Don't Tow With A Half Ton

[AClayton]

And those are the exact drivers we are referring to in our posts. The guys that should know better,don't!!



Alan

 

[Grizzly]

I'm sure glad I don't have a dog in this fight!

 

[JDiepstra]

HBarlow please allow me to repsectfully point out that become a guest writer or whatever you are has really gone to your head. I used to enjoy your posts. I took a break from TDR1.com (still love the magazine) and have been posting on another site more frequently for quite a while. Now I come back on and find you a totally different person.



I must say I pretty much agree with Gary on this one. There are way too many people towing way beyond their own, and their vehicles capablities. Just cause one person can do one thing, doesn't mean another person can do the same thing just as well. And who really gives a care what anyone from the DMV, DOT, or some legislator says is OK or not. They are pretty much all full of hot air and as clueless about towing big as the guy in a Prius.

 

[HBarlow]

HBarlow please allow me to repsectfully point out that become a guest writer or whatever you are has really gone to your head. I used to enjoy your posts. I took a break from TDR1.com (still love the magazine) and have been posting on another site more frequently for quite a while. Now I come back on and find you a totally different person.

I must say I pretty much agree with Gary on this one. There are way too many people towing way beyond their own, and their vehicles capablities. Just cause one person can do one thing, doesn't mean another person can do the same thing just as well. And who really gives a care what anyone from the DMV, DOT, or some legislator says is OK or not. They are pretty much all full of hot air and as clueless about towing big as the guy in a Prius.

Guest writer? What are you talking about?

Gary's basic approach, whether in another related thread or other arguments is always that legislation should restrict the behaviors he doesn't approve of or participate in. I strongly disagree with Gary whether it is truck/trailer weights, commidity "speculators", or government regulation of the prices of gasoline and diesel fuel

My position is we already have more than adequate laws in effect that do regulate truck and trailer weights. I do not believe in giving up my freedoms in the form or more driver's testing, more inspections, more laws, or more taxes because a handful of people turn their light duty usually 1/2 ton trucks and travel trailers over on their sides. There may be a rare injury or even death that results from such accidents but I do not know of a single one.

What the DMV and DOT do is based on what the legislature of their respective states says is OK. That matters in a huge way to anyone who owns and tows a large fifth wheel or gooseneck travel trailer including hundreds, possibly thousands of fulltimers who live and travel in theirs.

If you agree with Gary that is your right. I do not.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

It takes a big man to publicly admit to a mistake in judgement and behavior, and apologize for it to all involved.



Harvey clearly is NOT that man...

 

[HBarlow]

Apologize... ... . for what? For pointing out your usual hypocrisy? Nahh, I don't think so.

 

[domehead]

Towing beyond your truck limits

First I would like to say that if you tow beyond the rated limits on your truck you are not just putting your life in damager but you may kill another adult but kids also.



Is it worth a life to brag how much you can tow no matter what size truck or suv that you have.



I have seen small lawn mower trailers take large SUV's for a ride when they are not loaded correctly with just a lawn mower on them.



If you are over weight you will not beable to stop your rig in the correct distance or it could get even worse.



Please be safe when you tow my family and others are on the road with you.



If it would save one life I would not mind stopping at the weigh stations to keep people safe.



Have I towed over the weight limit before yes and I have learned a lesson. I am just passing along some sound advice and think HK is trying to do the same.

 

[GAmes]

First I would like to say that if you tow beyond the rated limits on your truck you are not just putting your life in damager but you may kill another adult but kids also.

I sure don't want to do that, so exactly what limits am I supposed to not exceed. The listed axle limits on my door jamb are shown with D load range tires. I have E rated tires. What are the axle load limits now? My 10,000 lb TT tow rating was with a receiver rated for 10,000 lbs. Imagine that Now I have a receiver rated for 15,000, what is my TT tow rating? I have a gooseneck ball rated for 25,000 lbs, is that my gooseneck tow rating or is it the same as my 16,000 lb rated 5er hitch? Please answer soon. We are hooking up the 13,000 pound RV that has a GVWR of 13, 780 based on load range E tires. It has G rated tires now. BTW, none of the 10 tires is carrying more than the rated weight, the only component the REAL weight police, to my knowledge, care about.

 

[domehead]

I sure don't want to do that, so exactly what limits am I supposed to not exceed. The listed axle limits on my door jamb are shown with D load range tires. I have E rated tires. What are the axle load limits now? My 10,000 lb TT tow rating was with a receiver rated for 10,000 lbs. Imagine that Now I have a receiver rated for 15,000, what is my TT tow rating? I have a gooseneck ball rated for 25,000 lbs, is that my gooseneck tow rating or is it the same as my 16,000 lb rated 5er hitch? Please answer soon. We are hooking up the 13,000 pound RV that has a GVWR of 13, 780 based on load range E tires. It has G rated tires now. BTW, none of the 10 tires is carrying more than the rated weight, the only component the REAL weight police, to my knowledge, care about.

Sounds like you need to take course on towing that should help you answer some of those tricky questions you

 

[GAmes]

Sounds like you need to take course on towing that should help you answer some of those tricky questions you

Guess you don't know either. :-laf

 

[JDiepstra]

I sure don't want to do that, so exactly what limits am I supposed to not exceed. The listed axle limits on my door jamb are shown with D load range tires. I have E rated tires. What are the axle load limits now? My 10,000 lb TT tow rating was with a receiver rated for 10,000 lbs. Imagine that Now I have a receiver rated for 15,000, what is my TT tow rating? I have a gooseneck ball rated for 25,000 lbs, is that my gooseneck tow rating or is it the same as my 16,000 lb rated 5er hitch? Please answer soon. We are hooking up the 13,000 pound RV that has a GVWR of 13, 780 based on load range E tires. It has G rated tires now. BTW, none of the 10 tires is carrying more than the rated weight, the only component the REAL weight police, to my knowledge, care about.

OK you have beefed up your tires and hitches... ... . Now, what about your rims? You can upgrade your tires all day but that doesn't increase your rims load limit. What about the lugs that hold the rims? What about your brakes capablity to stop and stay cool during accident avoidance or a long decent? What are they rated to? And your suspension, including springs, shocks, and coils, and the bolts that hold them together? What if you break a spring? What about your steering linkage? Is it designed to turn the vehicle quickly to avoid an accident when it is "overloaded"? How about your cooling systems? There are SEVERAL components considered when deciding if you are towing safely, not just tires and hitch.



Oh, and my truck and every other Dodge Cummins that I know of came with E rated tires and that's what is says on the door. I don't know about your truck though, to be fair.



Also, are you really going to base the safety of everyone upon what the "real weight police" say is ok? All they are are trained monkeys enforcing laws, made by people who have no idea what they are talking about, designed to generate revenue.



On edit: this is by no means an attack. Consider it a conversation and nothing personal. Thanks.

 

[DonTX]

I used to be a "weights and registration" cop for the state of KS. I agree, we knew NOTHING about safe weights, only what you were LEGALLY allowed on our roads, with revenue from registration first in mind. In fact, back in those days, we actually were Dept of Revenue cops, that was the patch on our shoulders.

That said, I think GAmes question was very valid. I seriously doubt that all the little stuff goes into a weight rating on a sticker. In fact, back in the CDL days, many vehicles were downgraded to a GVWR of 26,000 simply for license requirements of the owners, had nothing to do with tires, springs, bolts, etc. If anyone has a checklist of what each weight rating requires in terms of bolts, tires, etc, etc, please share it with the rest of us. I feel perfectly safe and content in increasing our GVWR by upgrading our vehicles. Not allowed by the law, sure, but the sticker has not saved anybody from a collision.

Your comment on wheel capacity was very valid for instance.

 

[jelag]

For years we've towed a 22K lb work trailer with first a F250 and now with a 04 Dually... .

That trailer has hydraulic disc brakes and I guess we've towed it close to 400K miles... over the years...

I have a few fears when we tow it... . 1 - that some fool will pull in front of our driver and stop fast... thus causing us to rear end him... . 2 - some slick road some night will allow it to get out of control... we travel the pacific northwest in the ice and snow in the winter...

Since we have a DOT number on the truck, we've got to chain as posted... .

I don't fear the truck or the trailer as we meet all DOT codes and have been inspected more times than I can count, and both get an annual inspection... . we have the right plates, licenses and Class A drivers license to do the job... .

My fears are around the other guy who doesn't understand the position he's put a truck and trailer in... . in heavy traffic... . One of the things I do see is signs in some states warning drivers of cars to give trucks the proper clearance when passing... .

In addition I own a 5er that we've traveled in over the past 10 years... . and I can't begin to tell you how many times that I've seen drivers with trailers who need more training... . They don't understand turning corners and how to keep the trailer tires off he curb and from hitting stop signs and they sure don't know how to back in. .

In BC Canada, they do have laws and the selling dealer won't let you drive off the lot with a 5er if you don't have the correct endorsement on your license... . so at least in BC you have to take a course, pass a test to drive a light truck with your trailer...

I DO AGREE that current laws need to be enforced... . BUT I also believe that drivers of combined vehicles over 15K lbs need and endorsement (read this as training and passing a test) before they tow...

There's a patch of road in Utah that every time I drive it in the winter there is at least 4-6 slide offs and accidents... you sort of crest the hill, head back down in the shade and at the right time the road surfaces freezes... I've often had vehicles pass me on the flats just to see them 20 minutes later in the center of the road slid off because of their foolishness... . most of these are light trucks with trailers or motor homes... .

I guess my point is I see the other driver as a threat to my safety... I'm not a kid anymore... and drive slower (speed limit) and I think safer...

 

[GAmes]

OK you have beefed up your tires and hitches... ... . Now, what about your rims? You can upgrade your tires all day but that doesn't increase your rims load limit. What about the lugs that hold the rims? What about your brakes capablity to stop and stay cool during accident avoidance or a long decent? What are they rated to? And your suspension, including springs, shocks, and coils, and the bolts that hold them together? What if you break a spring? What about your steering linkage? Is it designed to turn the vehicle quickly to avoid an accident when it is "overloaded"? How about your cooling systems? There are SEVERAL components considered when deciding if you are towing safely, not just tires and hitch.



Oh, and my truck and every other Dodge Cummins that I know of came with E rated tires and that's what is says on the door. I don't know about your truck though, to be fair.



Also, are you really going to base the safety of everyone upon what the "real weight police" say is ok? All they are are trained monkeys enforcing laws, made by people who have no idea what they are talking about, designed to generate revenue.



On edit: this is by no means an attack. Consider it a conversation and nothing personal. Thanks.

You illustrate my point very well. What limits am I to worry about, and as DonTX said, where do I find them? Just what is the weak link in the whole GVWR and tow ratings formula? I don't worry about heated brakes after a long decent, I have an exhaust brake. What is "overloaded"? Have I reached the overloaded state if my fan clutch engages?



I take offense that weight enforcement LEOs are "trained monkeys" unless you believe all of us are "trained monkeys" who are professionals at whatever we do.



Aren't all forums a conversation?

 

[kenny61]

mine is at 8800 only due to the fact i got the 3. 54 gears instead of 4. 10

 

[DonTX]

This illustrates my point exactly. I have also noticed a difference between an automatic and a stick GVWR. Has NOTHING to do with safety.

 

[HBarlow]

mine is at 8800 only due to the fact i got the 3. 54 gears instead of 4. 10

Kenny,

Are you sure about that? That doesn't sound right. Is your truck a 2500? All Dodge 2500s I ever heard of were assigned a GVWR of somewhere between 8,800 and 9,900 lbs. US DOT standards state that a Glass II truck, which is a 2500, has a GVWR under 10k lbs.

All 3500 duallies I ever heard of have a GVWR at or above 10,500 lbs. A 2500 dually is a Class III truck and can have a GVWR in the range of 10k to 13,000 lbs approximately.

Differential gears do not effect GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) but do have an effect on the manufacturer's assigned GCWR (gross combined weight rating) because GCWR is about driveline endurance and performance.

My '01 Ram 3500 HO/six speed had 3. 54 gears and a GVWR of 10,500 lbs. The 3. 54 gears limited its gross combined rating to 20,000 lbs. while the 4. 10 equipped trucks got a 22,000 combined weight rating. I found the factory combined rating made good sense, not from a handling, stopping, or safety standpoint but from the perspective of the truck's ability to get the load rolling on a steep grade. I ordered the truck to pull an 8,500 lb. Airstream and it was a great combo geared that way. I was under 20k lbs. and had all the power I needed and great highway acceleration and top speed. Later, I bought a used Travel Supreme fifth wheel that weighed 14,500 lbs. The truck could handle the load just as well but it grunted and strained getting it rolling.

My two subsequent Dodge Ram duallies have been ordered w/4. 10 gears based on that experience.

 

[JDiepstra]

You illustrate my point very well. What limits am I to worry about, and as DonTX said, where do I find them? Just what is the weak link in the whole GVWR and tow ratings formula? I don't worry about heated brakes after a long decent, I have an exhaust brake. What is "overloaded"? Have I reached the overloaded state if my fan clutch engages?



I take offense that weight enforcement LEOs are "trained monkeys" unless you believe all of us are "trained monkeys" who are professionals at whatever we do.



Aren't all forums a conversation?

It seems like what you are saying is you don't know the limits of the vehicle or its parts, or where to find them, so you figure you will just beef up a couple things and hope that covers it.



There is a difference between being a trained monkey doing a job, and a professional who knows what they are doing and why.

 

[HBarlow]

This illustrates my point exactly. I have also noticed a difference between an automatic and a stick GVWR. Has NOTHING to do with safety.

GVWR does not change with transmissions or rear end ratios but GCWR does.

GVWR is the truck's weight CARRYING CAPACITY. Exceeding the truck's GVWR can have a significant effect on safety. Overloading the axles or tires is what we're talking about and it does definitely create a safety issue.

On the other hand, the manufacturer's gross combined weight rating (GCWR) has little effect on truck safety as long as the tow vehicle's individual axle ratings, tire ratings, and GVWR are not exceeded.

This is the argument that Gary Ames and I have been making here for a week or two.

Exceeding the truck's GCWR creates additional stresses on the driveline. That's not a safety issue. Overloading the tires is.

 

[HBarlow]

It seems like what you are saying is you don't know the limits of the vehicle or its parts, or where to find them, so you figure you will just beef up a couple things and hope that covers it.

There is a difference between being a trained monkey doing a job, and a professional who knows what they are doing and why.

No, what he's saying is he doesn't exceed the original manufacturer's GVWR or GAWRs but he has beefed up several components beyond the OEM ratings which provide even greater safety margins.


Gary has been hauling commercially for a number of years. He knows very well what the OEM factory ratings of his truck are and knows he must comply with them because he is subject to DOT inspections everytime he tows.

You are making a ficticious argument that you can't back up with fact. Exceeding OEM combined weights, whatever they are, don't mean squat.