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Doggone you Ted!

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Guys, I'm in a quandry! Here's the situation:

I was just about ready to bite the bullet & upgrade my stock injectors to DD2's. My truck is stock except for an Edge EZ, I do have gauges (Westach combo boost/egt), but still have the stock airbox/filter, and exhaust. My plan was to monitor my egt's, if things were getting uncomfortably warm with the injectors, I thought I would try a less restrictive air filter (not sure which one) to see if that cools her down enough. If not, I would ditch my stock exhaust.

I was hoping I would be OK egt wise without changing anything on the intake/exhaust at this time, I plan to do so eventually, but can't see the harm in trying the injectors first. If it's too hot, at least I know what to do.



That was my plan until I read in another post a few days ago where Ted J. advised a guy not to go beyond Bosch 275 RV's or DD/BD stage 1's unless he was working the truck hard all the time. Ted was concerned about ring wash, oil dilution, etc. from the extra fuel. Lord knows, I certainly defer to Ted's knowledge and experience when it comes to hot-rodding diesel's, but that post was the first I had heard about this particular problem with stage 2 injectors. I searched this morning, and could not find the post I am referring to, so maybe I am misunderstanding/misinterpreting something.



What is the consensus among the experts? Are stage 2 injectors too much on a truck that spends the majority of it's time running empty?



PS: I know I'll really have to take it easy on my stock clutch untill I'm ready to upgrade to a South Bend.
 
Not a problem!

I've run larger injectors since the truck had 50 miles on it (DD3's and BDIV's ) I had my head off to do the gasket and the cylinder walls looked absolutely perfect. I wouldn't worry about washdown so long as you don't let the truck idle for extended periods of time.



I practically never tow and am always "empty. "
 
Re: Not a problem!

Originally posted by Blkdawdg

I wouldn't worry about washdown so long as you don't let the truck idle for extended periods of time.




I think this is the key. Lots of people do it, but they let it idle for that 15 extra minutes when they could shut it off. If you have to let it idle, do yourself a favor and get a high idler and turn it on, or if you have a exhaust brake you can use it too.



Andrew
 
I disagree with Ted on this one. Cylinder "wash down" is really not the best terminology to use IMO. I call wash down a problem from injectors that leak or dribble fuel from being bad or modified improperly.

Fuel that is not atomized is hard to burn and can wash the cylinders down. Injectors that are properly made do atomize the fuel correctly and dont wash down cylinder walls in the traditional sense.

Can you get faster cylinder wall/ring wear with big injector? Yes IMO but it is so slow though you probably will never know it though. Modifying will shorten engine life in some cases. It will lenghten it too in certain scenerios. Injectors dont do it fast enough IMO to worry about.

Get some larger injectors if you want larger HP. The amout of fuel the pump sends to them is adjustable with the boxes that control fueling. Just turn the box down to send less fuel.





Don~
 
I wouldn't worry about Diesel Dynamics injectors, whatever the size. Mine are so big you can poke a finger into the nozzles :D Well, maybe not quite that big, but if the injectors are done correctly and the seats are not worn out by overhoning, you won't have any trouble. I find it worthwhile to go to the best for such processes. I use my Ram daily so can't afford to have unreliable, cylinder-washing injectors. I use DD or Bosch exclusively, and have been very satisfied.
 
RedRam1

I just put in DD3s and had a PE Comp and the clutch was hangin on very well.



I have you truck w/training wheels don't worry. Worst case you'll have to get a clutch.



I over powered the clutch when I put in the B1. You just gotta get one... When the stock clutch came out at 34k it looked very good probably good for another 30-50k if I wasn't running over 430hp!!!!



The EZ and DD3s ROCK. you'll hit high 30's on boost an 325-350hp. IT is unreal. Go for it. If you break it, fix it.
 
I traded PM's with Keith from DD about Super Mentals-and one of the questions I asked him was about cylinder washdown in cold weather. The response was an emphatic NO... ... . so if DD doesn't figure it's a problem with SM's II's should be just fine :D .



I'm still on the fence-I want Super Mentals bad bad bad but in reality the Silver Cloud is a work truck :) (yeah-lots of work trucks with heated leather seats and CD players let alone chrome out the wazoo!) and it has to go every day. My service ain't exactly the best in the world either-lots of stop and go with short periods of idling (when I jump out to check a well). May just have to get in the habit of either flipping up the idler or turning on the E-brake everytime I stop-do it now for the longer stops like logging a booster... ... .



Don's on the mark too with the adjustable box idea. Thinking my DragCOMP will allow me to get away with showerheads for working-hoping that's the way it works anyways!!!



Jason
 
Here is an example of an injector that is properly atomizing the fuel. Or in this case test oil, with no needle to close to the seat and about 100 psi of air. Now, take that same injector and pop it about 3600 psi and watch the atomization. :D
 
One more... . this is a DD stage 3 extrude honed injector.

Perfect balance and great atomization.



Its very hard to take these pictures. I just set the camera on sequence and start taking pictures and try to get it take the picture at the right time. This was one shot out of about 100 that turned out right and it still is crap.
 
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Diesel Dynamics checks and sets the pop-off pressure on every injector they modify and sell. I have watched the atomization when they tested some injectors--different times, different types of injectors at random--and they are beautiful things to watch.
 
~

Originally posted by CAnderson

Any possibility of this happening with bosch 370s?



Chris,



The 370's have a little fuel sac built into the tip of the injector. In super super extreme conditions I have seen this sac broken or chiped off from very high heat. Tractor pulling type heat. Very hot stuff. Way over what you would run on the street. This little sac is one reason the 370's are not extrude honed by folks looking to make more power. If I had one I would pop up a picture of the sac to show you what I mean. The holes are actually in the sac area of the nozzle.

Anyway, the proper 370's are good stuff. I have them in my truck right now and they fuel like crazy and still idle great. Prolly better then the stockers did.

Since they are a stock Bosch injector I would worry very little about them lasting a long long time.



Don~
 
The DD3's are the sweetest injectors I have run in my truck as far as low smoke and clean idle go. They make less power on the top end than the 370's do in dyno testing.

Spool up and mid range is the same. Top end was about 8HP less.



The fuel mileage with the DD3's was better than the stock injectors. The 370's are a bit worse and run richer in town at low speeds. This is with major fueling and big delivery valves.



Since the DD3's were removed for the 370's I have not tried to do mileage calcs. I just fill it up and drive till it needs more. Mileage became a secondary to me here lately. I still get a long trip on a tank of fuel though.



370's are cheaper to buy than the DD3's because they are a stock injector for a marnine engine. The DD3's are the 215 injectors extrude honed. The 215's are traditionaly more money to obtain and then you gotta add in the honing and handwork from DD.



My vote would be for the DD3's for everyday drivers and the 370's for guys who chase HP and want all they can get.

On a budget... . 370's.



The second picture is of a DD3. I wish you could see the spray pattern these babies have. It is so balanced and clean. The picture is crap and was shot using the camera set on kill to capture the shot. I just turned it on full tilt and set the camera down while it was snapping pictures I grabbed the injector and tried to get in front of the camera to get the shot. Neighbors around here seem to think IM not right... now they are convinced after watching this show:D Mad scientist at work in Dallas.



Don~



edit- I know the pictures are crappy but take a close look at the top injector. It is a full tilt scary fire nozzle for a pulling tractor that uses lower injection pressure than we do. The atomization is not nearly as good as the DD3 in the second picture. It is dern hard to get a clean burn and good fuel light off with the top nozzle. The top one would melt down a street truck very fast even empty. Forget towing.

The DD3 is a street injector that will last forever and give good mileage and drivability while making good power. The droplets are super fine compared to the fire nozzle. This is what the diesel engine works best with in a street driven truck and part of the reason the DD injectors are kick butt.



I have not looked at the atomization in the 370 yet, but it is very close to the DD3 Im sure.
 
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Thanks, everyone, for all the advise. Sounds like the consensus is that washdown is not a problem with DD injectors. I missed Piers' special on dd2's last month, but I am going to go ahead and get some when I get my refund from Uncle Sam.



I sure hope my clutch will hang with me for a while. We're in the process of building a new home, and I really don't have any business screwing with the truck right now! Although I've got a complete shop, all my stuff in storage until I get my new shop built... that's why I don't want to mess with a clutch right now, I would have to dig my trans jack, tools, etc. out of storage. I could use my buddies shop, but the timing is just not good right now to tackle a clutch. I'm hoping to be able to hold off awhile on the exhaust for the same reason. I believe I can find an hour or two to install some injectors though!



Anyone out there with an EZ/DD2 (or hotter) equipped ETH still on their OEM clutch?
 
Thanks for that detailed splanation Don! Now I am stuck on which ones to buy again since I do a lot of in town driving and care very much about mileage. I spend a lot of money on fuel, and right now I get 14. 5 or so. If I lost two more mpg I would go out of my mind.
 
After you asked about mileage I got to thinking today... With the 370's and mostly highway driving I went 501 miles on a tank of fuel. I filled it up today with 31 gallons.

The math says 16 MPG. Not bad considering I drove it hard alot and raced a guy twice.

Oh, and my little trip to the drag strip last Thursay was on that tank too. 5 seperate 1/8 mile passes at full blast.



I usually go further.



Don~
 
dd 111's installed

As you can see from my sig. I havn't updated my turbo yet. I just installed the dd111's last week & have pretty much flagged my rear tires for tuning & testing of other sorts. These injectors run Very smooth & make as much power/torque as my "Super Hot Comp Box" does by itself. Have a deal going w/ DTT on a new turbo---"next step , Just waiting. Oh' by the way----what will it take boys to get Bill K . back in this forrum?????????????? Think It's time... ... ----Proflow
 
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