Don't Tow With A Half Ton

[kenny61]

Harvey i bought the truck in 96 and am only going from what I remember. I have the original sales flyer for the truck at home so I will check later. The GVWR on the door sticker is 8800 even though the combined axle weights are around 11,000 lbs There is no GCWR listed on the sticker. However when I get my brake parts and other gvwr related items they are all the 10k plus parts. From what I remember when i bought the truck the towing capacity, which is where we might be getting confused, was less on my truck due to the gearing the 4. 10 trucks were rated at a higher capacity. If I get some time off of work and can dig out the brochure I will let you know what it says.



On Edit:



From doing some googling it seems all CTD 2500's had a GVWR of 8800 with the gearing being the difference for tow weights, but isn't that what we were talking about? Towing capacity?



Also since the GVWR isn't listed how would the cops or DOT know if you were overloaded if they stopped you?

 

[JDiepstra]

No, what he's saying is he doesn't exceed the original manufacturer's GVWR or GAWRs but he has beefed up several components beyond the OEM ratings which provide even greater safety margins.





Gary has been hauling commercially for a number of years. He knows very well what the OEM factory ratings of his truck are and knows he must comply with them because he is subject to DOT inspections everytime he tows.



You are making a ficticious argument that you can't back up with fact. Exceeding OEM combined weights, whatever they are, don't mean squat.

Is this the fact for everyone, or just people who are totally awesome?

 

[HBarlow]

Harvey i bought the truck in 96 and am only going from what I remember. I have the original sales flyer for the truck at home so I will check later. The GVWR on the door sticker is 8800 even though the combined axle weights are around 11,000 lbs There is no GCWR listed on the sticker. However when I get my brake parts and other gvwr related items they are all the 10k plus parts. From what I remember when i bought the truck the towing capacity, which is where we might be getting confused, was less on my truck due to the gearing the 4. 10 trucks were rated at a higher capacity. If I get some time off of work and can dig out the brochure I will let you know what it says.

On Edit:

From doing some googling it seems all CTD 2500's had a GVWR of 8800 with the gearing being the difference for tow weights, but isn't that what we were talking about? Towing capacity?

Also since the GVWR isn't listed how would the cops or DOT know if you were overloaded if they stopped you?

Kenny,

Your truck is a Ram 2500 with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of 8,800 lbs. That weight is standard for all Ram 2500s of that year (and several years) regardless of differential gears or transmission choice. GVWR is usually not the sum of both axle weight ratings but is a more conservative figure based on brakes and other factors. It is visible to DOT officers and they often look at it. Your VIN tag has three weights printed on it. Front gross axle weight rating, rear axle weight rating, and gross vehicle weight rating. Those numbers are enforced.

The argument GAmes and I are making is those numbers and tire capacity numbers are enforced by DOT and do matter.

Gross combined weight ratings which are established by the manufacturer to limit the combined weights of truck and trailer are not printed on the truck, are not available to DOT officers, and are not enforced. In other words, DOT cops don't give a damn how much weight our cooling system can handle on a hot August day traveling up the grade from Los Angeles to Las Vegas heavily loaded or how much weight our clutches and transmissions can handle pulling a load up a boat ramp.

DOT cops care about overloaded suspension (in excess of GAWRs and GVWRs) as well as tire ratings which are molded on the sidewall of every tire.

 

[HBarlow]

Is this the fact for everyone, or just people who are totally awesome?

Quote, JDiepstra earlier today: "this is by no means an attack. Consider it a conversation and nothing personal. Thanks. "

I guess it wasn't just a conversation, huhh?

When you have no facts to back your bogus argument and no personal knowledge or experience towing I guess you don't have much left but a personal attack.

Thanks for the compliment though. Wow, I hadn't realized you consider me "awesome. " Does that mean you're going to start a fan club to collect my TDR posts? Maybe a special website just for me. Wow. I'm really proud.

 

[DonTX]

I stand corrected, you are correct, it is the gross combined weight rating that changes with transmission choice, not the GVWR.

GVWR does not change with transmissions or rear end ratios but GCWR does.



GVWR is the truck's weight CARRYING CAPACITY. Exceeding the truck's GVWR can have a significant effect on safety. Overloading the axles or tires is what we're talking about and it does definitely create a safety issue.



On the other hand, the manufacturer's gross combined weight rating (GCWR) has little effect on truck safety as long as the tow vehicle's individual axle ratings, tire ratings, and GVWR are not exceeded.



This is the argument that Gary Ames and I have been making here for a week or two.



Exceeding the truck's GCWR creates additional stresses on the driveline. That's not a safety issue. Overloading the tires is.

 

[JDiepstra]

Quote, JDiepstra earlier today: "this is by no means an attack. Consider it a conversation and nothing personal. Thanks. "



I guess it wasn't just a conversation, huhh?



When you have no facts to back your bogus argument and no personal knowledge or experience towing I guess you don't have much left but a personal attack.



Thanks for the compliment though. Wow, I hadn't realized you consider me "awesome. " Does that mean you're going to start a fan club to collect my TDR posts? Maybe a special website just for me. Wow. I'm really proud.

I did not realize being totally awesome was a bad thing.



What makes you think I have no personal knowledge or experience towing?



A website just for you would be "special", that's for sure!



And you didn't answer my question. Does your previous comment "Exceeding OEM combined weights, whatever they are, don't mean squat" apply to everyone, or just those who decide for themself that the limits set forth by the manufacturer are beneath them?

 

[HBarlow]

It's easy to confuse the letter designations.

Just for fun, there's another little bit of info we haven't tossed into this mix yet.

Dodge Ram 2500s and Ram 3500s, whether SRW or DRW, usually have the same gross combined weight ratings. In other words, a "3/4 ton" can usually pull as much combined weight as a "one ton" dually of the same year if both trucks have the same transmission and differential gears but can't haul as much weight on the truck.

 

[HBarlow]

I did not realize being totally awesome was a bad thing.

What makes you think I have no personal knowledge or experience towing?

A website just for you would be "special", that's for sure!

And you didn't answer my question. Does your previous comment "Exceeding OEM combined weights, whatever they are, don't mean squat" apply to everyone, or just those who decide for themself that the limits set forth by the manufacturer are beneath them?

I think you don't have any experience towing or knowledge of towing because you haven't exhibited any here in this discussion. Please forgive me if I am mistaken.

The answer to your silly question which is based upon a false and unsupportable premise is that anyone can exceed the bogus and non-existent weight limits that apparently exist only in your mind and which you have not provided as a point to base your argument on or provided a reference to where they are listed.

I, on the other hand, have not and do not exceed nor recommend that anyone else exceed the manufacturer's weight limits which are printed on the inside door frame of every Dodge Ram truck and other trucks by law.

Those weight limits are the front gross axle weight rating, the rear gross axle weight rating, and the truck's total gross vehicle weight rating.

I also would absolutely never exceed or recommend that anyone exceed the maximum capacity of each tire which is molded into the sidewall of every tire which is also enforced, for good reason, by DOT officers.

I have been subjected to a number of DOT inspections at state ports of entry and have never had a weight violation. I've also crossed state weight scales heavily loaded on more occasions than I can remember without being in violation of the law or DOT regulations.

Many of the times I have been inspected or have been weighed on DOT scales I was grossing 26,000 to 28,000 lbs. , possibly as much as 30,000 lbs.

It's truly a pleasure having this pleasant discussion with you. It makes me feel "awesome" knowing that I am increasing your knowlege and level of understanding.

 

[Bob Cochran]

Reading this with great interest. With the barbs going back and forth I don't think one question asked has been answered. Changing the tire from a D to E or even G does not change the door label weight rating(maybe I missed it). The change certainly can make you feel better though.

Total Combined Vehicle weight while not enforced should be of concern for a person individually. I worry about getting this thing stopped when somebody pulls out of a side road in front of me!!! The sight of frightened kids staring out the side window when they get T-bone is a nightmare; they cannot help the intelligence of their parents. Of course there is the matter of trailer stability for myself, grand kids, others on the road in evasive emergency maneuvers.

Of course being below weight could all still happen but in total I think you are safer adhering to the OEM posted weights where ever they my be post!!! Changing things like tires, shocks, anti-sway bars, etc. while making one feel more comfortable and all helps for sure but does not change the weight ratings. Sure going to lower rear end gears means you can get a heavier load going but does squat to stop it.

Remember we are here to help others who may have less experience whenever we can. Sometimes we post something because it is our experience and understanding. Later someone with more experience and better knowledge corrects me. I take this as a positive learning experience and now I have more knowledge than I did before. When barbs start flying sometimes we forget the person original questions and they do not get the help they need; gets lost in the smoke. Maybe we need a forum so some who seem to always argue can go there and vent not confusing the person originally asking a question.

Lets see one person posts an answer. Another corrects then when the smoke starts to to the "vent" forum. Gosh that will be on hot forum!!!! By the way this is not personal just a general observation by some on TDR and on occasion I have been tempted to join in tell I remember why we are here.

 

[jjdiesel]

Nice comment Bob... . thank you.

 

[HBarlow]

... ... ... ... . Changing the tire from a D to E or even G does not change the door label weight rating(maybe I missed it). The change certainly can make you feel better though. .

I don't know that anyone has asked a question. I started this thread with a news article and comment that 1/2 ton pickups with passenger car tires and soft springs shouldn't be used to tow long and heavy trailers. It became an argument that towing at weights that exceed the manufacturer's GCWR is dangerous. I disagree and my position is supported by DOT regulations. So far, no one has offered any evidence that supports that premise beyond "I don't think it is safe. "

Nobody has claimed that increasing tire capacity changes the OEM weight rating. Stronger tires do, however, improve the safety margin.

Total Combined Vehicle weight while not enforced should be of concern for a person individually. I worry about getting this thing stopped when somebody pulls out of a side road in front of me!!! The sight of frightened kids staring out the side window when they get T-bone is a nightmare; they cannot help the intelligence of their parents. Of course there is the matter of trailer stability for myself, grand kids, others on the road in evasive emergency maneuvers. .

That is simply a matter of personal opinion.

Of course being below weight could all still happen but in total I think you are safer adhering to the OEM posted weights where ever they my be post!!! Changing things like tires, shocks, anti-sway bars, etc. while making one feel more comfortable and all helps for sure but does not change the weight ratings. Sure going to lower rear end gears means you can get a heavier load going but does squat to stop it. .

Most light trucks have two weight ratings. One set of ratings specifies carried load limits and those weights are mandated by law to be posted on the truck's VIN sticker and displayed on the door post. These weight limits are important and are enforced by law. Exceeding these weights can cause rim or tire failure.

The other weight is a maximum combined weight. It is not posted on the truck, is not mandated by law, and is not enforced. It is used by manufacturers to limit overstressing driveline and engine cooling components. Exceeding this weight can result in possible overheating or driveline failure.

A few of you, many who have never pulled a heavy trailer, consider it unsafe to do so. I've done it many times and do not. I have DOT regulations on my side. It is legal to tow commercially in all states if it is permitted in the driver's state with his ordinary driver's license up to gross combined weight or rated weight of 26,000 lbs. with a light truck as long as axle and vehicle weights are not exceeded. It is legal to tow beyond 26,000 lbs. as long as axle and vehicle rated weights are not exceed if the operator has a commercial license. Some do not approve. That is their right. Some feel that private owners who pull large fifth wheel travel trailers should be subjected to additonal testing and licensing. I do not. I do not want additional laws and law enforcement or restrictions on the rights and freedom of ordinary Americans.

 

[GaryOwen]

Okay, here's a couple of questions.



1) How do we know the pickup in the original post was a half ton? It only mentioned it was a Chevy Silverado. Silverado's were available in 1500, 2500, and 3500.



2) How do we know the truck was overloaded? No where did it say the truck was LEGALLY overloaded. Just a HP reminding everyone to tow with a vehicle of adequate size.



3) From what I know, Harvey is right about DOT weight enforcement. He is also right about GCVWR engine and drivetrain design limitations. However, design of the brake system is also based on the GCVWR. Now, as far as I know, DOT doesn't enforce GCVWR (except for one unconfirmed instance in Nevada in another forum). But, what about civil liabilities? I personally can't risk financial disaster from exceeding the GCVWR. So how do we protect ourselves from the ambulance chasers?



Okay, that was three questions instead of a couple - I beg your forgiveness. :-laf

 

[domehead]

Questions

There has been multiple questions ask as this thread has gone on. Some of the questions were bait questions on weight hitches etc.



Others have been very valid questions based mod's or tires.

 

[AClayton]

This issue can get old quickly if we all don't grasp the concept that what Harvey and GAmes are saying is simply this..... DOT regulations are centered around axle and tire ratings. If these drivers have DOT numbers and have gone through all of the weigh stations without a problem;it stands to reason that that they DO know the law and know what they and their trucks are capable of. The numbers in our manuals are for reference and should be our guidelines for what we load our trucks or tow. If you are a professional driver,well you know the laws, and can load or tow more than what Dodge or Ford or Chevy states and can do it legally..... provided the restrictions are met. Restrictions in this case seem to be tire and axle rating.



A Homeowner can build a shed in his backyard..... But a hired PRO Carpenter can do it faster and more efficiently because he knows how to get the permits and he knows all of the laws and he has the tools to perform his job safely!!What is the difference between my analogy and what GAmes and HB are saying?



Alan

 

[HBarlow]

1) How do we know the pickup in the original post was a half ton? It only mentioned it was a Chevy Silverado. Silverado's were available in 1500, 2500, and 3500.

We don't with certainty but I believe it was a reasonable assumption to make. Use of ordinary 1/2 ton pickups as part-time pullers of conventional travel trailers is fairly common across the south. If the truck had been adequate for the trailer, ie a 2500 or 3500/dually, would the LA HP issue that caution comment? I don't think so.

The fact that a citation was not issued indicates the truck was probably not overloaded but was inadequate for towing.

What is your point?

My point was it is a bad idea to tow a large travel trailer with a 1/2 ton pickup due to soft springs and soft sidewalls in passenger car tires. Do you disagree with that? Do you think it is acceptable?

2) How do we know the truck was overloaded? No where did it say the truck was LEGALLY overloaded. Just a HP reminding everyone to tow with a vehicle of adequate size.

Same answer. I don't think the truck was overloaded, I think it was inadequate for towing.

3) From what I know, Harvey is right about DOT weight enforcement. He is also right about GCVWR engine and drivetrain design limitations. However, design of the brake system is also based on the GCVWR.

No it is not. It is expected and required by law that all but tiny little 1500 lb. trailers will have separate trailer brakes. The size and requirement varies slightly among states. No one, not the truck manufacturer, the trailer manufacturer, DOT rules, or drivers expect the truck to stop a large trailer w/o brakes. It is illegal to tow a trailer without separate trailer brakes above certain minimum weights (like 1500 lbs. ) in every state. DOT rules specifically address trailer brakes including light trucks used for towing trailers.

This legal limit means that the tow vehicle cannot and is not expected to provide stopping power for the combined weight anymore than an OTR tractor is limited to its GVWR. An OTR truck has two different rated weights just like our dually pickups. An OTR truck has a GVWR which is about 50,000 lbs. (based on tires and axles) but it can tow a gross combined weight of up to 80,000 lbs. , up to more than 100k lbs. when specially permitted. An OTR tractor cannot stop 80k or 100k loads w/o trailer brakes anymore than a dually pickup can stop 24k or 28k lbs. w/o trailer brakes.

But, what about civil liabilities? I personally can't risk financial disaster from exceeding the GCVWR. So how do we protect ourselves from the ambulance chasers?

Why do you assume that if someone has an accident while pulling a trailer that does not exceed any legal weights on the truck or the trailer, is legally registered, and legal to tow with the driver's license possessed by the driver, and legal to tow in the state where the accident occurs, that that driver is subject to civil liability? That assumption is based on the old phony weight police argument of the internet. I know of no example of such laws in existence and no examples of anyone ever losing a lawsuit over such an issue. Do you?

No one can be absolutely certain that he or she will not be sued by some loser wanting something for nothing who finds an ambulance chaser to take his case. It occurs in courtroom all over the country every week. Nobody is safe from ambulance chasers and those who seek to extort money from others via the courts. That is the reason that many of us have been in favor of tort reform for years.

But that is the reason why we have insurance. If I am involved in an acccident my insurance company will defend me. The insurance company would hire a good attorney who would subpoena witnesses such as experienced and credible DOT officers who would testify in court that it is perfectly legal to tow up to the limits of the truck which are posted on the VIN sticker and on the registation. If it were a potentially large lawsuit the attorney would also subpoena manufacturer's engineers to testify about the way weight limits are determined.

 

[Bob Cochran]

There has been multiple questions ask as this thread has gone on. Some of the questions were bait questions on weight hitches etc.



Others have been very valid questions based mod's or tires.

Bait question detract from the character of the individual posting them. Some of these I am going to take the high road here are from someone that legitimately wanting to get an answer. I wish there was a way to ban someone who continually asks bait questions. I don't think there is a way though and it is a shame.



These kinds of things that develop into flame sessions by one or more individuals detract from the professionalism we all should strive for here at TDR.



Ok off high horse. HBarlow I will in the future refrain from responding to any of your posts in the future. When I figure out how; will block you posts as others have indicated. It is a shame you are an extremely knowledgeable and will miss your posts.