Dodge gets slammed in Diesel Power Mag!

[cerberusiam]

What Harvey is saying, is, if the truck gvw and the trailer gvw is not over, the gcw don't count as long as he is licenced for it. If you take his truck at 12,000 gvw and his trailer at 14,000 gvw that totals 26,000 gcw. Yet his Dodge tow rating is about 23,000 gcw. So if he pays for 26,000 gcw he is legal because his gvw's are not over on the truck or trailer.

Thats correct EXCEPT your forgetting a couple of key pieces.



The trailer is hooked to truck with a hitch. Exceed the hitch rating and its the same as exceeding GVW, violation.



Last but not least, brakes are a big part of gross ratings. Exceeding gross ratings is essentislly exceeding the ability of the vehicle to stop in the prescribed time and distance. Result: violation.



There is a REASON medium duty trucks are not hauling +80k loads. If it don't stop and things come loose, somebody is held liable. Why is it so hard to apply this to light duty vehicles?

 

[JMetzger]

Harvey I use to respect you but calling me a liar has done me in with you. I tell you what we do lets lay a little bet say $10,000 dollars you come here & talk to the NHP & when you find out that that is the truth we will go to Ohio I will pay the way to Ohio & when you find I am telling the truth you can pay me. You are not the only one who knows the law & things are a changing in the way the law is enforced if you don't believe me when you are here I will let you met my son who is a police officer in Atherton, CA & maybe he can explain the law. I can back everything I have said so now put up or shut up.

 

[AHolbert]

Folks, I was advised by my attorney that you are exposed to potential liability if you're involved in an accident while towing over manufacturer weight ratings. I didn't see the necessity of challenging the guy,,,,,,I'm paying him $200/hr for legal advice and I haven't been disappointed by his advice yet. I've looked up the regulations regarding commercial carriers and not exceeding GAWR, GVW, etc. , and no, GCWR is not one of the weights that is regulated by the Commercial Carrier Regs as far as I can tell. The point is, why take the chance of exceeding Dodge Corporation's imposed max towing weights on a product they built,,,,,,,,there must be a shortcoming somewhere in that drivetrain,,,,,,who knows what it is ? I seriously doubt that Dodge is going to come defend you in a court of law or show up to testify that the weight limitation on their vehicle is due to a u-joint and getting the load moving up a steep grade or some bull**** like that. The limitation is placed on the vehicle for a valid reason and we can guess all day long what it may or may not be, but it doesn't change the fact that the limitation is there and exceeding it exposes you to potential liability. I can certainly see where exceeding GCWR could be considered reckless,,,,,,particularly if it was one of my kids that got ran over by an overloaded truck (over GCWR) because the truck was unable to stop in time to reasonably avoid the accident. Dodge needs to improve their product in order to stay competitive,,,,,,it's the way our system works... ... ... ... .

 

[Powder Extreme]

Harvey will never put up or shut up. He enjoys putting people down and letting everyone know what a know it all he is way too much.

I read an article in Nevada that a pickup was written a violation for exceeding the GCWR. I'm well aware of what the DOT laws are, I've had a CDL for 15 years. But to think you can't get yourself in trouble by exceeding GCWR is pretty naive.

I think a good lawyer could make a case for having the wrong air pressure in your tires if it could have somehow caused an accident resulting in injury.

 

[NIsaacs]

Thats correct EXCEPT your forgetting a couple of key pieces.



The trailer is hooked to truck with a hitch. Exceed the hitch rating and its the same as exceeding GVW, violation.



Last but not least, brakes are a big part of gross ratings. Exceeding gross ratings is essentislly exceeding the ability of the vehicle to stop in the prescribed time and distance. Result: violation.



There is a REASON medium duty trucks are not hauling +80k loads. If it don't stop and things come loose, somebody is held liable. Why is it so hard to apply this to light duty vehicles?

Yes I agree the hitch is part of the equation, however thats a whole 'nuther issue/story.



Like I said, if the truck is rated for 12,000 GVW (that includes the brakes) and the trailer is rated for 14,000 GVW (that includes the brakes). At 26,000 GCW it will stop.



When I was hauling with big trucks and I was over 80,000 GVW/GCW with a 5 axle truck/lowboy, all that was required was a state by state trip permit. They did not care what axles were over or if they all were. All that was required was bridge weight capacity.



Arizona is now starting to enforce tandem axle dually flatbed trailers (rated 20,000 GVW) towed by pickup trucks. They want it licenced as such and don't care what the GCW of the combo will be.



Nick

 

[HBarlow]

Harvey I use to respect you but calling me a liar has done me in with you. I tell you what we do lets lay a little bet say $10,000 dollars you come here & talk to the NHP & when you find out that that is the truth we will go to Ohio I will pay the way to Ohio & when you find I am telling the truth you can pay me. You are not the only one who knows the law & things are a changing in the way the law is enforced if you don't believe me when you are here I will let you met my son who is a police officer in Atherton, CA & maybe he can explain the law. I can back everything I have said so now put up or shut up.

Would you quote the paragraph where I called you a liar or any other name?

What in the world are you talking about with the comments about Nevada and Ohio?

I provided a link to the law, here it is: Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

Show me in the law where any of the claims you guys are making is written.

 

[HBarlow]

Folks, I was advised by my attorney that you are exposed to potential liability if you're involved in an accident while towing over manufacturer weight ratings. I didn't see the necessity of challenging the guy,,,,,,I'm paying him $200/hr for legal advice and I haven't been disappointed by his advice yet. I've looked up the regulations regarding commercial carriers and not exceeding GAWR, GVW, etc. , and no, GCWR is not one of the weights that is regulated by the Commercial Carrier Regs as far as I can tell. The point is, why take the chance of exceeding Dodge Corporation's imposed max towing weights on a product they built,,,,,,,,there must be a shortcoming somewhere in that drivetrain,,,,,,who knows what it is ? I seriously doubt that Dodge is going to come defend you in a court of law or show up to testify that the weight limitation on their vehicle is due to a u-joint and getting the load moving up a steep grade or some bull**** like that. The limitation is placed on the vehicle for a valid reason and we can guess all day long what it may or may not be, but it doesn't change the fact that the limitation is there and exceeding it exposes you to potential liability. I can certainly see where exceeding GCWR could be considered reckless,,,,,,particularly if it was one of my kids that got ran over by an overloaded truck (over GCWR) because the truck was unable to stop in time to reasonably avoid the accident. Dodge needs to improve their product in order to stay competitive,,,,,,it's the way our system works... ... ... ... .

Was that lawyer making the proper distinction between manufacturer's actual weight ratings which are GVWR and GAWR or was he discussing manufacturer's towing limits?

Manufacturer's weight ratings usually mean tire and axle and total vehicle weight limits and exceeding those numbers would certainly expose the operator to liability and legal penalty. If he was referring to tow ratings I don't think he knows what he is talking about.

As you and I agree, there is no reference to towing ratings in the USDOT code.

We also agree that the manufacturer's towing limits are based on driveline stress. As you stated, I agree that it is usually unwise to exceed the manufacturer's tow ratings because of the stress and strain placed on the truck's driveline. I have often stated that I don't recommend towing in excess of GCWR. My own fifth wheel weighs about 14,000 lbs. and I feel it is about all I care to tow with my truck.

Where we disagree is where you go beyond mechanical limitations and state that it is a "fact" that exceeding mechanical limitations exposes the operator to liability. It does not.

Adding the element of ability to stop the load is where this discussion goes off the track. No truck can stop it's maximum allowable towed weight with the truck's brakes alone. Every state has a requirement that trailers over a certain weight must have trailer brakes. The trailer weight requiring brakes varies between states but begins at as little as 1500 lbs. in some states IIRC. If the truck was required to stop the trailer our Dodges and the trucks built by any other manufacturer could not safely or legally haul any trailer. The same applies with 18 wheel OTR trucks. They legally tow 80k gross combined but the tractor alone could never stop that much weight.

Much of the reason for this discussion is language or choice of words. We all have a vague understanding and agreement that it is illegal to operate an overweight vehicle and that doing so can expose the operator to liability. But what is overweight? Actually understanding or defining that commonly accepted term is the key to understanding the issue.

Definitions matter. "Overweight" is exceeding tire and axle weight limits (GAWR) or the total allowable vehicle carrying capacity (GVWR). It is illegal and punishable by law to exceed those weight limits and the violator can and often is held liable in a civil court if he does.

Exceeding the manufacturer's towing ratings may result in engine or drivetrain failures, may result in voiding of the manufacturer's product warranty, and creates a vehicle that performs poorly. It does not violate the law and does not subject the operator to liability other than to pay for his own repairs.

 

[HBarlow]

Harvey will never put up or shut up. He enjoys putting people down and letting everyone know what a know it all he is way too much.

I read an article in Nevada that a pickup was written a violation for exceeding the GCWR. I'm well aware of what the DOT laws are, I've had a CDL for 15 years. But to think you can't get yourself in trouble by exceeding GCWR is pretty naive.

I think a good lawyer could make a case for having the wrong air pressure in your tires if it could have somehow caused an accident resulting in injury.

So far in this discussion, as in all discussions here in the forum, all you have contributed to the discussion is name calling and insults directed at me. Is that all you are capable of?

Perhaps you should go back to the beginning and read your posts again and see what I am saying?

 

[RVTRKN]

I think we are arguing about the same numbers, but in reference to the ratings, hitches are indeed relevant as well as 5ver hitches ratings. Yes my insurance will not cover me for using a hitch rated at 15K while towing at 20K but at the same time they will insure me for 25,999K (that was the actual registered weight) as long as the axles stay within their ratings and all hitches. GVWR does matter because if you look on your door it gives the axle rating as well as the GVWR, but do you see the GCVWR? no. The trailer manufacture must comply with the DOT regulations per their GVWR too include the axle weight.



Again, if an insurance company will insure you for the declared weight, then whats your argument? That means you have satisfied their requirements per lic, and registration. If you tow at above declared weight and hit someone, your an idiot, and you can bet the insurance will drop you.

 

[JMetzger]

Harvey, this is exactly what you wrote (I don't doubt that you are telling us the truth, that your cousin is a lawyer and judge or that he knows the law but the law is very broad and very complex. It includes criminal law, property law, marriage law, civil law, etc. Your cousin doesn't know trucking law if he told you that. ) Harvey I just reread what you said & my deepest apology to you for what I said. I miss read I thought you said I doubt where you said I don't doubt. As for him not knowing trucking law I would say that he has to as where he is Judge is on a busy national highway & a interstate runs through the city. I know he deals with a lot of truck violations such as over weights & equipment violations & such. Again I am very sorry as I miss read it.

 

[HBarlow]

Harvey, this is exactly what you wrote (I don't doubt that you are telling us the truth, that your cousin is a lawyer and judge or that he knows the law but the law is very broad and very complex. It includes criminal law, property law, marriage law, civil law, etc. Your cousin doesn't know trucking law if he told you that. ) Harvey I just reread what you said & my deepest apology to you for what I said. I miss read I thought you said I doubt where you said I don't doubt. As for him not knowing trucking law I would say that he has to as where he is Judge is on a busy national highway & a interstate runs through the city. I know he deals with a lot of truck violations such as over weights & equipment violations & such. Again I am very sorry as I miss read it.

It was not a big deal. I knew you misread my comment and thought I had deliberately insulted you. Your apology is accepted and appreciated but unnecessary.

 

[Powder Extreme]

So far in this discussion, as in all discussions here in the forum, all you have contributed to the discussion is name calling and insults directed at me. Is that all you are capable of?



Perhaps you should go back to the beginning and read your posts again and see what I am saying?

Harvery, perhaps it's YOU that should go back and read my first post!



I never mentioned your name or made any reference to you, even though by then you had put up several of your usual messages telling people how wrong they are. All I simply stated were more FACTS about the test and offered some opinions of my own.



Then, in usual HB style, you started in with your crap telling me how wrong I am, and none of it can be true, yada yada, blah blah. So I offered a real world test in your neck of the woods that YOU could administer, direct, control, whatever, first hand. Of course you declined, you don't have the balls to put your money where your mouth is. Then you went on further to insult me, inferring that I was like your brother-in-law you wish your sister never married. You've insulted and offended several people so far in this thread.



Have a nice day!

 

[HBarlow]

Harvery, perhaps it's YOU that should go back and read my first post!

I never mentioned your name or made any reference to you, even though by then you had put up several of your usual messages telling people how wrong they are. All I simply stated were more FACTS about the test and offered some opinions of my own.

Then, in usual HB style, you started in with your crap telling me how wrong I am, and none of it can be true, yada yada, blah blah. So I offered a real world test in your neck of the woods that YOU could administer, direct, control, whatever, first hand. Of course you declined, you don't have the balls to put your money where your mouth is. Then you went on further to insult me, inferring that I was like your brother-in-law you wish your sister never married. You've insulted and offended several people so far in this thread.

Have a nice day!

Yep, that's what I thought.

 

[Wyomingcowboy]

Whew! I just read through all 8 pages of this thread and it's been entertaining to say the least! I will support the motion to call to an end to D/C bashing on this site. If I had the money (and I DO NOT!) to buy a new truck it might very well be the Dmax mainly because of the ride. I feel like Ace Ventura II when he's bouncing around in that land rover thing in Africa and when the camera zooms out the vehicle is on smooth raod but he is still bouncing all over!

There are many sites to go sing praises of D/A but frankly, I don't wanna read about it here!

 

[Wyomingcowboy]

And in response to all the lawsuit/laibility stuff - don't drive like an idot and kill someone! I am like many of you and have seen many CRAZY loads going down the highway. I have seen 16 horses and a heavy 'ol steel trailer on a 1st gen dodge cummins that lookes scary as hell. I have seen HEAVY HEAVY equipment pulled up and down terrible roads. The comon denominator in my sightings is that these guys knew what they could handle and drove accordingly. I got some advice one time when I was illegally driving an overloaded dumptruck - "drive every heavy load as if you have no brakes" meaning to take plenty of time to stop.

As for HB making the claim that being sued is not a guarantee of being found liable - you are correct. But I also reference to 2008 elections - do you really trust the common man to not be swayed by slick presentation and vote in your favor? I offer Barack Hussein Obama as exhibit A to say I don't trust much when it comes to the masses.

Fortunately I live in a sort of a bubble and don't tread outside of God's country unless I really want to.

Anyway - flame on!

 

[AHolbert]

I'm not sure what you're referring to regarding the D/C bashing,,,,simply reporting results or comparing data such as power and weight ratings of competing brands is not what I would think of as bashing a product. If it were not for competition amongst the manufacturers, our CTD choice would probably still be the 160hp (or whatever it was) rating of the early CTD. No doubt these are great trucks and I plan on keeping my '95 forever. I've also got an 04 3500 that I won't, it's a great truck too but I'd like a better transmission behind it. So, the 04 will get traded or sold to make way for a new CTD after the breed has been improved... ... ... .



As far as the towing above GCWR issue goes,,,,,,I've simply passed on the legal advice I'd been told by my attorney. What legal precedent exists to support what he told me,,,,I don't know... ..... What he told me seems to make sense and whether or not I would prevail in case of a lawsuit is,,,,to me,,,a moot point if I can avoid the potential situation altogether by remaining within the limits as set forth by Dodge (or any other manufacturer whose product I'm operating) seems like a pretty good option to me. Whether one prevailed in a lawsuit or not,,,,,,,would still cost time and money. Some of you folks seem pretty close to giving legal advice,,,,,,,,are you attorneys ?



The other point I made earlier is that I don't want to take the chance of voiding my warranty in case I chose to ignore those same limits and then had the bad luck of having a mechanical failure. With the cost of these trucks now,,,,,,that's a considerable risk,,,,,at least for me !! The trend in recent years is for larger and larger trailers and 5th wheels and the truck manufacturers have responded to that trend with more and more capability. Right now, the Ram lags behind it's competitors (at least on paper and apparently some aspects of performance). I like knowing what my options are and firmly believe that we'll see a response from Dodge that will be an improvement in regards to the competition. Competition is a good thing,,,,,improves the breed !

 

[NIsaacs]

Getting back to the original post, sometimes Dodge needs slammed. They are always the last dog to get hung so to speak. They were about 10 years behind the competition with diesel development and 20 years behind Fords first midrange truck, the F450.



However with the Cummins they got it right the first time and I would buy a new one tomorrow if I could afford it



Now getting back to the overweight issue. I posted on another thread a while back of never being checked for GAW, GVW or tire capacity in 40 years of driving pickups to big trucks. If this type of weight enforcement was common, you would not see the 100,000's of one ton or F450 sized trucks with rollback wrecker bodies that are everywhere nation wide. A one ton is overweight with a small compact car and a F450 is overweight with a standard sized pickup.



If a city police officer, lawyer and insurance salesman were at a truck show and saw a big tired, jacked up, 4 door 1500 Dodge next to a stock 3500 diesel powered Dodge, they would be like, "wow" look at that big truck (1500)!!



Nick

 

[gtoli]

If a city police officer, lawyer and insurance salesman were at a truck show and saw a big tired, jacked up, 4 door 1500 Dodge next to a stock 3500 diesel powered Dodge, they would be like, "wow" look at that big truck (1500)!!



Nick

Hey Nick, I know the difference, we're not all ignorant about trucks!

 

[PEBrown]

My 2010 has more ponies and torque than I can use. Why jump on a Ford or GM just to have higher numbers? While the two make good vehicles, and I'm not putting them down, I'll keep the Dodge.

 

[Grizzly]

My 2010 has more ponies and torque than I can use. Why jump on a Ford or GM just to have higher numbers? While the two make good vehicles, and I'm not putting them down, I'll keep the Dodge.

I completely agree with that. Most of us have more power than we need.