Yep, you're telling them like it is. I've had many arguments with wannabe haulers here on TDR who think they can abuse the system and fool law enforcement with some bs story but as you've explained, getting caught can be very expensive.
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Yep, you're telling them like it is. I've had many arguments with wannabe haulers here on TDR who think they can abuse the system and fool law enforcement with some bs story but as you've explained, getting caught can be very expensive.
GAmes
TDR MEMBER
I think Harvey missed this one. Yes, transporters fall under DOT regs. He had/has a CDL but not because it is required to transport all RVs. However, as he explained, if the GVWR of the pickup plus the GVWR of the trailer adds up to 26,001 or more a CDL A is required. I have been doing it for almost 8 years without a CDL. I just don't hook up to trailers with a GVWR over 15,500. The big trailers don't pay more and it keeps the wear and tear down on my truck.
Thanks for all the replies. Bob is not trying to beat the system or make a profit; I hope that is not how it came across. Bob wants to work within the rules, be safe and minimize hassle.
Bob wanted to know what he can legally do and when the onerous and costly regulations kick in. Bob never gave it much thought in the past and kind of assumed that if it didn't require a CDL then it was not regulated.
It is clear that if the GVWR or GCWR exceed 10,001 lbs the regulations apply. Under 10K is not so clear. According to a representative at Michigan’s trucking safety organization Michigan Center for Truck Safety Home Page the only regulation in Michigan for vehicles or combinations under 10K is the name on the door (which can be a removable magnetic sign). If the vehicle or combination is under 5K then it is not regulated at all.
What other options are there for relatively light but awkward size freight where a low flat bed is the best way to ship? Are there legitimate hot shotters with flatbeds for freight?
Undoubtedly true, as long as the business would use the truck enough to justify all the costs, which in this case it won’t. Maybe down the road as the business grows….BHarlow said:
Bob wanted to know what he can legally do and when the onerous and costly regulations kick in. Bob never gave it much thought in the past and kind of assumed that if it didn't require a CDL then it was not regulated.
It is clear that if the GVWR or GCWR exceed 10,001 lbs the regulations apply. Under 10K is not so clear. According to a representative at Michigan’s trucking safety organization Michigan Center for Truck Safety Home Page the only regulation in Michigan for vehicles or combinations under 10K is the name on the door (which can be a removable magnetic sign). If the vehicle or combination is under 5K then it is not regulated at all.
What other options are there for relatively light but awkward size freight where a low flat bed is the best way to ship? Are there legitimate hot shotters with flatbeds for freight?
There probably are a few "legitimate" small hot shot haulers with dually trucks and flatbed trailers but most are more likely to be one truck operators who operate on the fringe of the law because of the economic factors.
There are lots of those guys around but they are not nationally known companies with websites and toll free phone number. There have always been one or two on TDR. Many of them are good guys, basically honest men, trying to make a living. They may have been out of work and needed income or perhaps have commercial truck driving experience but grew tired of working for one of the big national trucking companies and went on their own with a small truck and trailer. Most will get the job done for you but if a significant damage or loss of valuable cargo should occur and they have cargo insurance at all, it might be a no-name company with a very high deductible. Those policies typically have a $1000 or $1500 deductible and the owner/operator you hired probably doesn't have that amount. Most of them are struggling just to keep tires on their rigs, fuel in their tanks, required maintenance done, and get to the next load.
Less Than TruckLoad (LTL) shippers would usually be a smarter choice. They are big national companies who consolidate small loads to make a normal load on a big truck.
Every one wants to save a few bucks but transportation costs are a necessary cost of doing business and are a legitimate tax deduction for the company. Waiting for a scheduled pickup or delivery that never occurs or losing a shipment in transit to a fly by night operator is costly also.
UShip has a website for small loads. UShip is nothing more than a load broker. Independent owner/operators bid on hauls through UShip. A UShip driver could be someone you know on TDR, just a guy with a truck and trailer. He may or may not be legitimate, may or may not be skilled, may or may not have insurance, may or may not be trustworthy and reliable.
There are lots of those guys around but they are not nationally known companies with websites and toll free phone number. There have always been one or two on TDR. Many of them are good guys, basically honest men, trying to make a living. They may have been out of work and needed income or perhaps have commercial truck driving experience but grew tired of working for one of the big national trucking companies and went on their own with a small truck and trailer. Most will get the job done for you but if a significant damage or loss of valuable cargo should occur and they have cargo insurance at all, it might be a no-name company with a very high deductible. Those policies typically have a $1000 or $1500 deductible and the owner/operator you hired probably doesn't have that amount. Most of them are struggling just to keep tires on their rigs, fuel in their tanks, required maintenance done, and get to the next load.
Less Than TruckLoad (LTL) shippers would usually be a smarter choice. They are big national companies who consolidate small loads to make a normal load on a big truck.
Every one wants to save a few bucks but transportation costs are a necessary cost of doing business and are a legitimate tax deduction for the company. Waiting for a scheduled pickup or delivery that never occurs or losing a shipment in transit to a fly by night operator is costly also.
UShip has a website for small loads. UShip is nothing more than a load broker. Independent owner/operators bid on hauls through UShip. A UShip driver could be someone you know on TDR, just a guy with a truck and trailer. He may or may not be legitimate, may or may not be skilled, may or may not have insurance, may or may not be trustworthy and reliable.
NIsaacs
TDR MEMBER
Harvey has posted some excellent info on this thread as he always does with this type of question.
I would think Bob should maybe think about getting more compliant and continue with hauling this specialized equipment. He knows the shippers, receivers and the equipment itself. He also obviously has the right hauling equipment. Since he is doing the owners/receivers a very big favor, maybe they can help with some of the cost, it would be to their benefit.
Nick
I would think Bob should maybe think about getting more compliant and continue with hauling this specialized equipment. He knows the shippers, receivers and the equipment itself. He also obviously has the right hauling equipment. Since he is doing the owners/receivers a very big favor, maybe they can help with some of the cost, it would be to their benefit.
Nick
I think there are more than a few legitamate hot-shot haulers. A person would be surprised if he didn't know the requirements to book a load through a broker and actually get the job done. You can't just make a phone call and they tell you to go get it. People or company's that need freight moved are not going to let "bob" on the place much less haul something for them.
How true!
In the past, farmers have been "mostly" regulated as private people, except with real big trucks.
However, I have been notified that if I cross a state line with a diesel pickup, with ANYTHING of a farm nature in it, even just some tools, that I need a fuel use tax permit, and that I need a DOT number, etc.
I have those in my trucking business, but now the farm pickup and trailer fall under that too.
So, any diesel pickup, which I guess most of us here have!, if you cross state lines, at any weight, legally need to get a fuel use permit.
MP
Melvin,
I don't know who told you that but whoever did had no clue what he or she was talking about. That statement is 100% false. It is just one more piece of false truck stop information.
You will never find such a regulation in USDOT or state DOT regulations. If you can find one that supports your statement please post it or post a reference and I will find it and read it.
Fuel use permits are required for big trucks which are exempt from paying fuel taxes at the pump. Big truck owner/operators are required to record and report their annual mileage on each truck, which states that truck operated in, and what percentage of total miles were traveled in each state. The fuel tax permit is the white decal on the driver's side of truck cabs. It requires registration and payment of a fee.
Diesel light trucks like ours pay fuel taxes at the pump. If anyone doubts this just keep your fuel receipts to show any DOT officer who inquires.
I don't know who told you that but whoever did had no clue what he or she was talking about. That statement is 100% false. It is just one more piece of false truck stop information.
You will never find such a regulation in USDOT or state DOT regulations. If you can find one that supports your statement please post it or post a reference and I will find it and read it.
Fuel use permits are required for big trucks which are exempt from paying fuel taxes at the pump. Big truck owner/operators are required to record and report their annual mileage on each truck, which states that truck operated in, and what percentage of total miles were traveled in each state. The fuel tax permit is the white decal on the driver's side of truck cabs. It requires registration and payment of a fee.
Diesel light trucks like ours pay fuel taxes at the pump. If anyone doubts this just keep your fuel receipts to show any DOT officer who inquires.
IN OREGON..... I run one farm-plate vehicle..... carry a cab-card, fuel use permit... . exempts that rig from state fuel tax, pay fed. fuel tax at the pump, just like everybody else. Pay the state fuel tax, which is 30 cents a gallon in Oregon, on a quarterly basis through reports. The state fuel tax situation is pretty easy to deal with, the rest of the regulations governing the farm plate are not. Reciprocity between the States is not very far reaching and I would rather not open that can of worms up on here. Some guys think you can get away with anything with farm plates. WRONG.
Changed my DOT classification to 'interstate' from 'intrastate', got my physical scheduled for Thursday, got all the safety stuff on board already (triangles, extinguisher, lie book, bill of lading, etc. ), ready for my first trucking trip since 1987. The roads don't seem to have changed much since then... . bounce, bounce, bump!
I've never been a farmer of used farm plates but some states give farmers a lot of freedom to do what they need to do in support of farming within a narrow radius of their homes.
Texas, with a huge agriculture component of our economy, allows farmers to use a cheap farm plate and operate ragged old beat up trucks and trailers that would not pass DOT inspections to haul crops, feed, livestock, and equipment without normal DOT compliance. I think they are supposed to be limited to a 150 mile radius of their farms but I don't think that is enforced much either.
Texas, with a huge agriculture component of our economy, allows farmers to use a cheap farm plate and operate ragged old beat up trucks and trailers that would not pass DOT inspections to haul crops, feed, livestock, and equipment without normal DOT compliance. I think they are supposed to be limited to a 150 mile radius of their farms but I don't think that is enforced much either.
I've never been a farmer or used farm plates but some states give farmers a lot of freedom to do what they need to do in support of farming within a narrow radius of their homes.
Texas, which has a huge agriculture component in our economy, allows farmers to use a cheap farm plate and operate ragged old beat up trucks and trailers that would not pass DOT inspections to haul crops, feed, livestock, and equipment without normal DOT compliance. I think they are supposed to be limited to a 150 mile radius of their farms but I don't think that is enforced much either.
Texas, which has a huge agriculture component in our economy, allows farmers to use a cheap farm plate and operate ragged old beat up trucks and trailers that would not pass DOT inspections to haul crops, feed, livestock, and equipment without normal DOT compliance. I think they are supposed to be limited to a 150 mile radius of their farms but I don't think that is enforced much either.
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Farm & Farmer Plates
I have been watching this great thread, and since some farmers chimed in, I think I will too.
Agreed that uniformity appears to be lacking in farm plate reciprocity and DOT regs.
From what I can tell, I might be able to get "farm" plates in PA, and, thanks to lobbying by PA Farm Bureau, be largely exempt from many regulations. However, I couldn't travel the distance back to our place in NJ, especially with any sort of load.
In NJ, I could get "farmer" plates, that is if NJ MVC will sign off on a certification form that lists our PA farm. That would be cool as, according to NJ Farm Bureau, I could use my truck for personal reasons, although I haven't yet found the section of NJ motor regs that explicitly says that. Supposedly, PA and NJ (and NY) have reciprocity with regard to this "farmer" designation too. It's unclear what happens outside that zone though. Would I get pulled over if I drove down to my cousin's farm in Maryland?
OK so that is the "farm" and "farmer" plate thing. Looks like the real trip point is if I were to bring any sort of sizable load across the Delaware River. Unlike George Washington, I could not bring cannons (or in my case switchgrass) from PA into NJ, unless I have a DOT number. That is way crazy for an incidental hauler like me.
What is the upshot to all this?
I chatted with a PA heavy vehicle enforcement officer a few months back, and he told me that they usually leave farmers alone, unless they are doing something incredibly dumb. I also talked to one of the supervisors at NJ MVC about increasing the weight on my truck registration and she said, "you don't need to do that. " Now couple that with better prices at the local PA hay and straw auction for pickup size loads, and the difficulty securely lashing down bales on the gooseneck, well I think my exposure is pretty low, since I probably won't be using the trailer that often. I am just going to leave my registration as-is. Seems like it's opening a giant can of worms to do anything else!
Andy
I have been watching this great thread, and since some farmers chimed in, I think I will too.
Agreed that uniformity appears to be lacking in farm plate reciprocity and DOT regs.
From what I can tell, I might be able to get "farm" plates in PA, and, thanks to lobbying by PA Farm Bureau, be largely exempt from many regulations. However, I couldn't travel the distance back to our place in NJ, especially with any sort of load.
In NJ, I could get "farmer" plates, that is if NJ MVC will sign off on a certification form that lists our PA farm. That would be cool as, according to NJ Farm Bureau, I could use my truck for personal reasons, although I haven't yet found the section of NJ motor regs that explicitly says that. Supposedly, PA and NJ (and NY) have reciprocity with regard to this "farmer" designation too. It's unclear what happens outside that zone though. Would I get pulled over if I drove down to my cousin's farm in Maryland?
OK so that is the "farm" and "farmer" plate thing. Looks like the real trip point is if I were to bring any sort of sizable load across the Delaware River. Unlike George Washington, I could not bring cannons (or in my case switchgrass) from PA into NJ, unless I have a DOT number. That is way crazy for an incidental hauler like me.
What is the upshot to all this?
I chatted with a PA heavy vehicle enforcement officer a few months back, and he told me that they usually leave farmers alone, unless they are doing something incredibly dumb. I also talked to one of the supervisors at NJ MVC about increasing the weight on my truck registration and she said, "you don't need to do that. " Now couple that with better prices at the local PA hay and straw auction for pickup size loads, and the difficulty securely lashing down bales on the gooseneck, well I think my exposure is pretty low, since I probably won't be using the trailer that often. I am just going to leave my registration as-is. Seems like it's opening a giant can of worms to do anything else!
Andy
I have been watching this great thread, and since some farmers chimed in, I think I will too.
Agreed that uniformity appears to be lacking in farm plate reciprocity and DOT regs.
From what I can tell, I might be able to get "farm" plates in PA, and, thanks to lobbying by PA Farm Bureau, be largely exempt from many regulations. However, I couldn't travel the distance back to our place in NJ, especially with any sort of load.
In NJ, I could get "farmer" plates, that is if NJ MVC will sign off on a certification form that lists our PA farm. That would be cool as, according to NJ Farm Bureau, I could use my truck for personal reasons, although I haven't yet found the section of NJ motor regs that explicitly says that. Supposedly, PA and NJ (and NY) have reciprocity with regard to this "farmer" designation too. It's unclear what happens outside that zone though. Would I get pulled over if I drove down to my cousin's farm in Maryland?
OK so that is the "farm" and "farmer" plate thing. Looks like the real trip point is if I were to bring any sort of sizable load across the Delaware River. Unlike George Washington, I could not bring cannons (or in my case switchgrass) from PA into NJ, unless I have a DOT number. That is way crazy for an incidental hauler like me.
What is the upshot to all this?
I chatted with a PA heavy vehicle enforcement officer a few months back, and he told me that they usually leave farmers alone, unless they are doing something incredibly dumb. I also talked to one of the supervisors at NJ MVC about increasing the weight on my truck registration and she said, "you don't need to do that. " Now couple that with better prices at the local PA hay and straw auction for pickup size loads, and the difficulty securely lashing down bales on the gooseneck, well I think my exposure is pretty low, since I probably won't be using the trailer that often. I am just going to leave my registration as-is. Seems like it's opening a giant can of worms to do anything else!
Andy
I think the key thing to understand about this issue is that farmers and ranchers in some states are granted certain exemptions from the ordinary DOT rules and regulations that everyone else is required to comply with.
I have not paid any attention to them in other states and am not an expert on the subject in Texas because, although I live on five acres in the country, I don't raise and sell any crops or livestock so farm exemptions don't apply to me. In Texas I think many of the DOT rules are waived for farmers and ranchers when they are operating within about a 150 mile radius of their farms and ranches.
Generally speaking, when you operate statewide in larger states and in all cases when you operate interstate ie cross state lines you would normally be required to comply with DOT regulations. If neighboring states are willing to overlook or ignore you consider yourself fortunate.
You might be wise to do your due diligence and research the farm exemption rules in each state you will travel. A letter to state DOT or DMV headquarters requesting clarification could be very beneficial if you receive helpful replies that support what you are doing.
If you are operating outside of the regulations and counting on scale operators and DOT enforcement officers to ignore you because someone told you they don't worry about it you could be vulnerable. Some serious DOT officers may not see it that way or the situation could change and you might not know things had changed until you get pulled over, inspected, and handed a long list of citations.
Good advice Harvey, it wouldn't hurt to have a letter in hand, as there are certainly a number of gray areas.
I just put in a couple phone calls to the appropriate folks at NJ Farm Bureau and the NJ Department of Agriculture, to seek further clarification on my "farmer" and "farm" plate cross state questions.
My trailer is having new shackle bolts installed on it at a shop just down the road from a PA State Police office. Maybe I will stop in there and chat with them too. I did that awhile back when transporting an over-width hay rake, and one of the troopers kindly dug through the vehicle code book and found the applicable rule as it pertained to farmers. It was a reassuring feeling to know the allowing section number, and have a trooper's name, just in case!
Andy
I just put in a couple phone calls to the appropriate folks at NJ Farm Bureau and the NJ Department of Agriculture, to seek further clarification on my "farmer" and "farm" plate cross state questions.
My trailer is having new shackle bolts installed on it at a shop just down the road from a PA State Police office. Maybe I will stop in there and chat with them too. I did that awhile back when transporting an over-width hay rake, and one of the troopers kindly dug through the vehicle code book and found the applicable rule as it pertained to farmers. It was a reassuring feeling to know the allowing section number, and have a trooper's name, just in case!
Andy
Here is excerp of ND regs requiring farmers to get a DOT number for a pickup, or any other truck.
I only occassionally cross a state line for farm-related purposes. Do I need a US DOT number?
An exception in 49 CFR Part 390. 3(f)(3) of the federal regulations states a person may make an occasional trip to transport personal property neither for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise. Farming is a commercial enterprise and trips in and out of state to purchase equipment, sell grain or buy fertilizer would require US DOT registration. Likewise, travel out of state to purchase antique tractors for restoration and resale would require US DOT registration as would being hired by an acquaintance to travel out of state to pick up a purchase.
MP
The DOT is for 10,001# and above combo weight. For fuel tax, combo wt. at 26,001# and above, fuel tax permit required.
I only occassionally cross a state line for farm-related purposes. Do I need a US DOT number?
An exception in 49 CFR Part 390. 3(f)(3) of the federal regulations states a person may make an occasional trip to transport personal property neither for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise. Farming is a commercial enterprise and trips in and out of state to purchase equipment, sell grain or buy fertilizer would require US DOT registration. Likewise, travel out of state to purchase antique tractors for restoration and resale would require US DOT registration as would being hired by an acquaintance to travel out of state to pick up a purchase.
MP
The DOT is for 10,001# and above combo weight. For fuel tax, combo wt. at 26,001# and above, fuel tax permit required.
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Subscribe
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