Dodge volume test on lift pump/won't honor warranty

[SPickett]

After many hours on the phone, explaining to multiple people and being on hold I was eventually given an answer. Dodge test for a volume rate about 590 ml. My truck tested at 610. Therefore by the dodge standards it was not bad.
I do disagree strongly with if it was bad, but they are not required to replace it as it test to their standards. It is their warranty so they get to use whatever standard they want. If you look back I stated that they would not tell me what the truck tested to or what the standard was. Had they told me to begin with most of this would have been a non-issue.
After leaving the dealership my truck still had major issues of power loss and stalling or a hesitation in throttle response. After putting the FASS pump on she runs great. I would strongly recommend to everyone they get a fuel pressure gauge so they can watch for lift pump failure. Even if it means you have to pay for the pump yourself as I did at least your truck will run right and not ruin other parts. Such as injectors which do not have enough return flow to cool them, or your injector pump which is basically now sucking out of the fuel tank.

 

[SPickett]

SPickett,



Next time you want to post asking for "advice and first hand experience" from other TDR members you should ask for only those who agree with you to post, even when you are wrong. That way you can be sure that no one will disagree with your statements.

What I have not enjoyed was the demeaning way several people have spoken in their posts or how they seem to enjoy being judgmental towards other people. Honest advice or experience different from mine is welcome.

 

[SPickett]

I didn't mean to be a smart A, but in your first post you claimed that the proper procedure to test was a pressure test, implying you know more than the technician. As stated, and confirmed by a factory TSB and the Cummins warranty fuel test sheet, the only test Chrysler uses is a volume test. So I was just stating facts that you do not know what your talking about when it comes to lift pump diagnosis. Now for the dealers part, he should have known the lift pump was covered so he didn't know what he was talking about. So I still stand by my statement that you and the dealer didn't know what they were talking about.

As for your problem and the fix, I can't imagine any technician, even a stupid one installing six injectors (about $3200. 00 warranty cost to Chrysler) if the lift pump didn't pass a volume test. Call the dealer and ask them for the specs, they were probably recorded on the repair order. So even if they had known the LP was covered, you diagnosed it as bad, not them, and I'm still betting they performed a volume test before putting in the injectors.

And finally, you should feel extremely lucky that you have six new injectors in your truck, especially when they were probably bad from fuel or water contamination in the first place. I wouldn't want to spend $1000 on my truck any more than you, but looks to me like for $1000 you got a fresh set of injectors and an upgraded fuel system at 100,000 miles. The alternative was a new free lift pump, and a stuck injector at 105,000 miles that scored a cylinder that cost YOU $12,000 to fix.

The psi test is what Bosch the maker of the pump recommends. The volume test is what dodge uses. I disagree with the volume test alone but that is up to them to decide. My biggest issue over the test is that Bosch says something different should be done and they make the pump. Also that they would not supply me with the numbers of what is a good and bad test. They also would not tell me what my truck tested to. After much time and energy they answered those questions. I may not like it, but I do accept it. Would have been nice if they had just answered me to begin with.

 

[SPickett]

A Cummins engine in a Ford does not solve all the problems. I have a 2007 Ford F650 5. 9 Cummins. At 90,000 miles I just paid Cummins North central to replace lift pump for the 4th time. They also relocated the pump to the frame. When i still had warranty they would only replace it in the original location. The lift pump problems are more of a Cummins problem than a Dodge or Ford problem. All brands have issues. For me Dodge has less problems than any other brand.

lol that may be but you sure have a nice roomy interior. I'm very disappointed by how they handled the warranty and the policy in place on the lift pump. This is the 2nd dodge diesel I've bought in the last 4 years. Love the cummins motor but am disappointed by many other things.

Did you do the conversion yourself or have someone do it? Either way very cool. I've seen pictures a Excursion that had been done to. Would love that. Interior room for my dogs and kids and a cummins. what could be better.

 

[TCDiesel]

(946 ML in 1 Qt) If the stock lift cannot Produce more than 3/4 GPM the stock truck will Lack HP, Federal-Mogul makes the Lift pumps attach to the Filter canister,Mopar makes the In tank Pump but I believe it is Made By ?, Mopar makes the Canister and lines, Bosch is the Maker of the CP3 and the entire Injection system. What is the authorized procudure?

 

[SPickett]

Well the dealership procedure is that the volume test with 590 ml or more being proper volume. Mine tested at 610. At that level I had a serious loss of power during normal driving. It was especially noticeable when driving in the mts. I also had a delay in response when pushing on throttle. I also had 6 injectors which magically went bad. The dealership did fix those under warranty. But she still had all the same issues. My shop that I go to by choice recommends a psi test and uses the specs from Bosh that at under 6 psi when under a load the pump is bad. Again after replacing the pump and nothing else being different all my issues went away.

 

[Bob4x4]

Where did you see that 6 psi spec as being bad for our common rail ?

 

[SPickett]

Actually it was under 6 psi under a load. i will ask the shop I go to exactly where they got it from and put it up here when I do.

 

[BrianJ]

My shop that I go to by choice recommends a psi test and uses the specs from Bosh that at under 6 psi when under a load the pump is bad. Again after replacing the pump and nothing else being different all my issues went away.

I would question the information you are getting from this other "shop" as well. Perhaps they were motivated to sell a FASS? I have never seen a Bosch spec for lift pump pressure. In fact, the GM version of the Bosch common rail doesn't even use a lift pump.



As others have stated, Bosch does not make the lift pump, only the CP3 high pressure injection pump.

 

[TCDiesel]

I will try and clarify, The CP3 (Picture Below) internally feeds the body, it holds about 6/8 oz of fuel, pressure is of no concern . there is no internal regulator. Now if for some reason air or lack of volume should enter the center cavity there will be drop in external pressure it will resonate all the way to the rail pressure gage and will be instantly pickup, this will cause the engine to stumble or even died. The rail pressure gage is the only sensor on the truck to measure fuel pressure. As long as it has adequate volume with minimal pressure it will function properly. Additional pressure can be added but is not required.

 

[SPickett]

I would question the information you are getting from this other "shop" as well. Perhaps they were motivated to sell a FASS? I have never seen a Bosch spec for lift pump pressure. In fact, the GM version of the Bosch common rail doesn't even use a lift pump.



As others have stated, Bosch does not make the lift pump, only the CP3 high pressure injection pump.

I have known them for many years and in fact they went out of the way to look up my warranty with dodge, tell me it was still covered. And charged me nothing for looking at it. I did not know I had a 100k warranty still as I did not buy it new myself. They could have sold me 6 injectors for about 3300 after labor and the pump. I came back to them for the pump after it still ran horrible and dodge said it was fine. I'm not sure what a gm has to with my dodge. Not quite a fair comparison. Different motors entirely. V8 vs straight 6, both diesels but very different in design and function.



But all that aside, ok so dodge can volume test all they want. They want to call it good they can. Great for them. My truck ran horrible, and after changing the pump it runs great. Pretty easy math. Everyone else can do whatever they please but I'm damn happy I replaced the pump instead of listening to the dealership and the volume test.

 

[SPickett]

As I'm quite confident in where I go and there seems to be ? from people it is Engle Automotive In Loveland Co. I've know them for many years and I trust them completely. In fact they are dodge guys themselves. Willing to work on any diesels, but both brothers who own it drive a Cummins.
Home | Engle Automotive

 

[BrianJ]

I'm not sure what a gm has to with my dodge. Not quite a fair comparison.

It has quite a bit to do about it as it's virtually the same fuel system minus the lift pump.



I have yet to see any feedback on where this Bosch recommendation came from (6psi pressure spec) on a pump they don't even build.



You ask for feedback, yet it seems as though the only feedback you want is criticism of the "offending" dealer and telling you that you're right and the dealer is wrong. There has been some good and straightforward information given in response to your original post, from people who have a solid reputation and knowledge base here, yet you continue to dismiss it.

 

[SPickett]

sigh. Actually I already stated that the dealership was "right" in not replacing my pump and had they given me the information I asked for right off the bat it would have certainly saved me a lot of time, and trouble. They were wrong about it being covered but right on it meeting their requirements. I said I disagree with them on what qualifies as bad but that is my opinion and I would rather pay for it myself and have the truck run right that go off what they say and have it run like ****. Most feedback has been a waste of time and I'm done with this. It has become a waste of time and energy.

End result was that I simply should have done whatever I wanted and not even bothered to ask for other peoples experiences.

too bad there is not a delete option as it is my post.

 

[kkreigh]

There are good Dodge dealerships and poor Dodge dealerships.



There are good qualified service writers and there are poorly qualified service writers.



There are well trained competent Dodge mechanics and there are poorly or untrained Dodge mechanics.



I always ask around about dealerships and research their reputations before I use their services. It isnt always the cheapest that are the best.



I have owned numerous Dodge products since 1972 both for commercial and personal use. I have found when you find a "good" dealership problems like this one either don't happen at all or are resolved to everyones satisfaction quickly.

 

[cerberusiam]

It has quite a bit to do about it as it's virtually the same fuel system minus the lift pump.



I have yet to see any feedback on where this Bosch recommendation came from (6psi pressure spec) on a pump they don't even build.

Don't make the mistake assuming the Chevy fuel system is the "same". It is not. Different lines, different routing, and, adding an inline pump to the Chevy's is common practice to supply adequate fuel.



While there is no "official" pressure, experience has proven what the minimums are to provide adequate fuel with the stock fuel system. It really doesn't matter what the official stance is if it doesn't work. Cumulative experience is often much more important than what the book says. The whole VP-44 experience is a perfect case of this.



The OP's experience is not unusual and simply points out the fallacy of using a single point of testing to determine problem resolution. The flow the dealership documented was inadequate to solve the problem. It was solved by doing just what we have been doing for the better part of 10 years. Hard to argue with positve results.

 

[Bob4x4]

He also has a pressure box in his sig... ... ... ... possibly why the injectors were needed

 

[BrianJ]

Don't make the mistake assuming the Chevy fuel system is the "same". It is not. Different lines, different routing, and, adding an inline pump to the Chevy's is common practice to supply adequate fuel.



While there is no "official" pressure, experience has proven what the minimums are to provide adequate fuel with the stock fuel system. It really doesn't matter what the official stance is if it doesn't work. Cumulative experience is often much more important than what the book says. The whole VP-44 experience is a perfect case of this.



The OP's experience is not unusual and simply points out the fallacy of using a single point of testing to determine problem resolution. The flow the dealership documented was inadequate to solve the problem. It was solved by doing just what we have been doing for the better part of 10 years. Hard to argue with positve results.

I certainly wouldn't dispute any of what you are saying. I myself went through the decision process involving the tested pressure of my factory filter mounted lift pump. I had a shop test the pressure of my pump and it was rather low, I don't remember the specifics off the top of my head, but it was under 4-5 at idle and would drop lower under WOT. I decided to install the FASS instead of going through the dealer and their flow test, which I new may or may not show a flow issue. I put the $100 the test and/or in-tank pump would have cost me under warranty towards the purchase of the FASS, and made the decision knowing the cost was on my dime.



My main point of contention is that the OP is basically disregarding valuable input provided by respected members of this forum, such as yourself, when by making a post in the first place the OP asked for such feedback. I will be the first to admit that I am not an expert on much of this, but I have been around this and other forums a long time and pay close attention to anything regarding the 3rd gen CTD's. There was also a claim made regarding Bosch standards, and I (as well as others) was just looking for any type of info to back that claim up. While the VP44 had issues with a failed lift pump, from what I understand the CP3 is not as sensitive in this regard, and the main reason a CTD will die from a failed lift pump is that fuel doesn't flow through a frozen pump, but remove or bypass the pump and the CTD will continue to run (not saying it would be good for the long term).



As far as Duramax owners adding lift pumps for their application, would it be safe to say they are trucks that see other performance modifications as well which require more fuel? Is this a common occurence on a stock Duramax?