old 6 cylinder another little tweek and the Ford and Chevy engineers go back to the drawing board.

 

[HeavyHauler]

Originally posted by Dl5treez

Cat engines aren't *uncommon*, there are just not *around every corner* like the Cummins. They are quite a bit more expensive to order as an option than a Cummins or Detroit, and also quite a bit heavier. In the day and age of hauling as much as possible, light trucks win. That's why you see so many Series 60's around.

I don't know what it's like in the north or out west, but down here in the south Caterpillar rules the roost. Cummins in big rigs are relatively unheard of. Actually, they are unheard of - at least where I'm from. We have used as many as 7 different big rigs to pull our late model around the south, including Kenworth and of course, Peterbilt. All of them had Caterpillar motors. Maybe it's just where I come from, and most of the guys down here run 379 Petes an 900 model Kenworths - all conventionals.



I know basically every trucker in my small town, and none of them run a Cummins, it's not by their choice - it's just the way big rigs are configured. I'd take a Caterpillar over a Cummins or Detroit anyday in a big truck. Cummins doesn't have that kind of recognition on that end of the spectrum. Also, if I had a choice between a Cat and a Cummins in my truck - I'd go with the Cat if fuel econony was too big of a factor. I would say that probably most everyone would - simply because Cat has the name recognition as being tough and dependable. This is something that Cummins has yet to accomplish in the Class 8 market as far as I can see.



Just my opinions - no one has to take this to heart.

 

[rbattelle]

Hmph. I'm surprised to find Cummins is not as big a name in OTR trucks as I thought.



I'm surprised Cat's are preferred... it seems to me their HEUI injectors would be maintenance-intensive. I guess I'm wrong?

 

[E7mack96]

well ,here goes

My Western Star 4964 has a CAT in it



Ford/Sterling is selling the German MBE engine in its trucks, at least in the Cincinnati.



As for Mack, You CAN get a Cummins Signature 600 in a CH tractor or a CL Dump.



I do agree on the 3208 by CAt and the M11 by Cummins.



Actually, I am spec'ing a Signature 600 in a new CL tractor to pull heavy equipment with.



Cummins Rules !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[onestackdram]

Ok I am not sure exactly where I will go with this so bear with me. I am just currently a diesel tech student, but i am also 26 and have run diesels in everything from my personal trucks to our big trucks for the job I had since I was 14. We have run both CAT and Cummins engines in our big trucks, but only the Cummins in our personal trucks (surprise). And while the cummins in the big truck was easy to work on/around/in we had a few (not many) more problems than the CAT. However when the cat did go down (too long ago, and didnt pay enough attention at the time to remember what it was exactly) I do remember it BEING A NIGHTMARE to work on, and even worse to get parts.

Now being a student in the field and being able to see ALOT of options out there in both the mechanical world and the new electronic world, I have learned this. That while CAT makes a heck of a nice engine and a fairly reliable one, IT HAS TOO MANY UNNECCESARY PARTS. Where as the other makers seem to understand TO A POINT that no one wants/needs more parts that are pointless. That is just an opinion so dont take it to heart anyone. I have had the oportunity to dissassemble a CAT 3406/3208, a CASE 504/ a JD 916 and a Cummins 855 then reasemble them. The CASE and JD were by far the easiest to take down and build back up. The Cummins was a POS before I got my hands on it, but she went to gether ok the only issue I had was timing the Cam Fingers (you mechanics know what I am talking about). The CAT 3208 I HATE THAT DANG THING not diesel should ever be a V8, and the 3406 was fairly smooth but WAY to many parts IMHO.



Russell



I hope I didnt rattle on to aimlessly