Dot experts

[HBarlow]

Melvin,

Yep, makes perfect sense. That's what I was saying in post # 38 above. Farm plates and other special treatment for farmers is nothing more than a politicians response to a large voting block of farmers. Farmer exemptions allow them within limits to do what nobody else can do.

Crossing state lines is interstate commerce and subject to federal DOT regulations.

None of this means a light truck has to have a fuel tax decal on the cab but DOT rules are very extensive for interstate commerce, even in a light truck grossing under 26k.

 

[Bater]

Melvin, that is a great plain English description of the rule. Thanks for sharing that. I will have to remember the equipment hauling issue when the day comes that I fetch my dad's Massey-Harris tractor from upstate NY. "It's for personal use only, not for use on the farm, and not for resale. " Fortunately that is the truth, so I should be able to spit that out convincingly.

I have pretty much reconciled myself to short distance commodity hauling only, all well within the 150 mile intrastate DOT rule for farmers, and I think for the most part, just with the pickup alone. I must admit though, that I have thought about loading up the gooseneck and bringing it back to NJ to the local coop auction, or even just as a stop on a loop back to one of the PA hay auctions. The good news (bad news) is that the market dynamics just don't seem to support such a trek, and certainly so if I have to incur extra expense for DOT registration etc.

Andy

 

[Rockranch]

About a year ago, several of us, including Mr. Barlow, had a similiar discussion about needing CDL's and other regulations. After about a year of researching, and speaking to anyone in the know, I have figured out what all is required for myself, as a farmer or not, and will share it in another post. It will take me a little time to get it all on paper. Please stay tuned.

 

[Rockranch]

Interstate Driving Rules and Regs. One man's view.

The following information is based on my own research of the appropriate laws and regulations, several conversations with people at the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration at their offices in Texas and Missouri, as well as the main office. I also had several conversations with several different Texas DPS officers that work in Commercial Vehicle Enforcement. The following is what I understand to be required, of me, in my situation, to be in compliance with the law.



My situation: I own a farm in Missery (on the map it appears to be spelled Missouri, but if you have ever lived here…) I also now own a farm in Paradise (on the map it appears to be spelled Texas ). I own the truck in my signature, rated and licensed for 11,500 pounds and a gooseneck trailer rated and licensed for 14,000 pounds with a gross combined weight of 25,500 pounds. If I am hauling anything that could be farm related, across state lines, I am engaging in interstate commerce and must comply with federal interstate commerce laws. In my case that would be paragraph B2, below. If I move farm equipment from one place to the other, it is interstate commerce, even if I am just going to use it at the other farm. If I cut hay on my property in Missery, bale it, load it on my trailer, haul it to my farm in Texas and feed it to my cattle, that is still interstate commerce. I must comply with the things outlined in paragraph B2 below. If I load some hay, or tools, or branding equipment in my truck alone, and drive across state lines, I am subject to interstate commerce rules, since my truck is licensed over 10,001 pounds.



I have a hobby of restoring old metal working machinery (Mills, Lathes, Shapers, etc. ). Since I do not do this for profit, or even to sell them, I do not have to comply with the interstate commerce rules. If I am hauling my own personal property, such as clothing, furniture, books, etc, I am not engaged in any commercial activity and do not need to comply with the interstate commerce rules. That does not mean that I won’t get pulled over and checked, but it does mean that I am not required, BY THE LAW, to comply.



A. Texas Intrastate



Within 150 air miles (172 statute miles) of farm – up to 48,000 pounds without class A license. Farm tagged trailers can only be used for ag purposes, as outlined in Tx law, within the 150 mile limit, as above. Farm tagged trucks are not limited to 150 miles, or ag. uses, but cannot be used to travel to a paying job. Hauling for hire, for any compensation is not farming.



B. Interstate



Crossing a state line, whether farming, or not, doing any sort of business activity, or anything that can be called “in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise”, immediately subjects you to the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration rules. If you are hauling for your own business, they apply. If you are hauling for someone else’s business, they apply. If you are a farmer, some of them apply.



If you are hauling for your own, or someone else’s business, you must have a USDOT number, UCR registration, Operating Authority, possibly the fuel card, drivers Medical card, insurance of at least $750,000, Commercial Vehicle Inspection (DOT inspection) on the truck and trailer, fire extinguishers, triangles, log book for hours of service, Name and USDOT number on both sides of vehicle, etc.



If you are a farmer it is more confusing and depends on your gross combined vehicle weight. This only applies if you are hauling your own farm supplies and equipment. If you haul anything for hire, you no longer fall under these rules. If someone else is paying for the fuel, or buying lunch, or compensating you in any way, shape or form, you are For Hire and no longer farming.



1. Under 10,001 pounds GVW or GCVW. Nobody seems to care what you do. If you have a ½ ton truck and trailer, if you are under 10,001 pounds you do not seem to need to meet any commercial rules, unless you are hauling hazardous materials.





2. 10,001 to 26,000 pounds gross combined vehicle weight (GCVW). There are 3 ways they will check this. Licensed weight, Manufacturers rated weight, or actual weight. You must have a USDOT number and Unified Carrier Registration (UCR). They don’t tell you this, but when you get the DOT number you must get the UCR. The DOT number is free, but the UCR is around $70, depending on how many vehicles you register with DOT. You do not need operating authority and, because of this and being under 26,001, you can use your regular liability insurance. The trucks and trailers that you will use must have a Commercial Vehicle Inspection (DOT Inspection). You must have fire extinguishers, warning triangles and your farm name and USDOT number on both sides of the power unit (Truck). The driver does NOT need a CDL, but must have the Med Card, and logbook to show compliance with the Hours of Service (HOS) as outlined in the FMCSA rules.



3. Over 26,000 pounds GCVW. All the above requirements apply with the addition of the following: Operating authority is required and with that goes the requirement for a minimum insurance of $750,000. Probable registration with the International Fuel Tax Association (IFTA). The driver needs to have a class A CDL. Possible requirement for apportioned plates, but I am not sure.



This is, by no means, meant to be a comprehensive listing and guide to the federal regulations. I am merely trying to show the complexity and far reaching scope of the joys of complying with interstate travel, as experienced by one TDR member. I am certain that I have left something out, due to pure ignorance of the requirements. I am equally sure that there are those out there that will disagree with something I have written. Please keep in mind that these are the things that I have been told I must do, by professional law enforcement officers and FMCSA administrators, to be in compliance.

 

[HBarlow]

I read your post and consider it well thought out, well explained, and accurate.

I would only nitpick one part and that's the comment about truck AND trailer under 10k lbs. in Para B 1. I think you tossed that line out as sort of a throw away comment and didn't mean it to be scrutinized.

Under 10k is generally going to mean a 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton pickup without a trailer.

Modern 1/2 ton trucks, which I haven't even glanced at in years due to complete lack of interest, probably have a 7,500 lb. GVWR, perhaps higher.

Any tandem axle flat bed utility trailer is probably going to have a minimum 5,000 lb. GVWR, more likely it will have a 7,000 lb. GVWR. Even a single axle trailer probably has a 3,000 lb. GVWR.

My point is just about any 1/2 ton pickup and light duty trailer would probably put the owner above 10k lbs. and move the owner into your paragraph B 2.

Good job on your rules summary. It will be basically new information to many who think they can just blow by the scales and nobody will notice.

I have an old Navy buddy who grew up in Missery and lives in Shell Knob now. I have visited him there many times. It is a beautiful area of green trees, the Ozark Hills, and the fantastic Table Rock Lake (I think that's the correct name). Your labels of Missery and Paradise would really make him mad. He gets real upset when I make fun of Missery but it is so miserable hot and humid I can't stand the summers there and he can't stand the winters because several months of cold and humidity often cause ice storms that knock the power out for days at a time. He hooks up his fifth wheel and moves to AZ ever winter for five months.

 

[Rockranch]

Thank you Harvey. Coming from you that is high praise and I appreciate it.



I suppose I could have worded that line differently. I thought I was clear, but perhaps not. When I wrote "If you have a ½ ton truck and trailer, if you are under 10,001 pounds... " I was suggesting that if you have the 1/2 ton truck and trailer and the GCVW was under 10,001 pounds that one didn't need to comply...



Hopefully, we have made that clearer for the next person that sees how long that post is and doesn't go running for the hills. ; )

 

[Bater]

Rockranch, thank you for taking the time to write up the Interstate Driving Rules & Regs. It's an excellent compendium.



For myself I am still thinking my best bet is to just avoid interstate operation with a trailer load of bales. On the other hand, as I review the list of requirements for annual medical and eye exams, fire extinguisher, safety triangles, etc, I realize that I am already doing them anyway. Will have to chat with the primary care doc and optometrist to see if they are familiar with these forms. I also see that there are a number of companies manufacturing magnetic DOT signs, seems like they would be ideal for a once in a blue moon hauler like me.



I need to learn more about the commercial vehicle inspection requirement, as I have no experience with that one. Plan to speak to the shop working on my gooseneck springs, as they do PA heavy vehicle inspections. Part of the reason I took this old trailer there versus just doing the work myself. (I had already corrected all the lighting, added the proper reflective tape, and replaced the breakaway switch and safety chains. )



Now to just get some official answers on my PA-NJ bifurcated "farm" - "farmer" plate dilemma!



Andy

 

[HBarlow]

Larry,

The Commercial Vehicle Inspection is one of the easiest requirements to comply with if you have good equipment.

It's been several years since I had one but what I remember is the basic lights, horn, brakes, tires, windshield and wiper inspections that all vehicles must meet plus the fire extinguisher mounted in the truck, reflective triangles carried, anything in the bed properly secured, no window tint on driver's/passenger's doors, no tint eyebrow, etc. A decent brake controller and seven pin female connector would be required of course.

The inspector might measure tire tread depth if tires are worn but the standard is easy - 4/32nds on steers and 2/32nds on drivers unless it has changed. The items you mentioned for the trailer plus tires but they could inspect brake shoes, spring shackles and bolts, still basic safety issues.

An old scale operator walked out to the scale from his comfortable stool once to check to see how I was securing the brake away switch lanyard of a fifthwheel I was towing. I had it secured to its own mount which was what he was checking. The lanyard loop must be secured separate from the hitch.

 

[Rockranch]

Andy,



You are welcome. I just hope this helps the OP with his friend "Bob".



As far as the Med exam, Your primary care doctor can do the whole thing, including the eye exam. I had my PCD, at the VA, do mine. I got familiar with the forms and walked him through. There are some labs that need to be drawn, so make sure that you schedule those, as well.



The magnetic signs are great. Put them on when needed to comply, take them off when not hauling "commercial". Just make sure that the letters are at least 2" tall and the sign has your farm name (if not filing your schedule F under your own name, use whatever name is reistered for the farm) and DOT number/s.



In Texas, the DOT inspections are done by state approved/licensed shops and the cost is $62/vehicle or trailer. Shops are listed on the Texas DPS web site. Check you states web site and see if some shops are listed. If not, check some local truck shops. Here in Missery, I checked with some local shops and was quoted between $80-$100 dollars/vehicle or trailer. Much of the inspection doesn't apply to our trucks and trailers, because we just don't have the equipment to check. No air brakes, etc.



Good luck,

Larry

 

[Rockranch]

Harvey,



Does the breakaway need it's own, completely seperate connection, or can it be attached to the same place as the safety chains? I can certainly understand not attaching it to the gooseneck itself, as if the GN comes loose then the lanyard doesn't pull against anything. I was shown to connect it to that same place as the safety chains are connected in the bed.



Perhaps, sometime when you are visiting your friend in Missery, you could let me know and I'll come down for a meet and greet. It would be nice to put a face with the name.



Thanks,

Larry

 

[HBarlow]

Larry,

I think the safety breakaway lanyard could be attached to any secure attachment point including the location where the safety chains are secured.

If I visit him sometime this year I'll try to remember to pm you to tell you when.

 

[Rockranch]

Sounds good, Harvey. Take care.

 

[zzman]

I thought a CDL was needed for any type of commercial hauling.

Over 26,001 lbs required a class A

Over 10k to 26k required a class B

Hauling people a chauffer licence

That's just what I thought.



farm use was exempt I thought

 

[HBarlow]

No, that's not the way it works at all.

A CDL A is only required when gross vehicle weight ratings or actual weights for combined loads (truck and trailer) exceed 26,000 lbs and the trailer exceeds 10k.

A driver can legally haul commerical loads in 48 states and Canada year after year if his actual or rated weights remain no greater than 26k. Numerous other requirements must be complied with but a CDL is not required.

A CDL Class B is required for single vehicles exceeding 26k.

Farmers are granted exemptions for some of the rules but normally intrastate only and within 150 mile radius of their farms.

You can easily answer all your own questions and read what I just wrote by picking up a free copy of the Texas Commercial Driver's Handbook at any DPS licensing office.

 

[Bater]

Crossing over to the "DOT Side"

Yesterday I got my New Jersey "Farmer" plates. This required having the applicable NJ cooperative extension agent provide a certificate that I am an actual farmer. Fortunately, that agent turned out to be someone I know pretty well; I was in his first class of Master Gardeners about ten years ago. Since then I have helped him out a number of times, including a few days of grunt work associated with his tomato research at Rutgers Snyder Farm. (He didn't hold it against me that I now "volunteer" on my own Pennsylvania farm. )



With these "Farmer" plates I have also changed my registered weight. Heretofore my registration listed a "GW" of 7092, as apparently NJ only registers on a GVWR basis. However, as part of my education process on "Farmer" plates, I got a copy of a letter from the Chief Administrator of the NJ Motor Vehicle Commission to the NJ Department of Agriculture. That letter informed that trucks that tow should substitute GCWR for GVWR. So I asked the clerk to enter my truck's 21000 GCWR rating. She said "I don't think it will take, it's higher than the max value in the field". The good news is that it did take, and now my registration reflects the towing capacity of my truck. The bad news is that I am paying a higher fee, although somewhat offset with the "Farmer" registration discount.



Now since my NJ "Farmer" plates are considered commercial, and I am trekking back and forth to our PA farm, last night I went ahead and made FMCSA application for and received a DOT number. Still thinking this is crazy for a little guy like me, but that is what the rules seem to say I have to do. It's on to figuring out the most straightforward way to navigate the medical, inspection, labeling, and logging requirements!



Andy



PS I just got a DOT sticker on my gooseneck trailer. Pretty painless. Truck is next I guess

 

[HBarlow]

Sounds good.

The commercial driver's physical and eye exam can be done by your regular physician if he's willing or you can get a quickie that you'll pass if your breath will fog a mirror (Bill Stockard's definition) from a quack with an md from mexico or the middle east in a rented office in a low rent strip mall near a truck stop.

The driver's log is easy. You can buy the log books for a few dollars at any truck stop and the instructions are in the log book. Some of us here who have kept driver's logs can help you.

Basically, you'll need to record at least one full day off duty on the day before you haul and log vehicle inspection as on duty not driving before you drive each day. Then record start location and stop location for each period of driving. You can log no more than eleven hours of driving each day and no more than fourteen hours combined on duty not driving and driving each day.

You must record at least ten hours off duty each day to start the duty/driving cycle again. It is illegal for a commercial driver to sleep in his truck unless he has a genuine DOT sleeper like a big truck. Keep a motel receipt or have a convincing story of staying with a friend. I've seen drivers busted for sleeping in their trucks.

Unless the regs have changed since I quit driving you total up your driving hours each day and during the driving week and cannot exceed seventy hours before taking another day off to restart the log.

It's pretty simple. Even old retiree RV transporters (and truck drivers) can do it.

I had the same argument about registering a new Ram dually at 26k lbs with the title clerk in the dealership where I buy Dodges. She told me I couldn't do it. I tried polititely to explain for awhile then told her to just do what I told her to do or she would be trying to explain to the dealership owner why I walked out without completing the transaction on a truck I ordered and wanted. The vehicle registration and tax office at the court house was happy to register it at 26k, of course.

 

[d6c]

At least in Oregon... . the farm desk at head office DMV handles all this... I've done the hay hauling-farm plate thing for years myself. You really need to do some scale work to see if 21k is going to be enough..... My little rig is licensed at 26k, which allows about 11k of payload, if you can get it in the right place. Big rectangular, flat top loads help the tie down situation... . Corner boards, 4" truck winches on the front of the trailer for front to backs and 2" straps for side to side will go a long ways to keeping the loads on the trailer. BTW... the farm plates allow you to register above 26k, you just get a farm-endorsement on your driver license.

 

[Bater]

Thank you for the comments Harvey & d6c. Much appreciated.



According to Dodge my truck's max GCWR is 21000, so that is what I used. I believe that works out about right, as I think the truck is around 7100 and my trailer is licensed at 14000. I don't think I am in danger of exceeding that, as the switchgrass I am most likely to carry is light like straw. I am also a bit limited as an SRW, since I need to be careful on tongue weight.



Good tips on stacking bales on the trailer. I admit to needing more experience on that to guarantee a tight load. Last time I ended up adding extra straps, very time consuming. It makes me wonder how some of the loads that show up at the hay auction actually make it there. Fortunately hay bales tend to have a bit of a Velcro action against each other. (It's the trucks with double-stacked wrapped round bales that really scare me. I have seen a couple of those where I am convinced with a panic stop the upper bale(s) would roll over the top of the cab. )



Yea I need to divine the right path for the logging aspect. I suspect for the most part I could claim the farmer's within distance exemption and not bother. There appears to be some provision for using the pickup for personal non freight usage too. But those exemptions (including things like avoiding the medical) seem to go out the window once I hook up the trailer. It's looking like the safest bet is to have some sort of driving log, even though apparently it would only be required the handful of times a year I have a gooseneck load of farm commodities.



Andy

 

[HBarlow]

Andy,

Yes, you're correct. You only become "commercial" and require a driver's log when you hook up the trailer but to satisfy a DOT logs check you will have to log at least one day before and after each trip.

I think the way to do it properly is to combine the first day following a trip with the last day before the next one and log off duty, all on one page.

With DOT numbers and meeting other DOT requirements you can legally register up to and including 26k pounds.

Each additional 100 pounds will cost you a few dollars for registration and ultimately your pair of single rear tires will limit what you can actually carry and tow so you have no need to overdo it.

You want to avoid registering for 21k then being weighed across a scale a 21,800 or anything in excess of registered weight. Any excess will earn you a citation.

 

[d6c]

I guess maybe I should explain a couple things... . My srw Dodge actually has Oregon T-plates, which are limited to a max. of 26k, you can do a smaller # and pay less per year... 26k is $764 for 12 months. From my experience you need all of 26k if you are single tire... . disregard your actual light weight... . add your axle capacities up for your combo. will get you in the ballpark. My Ford 450 with a tandem dual trailer runs farm plates at 34k... . my lightweight is about 19. 5k... . much more secure hauler stabiltity wise. I've got about 37k worth of axles and should really bump up my weight. Be real careful about the farm plate use... . talk to the people you got the plates from and get the reciprocal state and province list... it is real short... and the rig,even empty, is no longer legal outside of those areas. BTW, no cdl required, air brakes or not, clear to 105. 5k, with the farm endorsement on my driver's license, only necessary because I am above 26k registered weight with the Ford. Lots of details to this stuff, this whole thing started for me with trailers in oregon above 8k gvwr needing t or f plates, no car plates allowed, even though I see lots of guys still doing it.