Dodge or GMC?

[Jim Ross]

Thank you for checking... ... if I come up with any more questions, I'll ask.
You guys here are the best!

 

[RVTRKN]

In 01 there was a tour of Dodge trucks that came through here in LA, that impressed me not to buy a 2nd gen before they were gone. I wanted to buy a new truck to replace my 94 2nd gen 2500HD 360 gasser, and did not like the new looks of the 3rd gen. But when I saw how much more heavy duty the new 3rd gens were, I waited for them. Then California did not allow the HO version and so I waited some more. In 04, I finally bought my first CTD (325/600) and every thing I saw on that Chasse with drive train only in LA, proved to be true, I'm sure glad I waited.



The point to my story is not to compare your 01 to a 2010 vehicle. You need to compare a 2010 Dodge to a 2010 GMC. The 05 GMC DMAX service truck at 10K GVW was a dog and the 07 C&C I now own, beats it in every way. There is one exception, the Manual trans in my C&C is not comparable to the Alison. The Alison with the torque management controlling the engine when it thinks there is too much torque (trying to pass another vehicle when heavy) will de-tune the advertised 360HP. Also the MPG was very poor with the auto trany, and thats without a DPF. My C&C gets 13-15 MPG at 10K GVW, the GMC got 8-10 MPG, and keep in mind thats without a DPF on the DMAX



I just looked for the first time at a 4th gen 2500 CTD and chocked when I saw the sticker price at 50K for a SLT with moderate options. The same vehicle as my 04 that I paid 35K in 04. Good luck in your quest and only you need be happy with your choice, but I know with experiance that a CTD will flatout out work and out perform than a DMAX.

 

[Jim Ross]

Thank you... . I have been already thinking the same thing about comparing apples to apples. I just need to be able to FIND a regular cab CTD to look at!

 

[Shelby Griggs]

GM and Ford trucks WILL have urea, if not currently for the 2010's then for sure in the 2011 MY.



Dodge will not on the pickups BUT will also have urea on ALL C&C from 3500 through 5500.



You can get a SRW C&C in the 3500 version only.



I believe ALL 2011 vehicles will have DPF's, EGR's, etc. the only difference is that the Dodge pickups will not have the urea, instead using an absorber catalyst to reduce oxides of nitrogen (NOx) which is what the urea is for also. The other after treatment components are pretty much the same on ALL makes in order to meet the 2010 emissions.



I would take my chances on the Dodge product where there is THREE years of experience already in meeting the 2010 emissions standards, there were some teething problems for sure, BUT from all reports on this board things are pretty smooth sailing now, I would expect there to be issues with both Ford and GM products, it would be unusual for any manufacturer to NOT have some first year or two issues.



The EPA has mandated the cleaner emissions, no manufacturer is going to be free of all of the emissions hardware AND they pretty much ALL are using the same process to clean up the exhaust of course with the exception of the Dodge pickups (only) which don't use urea.



I am not so sure I would be afraid of the urea either, by all reports, urea equipped vehicles across the board get better mileage, however that might just offset the cost of buying the urea, time will tell. One thing with the urea, I think the engines might be tuned for a little less aggressive EGR action, but that is only a guess on my part, they are reportedly using less fuel and the after treatment surely isn't making fuel so they must be burning less i. e. : more efficient???



SHG

 

[Jim Ross]

Thanks for the input... . I had pretty much read all that you said in the latest TDR Mag. No one seems to know the cost of the urea fluid, at least I have not seen any costs listed anywhere yet.
Also, I was not sure that the 3500 C-C was available in a SRW version.
Thanks!

 

[Shelby Griggs]

Also, I was not sure that the 3500 C-C was available in a SRW version.

Thanks!

Well it for sure was with the 3rd gen body style through the C&C 2010MY, hopefully that will be carried over when the C&C gets the 4th gen body style for MY 2011.



DEF in bulk is currently close to fuel prices at Pilot truck stops and I suspect others, however DEF is $8 / gal by the single gallon jug from Cummins

Cummins /Fleet



SHG

 

[mwilson]

We had to buy several cases of DEF as part of our dealer agreement (Daimler made us, in other words. ).

The 2 gallon size jugs that I have here sell for $10. 45 each. So $5. 225 per gallon.



As with all things the price will come down as more people have it in stock, demand will lower the price. All of us that had to pre-buy will get stuck, fact of life.



At least I didn't have to buy the 300 gallon totes like some of the Cummins distributors did. :-laf

 

[Jim Ross]

It will be very interesting to see the true chemical formulation of the urea fluid... . there is no reason that I can think of for it to be expensive once the auto parts stores get into the game. Urea is a very common and inexpensive product. It is a common fertilizer component..... in that application it is corrosive and that aspect has me concerned when it comes to injecting it into a mechanical system.

 

[Grizzly]

GM and Ford trucks WILL have urea, if not currently for the 2010's then for sure in the 2011 MY.



Dodge will not on the pickups BUT will also have urea on ALL C&C from 3500 through 5500.



You can get a SRW C&C in the 3500 version only.



I believe ALL 2011 vehicles will have DPF's, EGR's, etc. the only difference is that the Dodge pickups will not have the urea, instead using an absorber catalyst to reduce oxides of nitrogen (NOx) which is what the urea is for also. The other after treatment components are pretty much the same on ALL makes in order to meet the 2010 emissions.



I would take my chances on the Dodge product where there is THREE years of experience already in meeting the 2010 emissions standards, there were some teething problems for sure, BUT from all reports on this board things are pretty smooth sailing now, I would expect there to be issues with both Ford and GM products, it would be unusual for any manufacturer to NOT have some first year or two issues.



The EPA has mandated the cleaner emissions, no manufacturer is going to be free of all of the emissions hardware AND they pretty much ALL are using the same process to clean up the exhaust of course with the exception of the Dodge pickups (only) which don't use urea.



I am not so sure I would be afraid of the urea either, by all reports, urea equipped vehicles across the board get better mileage, however that might just offset the cost of buying the urea, time will tell. One thing with the urea, I think the engines might be tuned for a little less aggressive EGR action, but that is only a guess on my part, they are reportedly using less fuel and the after treatment surely isn't making fuel so they must be burning less i. e. : more efficient???



SHG

When will Dodge trucks equipped with a diesel be required to use urea? Why is the 2010 Dodge C&C required to use urea and not the pick-up trucks?



george

 

[Shelby Griggs]

The C&C trucks are generally used for a different duty cycle than the pickups, thus different emissions, on the 3500 C&C I suspect they could of gone without the urea, but maybe they couldn't on the 4500-5500 trucks due to GVW ratings??? To be consistent they just went with urea on ALL C&C platforms. Some of this is only speculation on my part.



When the 4th gen C&C are introduced to the market they will have the urea, which will be for the 2011 MY, not sure when that date will be, this fall for sure, but maybe a bit earlier. If you want a C&C WITHOUT urea, then you need to purchase the 3rd gen body style ASAP while there are still a few available.



SHG

 

[daverobb]

For what it's worth, I have had ZERO problems with my truck. It has been back to the dealer only 2X since I bought it new in January of '08, once for the firewall recall and the second time for the BA flash. It is a dream tow rig and a joy to own and drive.

 

[Jim Ross]

Well Guys, today we went into town and took test drives in a 2009 Chevy Duramax 4WD and and a 2010 Dodge Cummins 4WD. Both were 6 speed AT's.
IMHO, the Cummins was more responsive and a quieter engine than the Duramax; the Dodge had a smoother ride, again IMHO. I also thought the fit and finish of the Chevy cab interior was not as good as the Dodge and again IMHO, the quality of the Chevy interior was not as good as the Dodge. Although I liked the layout of the dash in the Chevy more than in the Dodge, but that is just a personal thing.
So, IF I were going to buy, I would pick the Dodge over the Chevy.

However, I was so disappointed by both trucks that I have pretty much decided to just keep my 2001!

Once again, IMHO, it seems that no one makes a real truck anymore, they are all loaded with plastic and they all seem "tinny" to me. Not that my 2001 is anything close to a 1960 Power Wagon, but the new trucks all seem to be made of such light materials that I just can't generate much enthusiasm for them.
One place the Chevy seemed to me to have a slight advantage over the Dodge was in the lower front bumper area... . it had less plastic down low. One trip into a picked corn field or one trip over a sage brush and I can see several hundreds of dollars worth of damage to the plastic junk hanging on the lower fronts of the trucks. The absolute first thing I would have to do is spend $1500 putting a Ruenel bumper on the front of any new truck.
Maybe I am the odd duck left in the world, but I want a truck that I can actually use and not have to worry about taking to the body shop after a day in the country. And, I know the whole thing is about fuel economy and emissions, but before I spend $40-50K on a new truck, I have to be impressed that it is a REAL truck and not a vehicle meant for street use only.
There you have it and it is only my opinion, maybe not shared by too many, but it is still MY opinion. I am eager to read your responses!

 

[mxaaron]

Keep the 01 and beat the heck out of it. I just got rid of one, and changed to the 09. I definitely think it is a little less "durable" as far as the body and trim. The engineering though seems to be quite a bit better than my 01. 5 was. The 2010 far surpasses the 09 too in design and style.



If you are looking for the old style lead sled though, you shouldn't be looking at any of the new trucks. Just keep what you have.

 

[Jim Ross]

Yep... one of the reasons (besides the Cummins) that I bought a Dodge instead of Chevy or Ford in 2001 was that the Dodge still used a solid front axle and the others had gone to the independent front suspension and I wanted the most heavy duty truck available.
One of the toughest trucks I ever owned was a '77 Chevy... . if I could find one squirreled away in someone's barn in great shape, it would be tempting to buy it and drop a 502 gasser in it!

 

[Grizzly]

Perhaps what you need is a 1st gen Dodge with a Cummins and a standard trans in it. They are much more durable and capable of a drive in a corn field. That's IMHO.



PS, I'm very happy with my 05 and I believe it is durable.

 

[RVTRKN]

Yep... one of the reasons (besides the Cummins) that I bought a Dodge instead of Chevy or Ford in 2001 was that the Dodge still used a solid front axle and the others had gone to the independent front suspension and I wanted the most heavy duty truck available.

One of the toughest trucks I ever owned was a '77 Chevy... . if I could find one squirreled away in someone's barn in great shape, it would be tempting to buy it and drop a 502 gasser in it!

Yes, I was just thinking about the difference in the front of the Chevy, but Ford still has a solid axle. The "point" I was thinking about was the drive smother ride comment. The Chevy had a smother ride (I don't like trucks that sag because the manufacture wants you to feel comfortable), but I haven't driven a 2010 CTD 4X4 yet. The gage of the metals in conjunction with plastic, really sucks, and is a reality we now have to deal with, but eventually you will have to buy new. Just think of the future, when you must replace your 01 in 2015, I'm willing to bet that the metal will be even thinner or even fiberglass, some Ford 150 models already have fiberglass beds. Just food for thought.



The C&C must go to UREA injection because the C&C's 6. 7 was never 2010 compliant, and is the reason you hear less about the DPF issues with a C&C. Its something that was an advantage that I liked about them, but was not my reason for a C&C purchase, in fact when I bought my C&C, nobody, not even the factory reps could ever give me a strait answer. I had to furnish my salesman, I bought from for 10 years, with info on the Aison trany as well as pictures and articles on the 6. 7 and the only person who got it right, was the Dodge rep at the Rodeo finals in Vegas, where I could actually look at a C&C with fully loaded options, other than a work truck.



FWIW, I also didn't like the steering wheel off to one side, in relationship to the drivers seat in the Chevy, it always felt a little weird.

 

[Jim Ross]

Those are all good points, guys.
I have actually thought about just sitting here with my 2001 and continue to use it... and all the while to start keeping my eyes open for a C&C that someone has already set up with a flatbed. I just have a feeling that if I wait and watch without getting in a hurry that I will find one and that I won't have to pay anything close to $40K to get it. I could live with a low mileage truck that's 2-5 yrs old if it meets my needs and the price is fair.
My 2001 is set up pretty good (see my signature below) and it runs good, pulls good and still looks very good. I know that with 123K on it that I am probably going to have to replace hubs and ball joints before long. The transmission is working good, I believe due to the upgrades I put in it when it was new. I had to have the rear axle rebuilt about 15K miles ago, so it should be good for a long time. Another item that I may have to replace is the steering box as it is beginning to show the first signs of seepage; however, I already have a Borgeson steering shaft and I will use their box if I have to put a new one in. With the Reunel bumpers, I don't worry if I have to pull off a dirt road and drive over a sage brush once in a while.
So, I think that holding off and keeping my eyes open is the better option, for me.

 

[Grizzly]

Those are all good points, guys.

I have actually thought about just sitting here with my 2001 and continue to use it... and all the while to start keeping my eyes open for a C&C that someone has already set up with a flatbed. I just have a feeling that if I wait and watch without getting in a hurry that I will find one and that I won't have to pay anything close to $40K to get it. I could live with a low mileage truck that's 2-5 yrs old if it meets my needs and the price is fair.

My 2001 is set up pretty good (see my signature below) and it runs good, pulls good and still looks very good. I know that with 123K on it that I am probably going to have to replace hubs and ball joints before long. The transmission is working good, I believe due to the upgrades I put in it when it was new. I had to have the rear axle rebuilt about 15K miles ago, so it should be good for a long time. Another item that I may have to replace is the steering box as it is beginning to show the first signs of seepage; however, I already have a Borgeson steering shaft and I will use their box if I have to put a new one in. With the Reunel bumpers, I don't worry if I have to pull off a dirt road and drive over a sage brush once in a while.

So, I think that holding off and keeping my eyes open is the better option, for me.

Now you're talking. Great idea.

 

[Wygate]

Jim,

If you end up still looking at buying a GM I just came over to the Cummins from a Dmax, had it for 8 years no real issues other than normal wear and tear. I have had some pretty big issues with my 09 but in the end do enjoy the Cummins and the rest of the platform it is attached too.