Dot experts

[MelvinPierce]

Andy,



Yes, you're correct. You only become "commercial" and require a driver's log when you hook up the trailer but to satisfy a DOT logs check you will have to log at least one day before and after each trip.

I believe you need to show duty status for at least 34 hours prior to beginning the trip, to show that you have reset your hours. So, if you leave before 10AM, you would need the previous two days.



Also, not sure why you would need to log the day AFTER driving? I have never heard that. Why would you?

 

[HBarlow]

You're probably right about recording 34 hours before starting a trip to prove you took a full day off and reset your log. I was never in that situation when I was keeping a log. I ran hard every day unless I stopped by my home for two days to introduce myself to my wife again. When I did that I logged actual time off.

I suggested logging the day following as "off duty" to establish when he was back home and off his log book so he would not forget and begin logging "on duty" and "driving" when he started logging again.

He could draw his lines showing off duty but could wait until he started driving again to record the begin and end dates of his off duty period.

 

[mwilson]

Any log books I have ever had to maintain and turn in require the previous 7 or 8 days be filled in, even if you didn't do any driving.

Without that there is not an accurate picture for the LEO's or your safety department to determine the hours available to you for that day you begin driving. That is based on the old 70 hours in 8 days format.



When I do the occasional truck retrieval for this company I fill in the previous 8 days even though 5 or 6 of those days are put in here at the parts room.



When I went out to get the Cascadia truck in Albuquerque last fall I was stopped in Missouri by a weight / commercial officer and although I passed muster he did tell me that I should have logged my time flying out to get the truck as well as driving it.

Whoops... ... . :-laf



Mike.

 

[HBarlow]

Mike,

That requirement would probably be because you didn't log at least 34 hours off duty before you picked up the FL you drove back to ME. You were on duty not driving when you flew to ABQ.

 

[mwilson]

Mike,



That requirement would probably be because you didn't log at least 34 hours off duty before you picked up the FL you drove back to ME. You were on duty not driving when you flew to ABQ.

That is probably just what it was.



I told him that I was on vacation and was performing the trip without pay.



He questioned my sanity (as many have before) and he allowed that I must be pretty damn desperate to go for a ride...



I think that's when he gave up on trying to ticket me for anything, what I had done to myself was punishment enough... ... .



I know the hours of service rules have changed since I was driving for a living. For example I used to be able to run 4 hours driving / 4 hours resting and so on until I hit my 70 hour limit.

I understand now that you cannot do that anymore.



I do need to review the newest log book regulations.



The only way I could keep it right back in the day was to use the hours on duty and driving summary thingy that was always printed inside of the cover.

That would keep you on track and out of trouble every time if you filled it out faithfully before starting out for the day.





Mike.

 

[KLauber]

Thanks for all the great info. Every scale was closed during my trip to MD!

 

[KLauber]

You lie!

That is probably just what it was.



I told him that I was on vacation and was performing the trip without pay.



He questioned my sanity (as many have before) and he allowed that I must be pretty damn desperate to go for a ride...



I think that's when he gave up on trying to ticket me for anything, what I had done to myself was punishment enough... ... .



I know the hours of service rules have changed since I was driving for a living. For example I used to be able to run 4 hours driving / 4 hours resting and so on until I hit my 70 hour limit.

I understand now that you cannot do that anymore.



I do need to review the newest log book regulations.



The only way I could keep it right back in the day was to use the hours on duty and driving summary thingy that was always printed inside of the cover.

That would keep you on track and out of trouble every time if you filled it out faithfully before starting out for the day.





Mike.

Mike we called it a liebook not a logbook back in the old days (1979)!

 

[HBarlow]

That is probably just what it was.

I told him that I was on vacation and was performing the trip without pay.

He questioned my sanity (as many have before) and he allowed that I must be pretty damn desperate to go for a ride...

I think that's when he gave up on trying to ticket me for anything, what I had done to myself was punishment enough... ... .

I know the hours of service rules have changed since I was driving for a living. For example I used to be able to run 4 hours driving / 4 hours resting and so on until I hit my 70 hour limit.
I understand now that you cannot do that anymore.

I do need to review the newest log book regulations.

The only way I could keep it right back in the day was to use the hours on duty and driving summary thingy that was always printed inside of the cover.
That would keep you on track and out of trouble every time if you filled it out faithfully before starting out for the day.


Mike.

I'd hate to present that log book at a scale or roadside inspection!

 

[Bater]

The more I learn, the more I realize how sketchy some folks operating mode must be

... we called it a liebook not a logbook back in the old days (1979)!

I can see why this record would get that moniker. I do understand the intent though, definitely not good to drive tired. In my case it's a fine trip wire.

• Work a number of days in a row on the farm, then drive truck and trailer 45 miles to a nearby hay and straw auction. That seems to be OK, no record keeping necessary.
• Work a number of days in a row on the farm, then drive truck and trailer 150 miles to a more distant hay and straw auction (where I might get better prices). That is bad, record needs to show I am properly rested.

Hoping to get as much of this right as I can, so that if I do get stopped, I come across as at least trying to adhere to the law. Truck had its DOT inspection this morning. Doc's office knew exactly what I was talking about for the medical form, that exam is tomorrow.

Oh and for d6c, good reminder that these farm plates have limited my zone of operation. NJ has reciprocal agreements with all the nearby states that I normally drive in. Unfortunately the trip I took to Rhode Island last fall to pick up a flail mower would have been a no-no. I guess in the future I will have to take the '91 for any such jaunt. (And some earplugs and aspirin for my sore back, it's not the comfiest truck. )

Andy

 

[mwilson]

I'd hate to present that log book at a scale or roadside inspection!

The old 4 on / 4 off thing worked really well, but you had to have a bunk on the truck, not acceptable in a day cab.

Team drivers often logged the same way.



I'm talking late 70's, early 80's here.



No, I used the daily hours available along with the log book. If you always keep the daily tally you know that you only have "x" number of hours available before you start your day. That's why I mentioned doing the full 8 days previous to the trip.



Mike.

 

[GAmes]

No, I used the daily hours available along with the log book. If you always keep the daily tally you know that you only have "x" number of hours available before you start your day. That's why I mentioned doing the full 8 days previous to the trip.

Quite a few changes since then. Now, if you take 34 consecutive hours off duty/sleeper it doesn't matter what you did the last 8 days, thus the "34 hour restart". You can no longer break up your duty day with sleeper time. Now there is a 14 hour window to complete the maximum 11 hours of driving, the on duty not driving for fuel stops and the off duty time for meals and bathroom breaks. Once that 14 hours has elapsed there is a mandatory 10 hour off duty/sleeper period. Of course, it is not mandatory to have a 14 hour day. If you stop after, say 8 hours, you can commence another duty day 10 hours later. There have been new hours of service rules approved by the FMCSA. When they take effect there will be a mandatory 30 minute off duty break within 7 hours of going on duty. 34 hour restarts will have to include two consecutive 1 AM to 5 AM periods. Only one 34 hour restart allowed in a 7 day period. They also cleared up the supposed rule against sleeping in your truck without a DOT sleeper, a rule that was mis-interpreted by many LEOs and drivers.

 

[mwilson]

That looks far more simple than it used to be.



It used to be a complete PITA to spend the day doing local work in Boston, a lot of dock time wasted there. Then head for Jersey with a load. Had to be real careful with your not driving, on duty time. Having a flat 14 hours available in a row would make it far easier to log then 10 hours back in the day.



Now that 34 hour restart isn't going to do me any good if I have worked 10 hours a day at the dealership for 4 days, then strike off in a truck. I still need to show the previous 8 days or I will be in violation, right??? I was not "OFF".



Do they still require the pre-trip be logged every day??

That got to be a precious chunk of time by the end of the week even at a 1/4hour per day.

Also had to flag tire checks every 2 hours but I would not change status to do a 5 minute rig check 4-5 times a day.



I assume that it is still 70 hours in 8 days or 60 hours in 7 days same as always??



Mike.

 

[GAmes]

Now that 34 hour restart isn't going to do me any good if I have worked 10 hours a day at the dealership for 4 days, then strike off in a truck. I still need to show the previous 8 days or I will be in violation, right??? I was not "OFF".



Do they still require the pre-trip be logged every day??

That got to be a precious chunk of time by the end of the week even at a 1/4hour per day.

Also had to flag tire checks every 2 hours but I would not change status to do a 5 minute rig check 4-5 times a day.



I assume that it is still 70 hours in 8 days or 60 hours in 7 days same as always??

Correct on the restart.



On-Duty Time – § 395. 2

On-duty time means all time from the time a driver begins work or is required to be in readiness for work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibilities for performing work. Performing other compensated work for a person who is not a motor carrier is also on-duty time. The complete definition of on-duty time can be found in § 395. 2.



So if you worked for 4 days, but had 34 hours off previous to that you would only have to show the last 5 days.



Yup, still have to show pretrip. I also only log 15 minutes, but that is about 10 minutes more than I need in a pickup.



I have heard of the load/truck insp requirement,but don't have a reference to it. I don't show it and have never been asked about it during level 1 or level 3 inspections.



About the flags for short stops. I found out that simply dropping a flag with just a location is not sufficient. The flag must show some time and the location, i. e. , TX I 35 mm 334 5 minutes.



Yup, still 70 hours/8 days or 60 hours/7 days.



Current regs; http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/documents/brochure-part-395.pdf



New regs; Hours-of-Service (HOS) Final Rule (December 2011) - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

 

[Bater]

Getting there...

Making progress on getting all "DOT" squared away.

I now have a confirmed DOT number, got the medical certificate, both truck and trailer have been DOT inspected, and a friend is going to make the lettering and numbers for the side.

The logging thing, well still learning. Thanks for all the comments above on that, very helpful for a guy like me with zip experience with that area.

This morning, when I did my "new entrant" confirmation review with the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, they suggested I call the NJ State Police Transportation Safety Bureau to ask my farmer logbook questions. Subsequently I talked to a couple very nice troopers. Salient points so far are:

• The NJ state trooper doesn't expect you to have everything correct and in place when he does the "new entrant" inspection. That is why he is coming, to review the applicable rules. (I got a more serious "you better be squared away first" feel from the FMCSA website/paperwork. )
• Fortunately, as a farmer, I am exempt from needing a drug testing program. (Wonder how as a sole operator I would do that anyhow?)
• NJ troopers go by the GVWR on the truck, or with load, for the logging requirement. Under 10001, no trailer tongue load, no log. Over 10001 on sticker or with load, and in my case over 150 air miles with the farmer exemption, I need a log.

Uh oh, that last one could be tricky, because as a 3500 SRW my truck door jamb sticker has a GVWR at 10100 lbs. Seems like I could have to log even if the truck is empty and not towing the gooseneck? Maybe a 2500 would have been a better vehicle choice after all?

In any case, much more comfortable now that I know the trooper is coming to work with me on determining what I need, and not to fine me if I don't have everything letter perfect!

Andy

 

[HBarlow]

Andy,

You'll do fine for your initial inspection and in the future. Your knowledge and preparation is already a mile ahead of many who have been commercial drivers for years.

DOT law enforcement ALWAYS considers rated or actual weight. In other words if your truck or combination truck and trailer is empty they will consider rated weight on each ie GVWR tags as actual because "you could be carrying that much weight". Your truck weighs 10,100 in the eyes of DOT so follow the rules as if its loaded.

 

[JMDancoe]

Bob: Now that you have presumably read all of these, I will simply say "KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid" (not implying you are). I am sure you have heard that old expression. It applies very well here. Unless you have a large bank account and enjoy sharing it with our various governmental bodies, Do Not Haul For Hire!!! You don't want to pay the fines and or the related costs to be legal. Then add to that, if you have an accident involving another vehicle, "while hauling illegal", Jail time is not unheard of, depending on the severity of the accident. Your standard insurance will, most likely, not pay the bill. Which means, of course, your home, property, bank accounts, etc. become fair game for a greedy attorney. Please do yourself a favor and THINK it through.

 

[AMcCormick]

so lets say Bob has a 2500 truck with a vehicle weight rating of 9,000lbs and a tow rating of 12,800lbs with a trailer weight rating of 17,000lbs. This comes in at 26,000lbs combined weight rating. Now if the actual loaded weight of the trailer does not exceed 12,800 and he has a DOT number and I think it was a UCR card he is legal to tow for hire? Does DOT look at the trucks factory tow rating or are they only looking at the combined weight ratings and the actual weight? If the trailer is rated at 18,000 but actual loaded weight is less he is not legal?

 

[HBarlow]

so lets say Bob has a 2500 truck with a vehicle weight rating of 9,000lbs and a tow rating of 12,800lbs with a trailer weight rating of 17,000lbs. This comes in at 26,000lbs combined weight rating. Now if the actual loaded weight of the trailer does not exceed 12,800 and he has a DOT number and I think it was a UCR card he is legal to tow for hire?

No. Your question implies "is that all he needs?" The answer is no. Read the entire thread then refine your question.

Does DOT look at the trucks factory tow rating or are they only looking at the combined weight ratings and the actual weight? If the trailer is rated at 18,000 but actual loaded weight is less he is not legal?

DOT LEOs do not know or care what the factory ratings are. That question has been answered 20 or 30 times already including in this thread. With an ordinary drivers license DOT considers actual weight as well as GVWR.

 

[AMcCormick]

I understand that "is not all he will need". Just trying to confirm the weights and I think that I have.

Would it be possible to to get a new weight rating for a old used trailer? Would want to get a lower weight rating for the trailer to stay under the 26,000 cut off point. Could the manufacture of said trailer print out a new lower weight rating certificate? Actual loaded weight will be less than the weight rating. It is more of a size issue than a weight issue. I am aware of over size loads and permits.

 

[HBarlow]

Generally speaking the answer is no.

A manufacturer could sell a trailer with a lower rated GVWR and, I suppose, if it is a small manufacturer and the company is willing, they could print a new VIN tag with a new lower GVWR. I don't know if any would be willing. You could ask.